Prophecy and History

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ewq1938

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No, that is not my argument, that every Jew will accept Christ. My argument is that a large majority of Jews will accept Christianity as the standard for their nation, just as many European nations did in history.

Almost the same thing and still isn't supported by scripture.



Many nations became Christian when the leadership or the government embraced Christianity. The leadership sometimes adopts what it thinks is good for the country and will be accepted by the country. Over time, however, the leadership and the country capitulate to tolerance for minorities within the country that want something else.

In the Millennial Kingdom, the same forces will be at play. However, the international dynamics will change, since hostile nations will have been broken in the spiritual world. There will be insufficient support for resistance to God's word in the hearts of all nations.

I still see no scriptural support. Scripture does say he will rule in the midst of his enemies, which doesn't match any form of global conversion to Christ.



When Christian nations return to Christ, and when Israel comes to Christ, it will be a conscientious choice by the majority of the people with much less resistance to religious dogmatism. Independence from religious "coercion" will not find support in societies that wish to be blessed of God.

I've given my evidence for the mass conversion of Israel at the coming of Christ many times. It begins with Gen 12-17, where God promised Abraham a nation of his descendants.

That is not support.


It continues through the Prophets where it is reaffirmed that Israel will continue despite her setbacks.

This also does not support your claim of a national Jewish conversion. Israel has been purged, and added to according to scripture.




You shouldn't base your whole argument on truths that all Christians believe, or on a single metaphor, which can easily be misunderstood. Israel had the original calling, and in Paul's time it would appear that Gentiles are coming to Israel in their conversion. But the purpose has always been to form *many nations,* without actually joining Israel's membership.

Spiritually speaking, gentiles do join Israel through grafting. It also loses some natural branches due to disbelief.
 

Randy Kluth

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Almost the same thing and still isn't supported by scripture.

I still see no scriptural support. Scripture does say he will rule in the midst of his enemies, which doesn't match any form of global conversion to Christ.

That is not support.

This also does not support your claim of a national Jewish conversion. Israel has been purged, and added to according to scripture.

Spiritually speaking, gentiles do join Israel through grafting. It also loses some natural branches due to disbelief.
I get it. Anything you disagree with "isn't supported by Scripture?"
 

ewq1938

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I get it. Anything you disagree with "isn't supported by Scripture?"

You haven't offerred any scripture for this idea that most Jews worldwide will accept Christ in the endtimes.
 

Randy Kluth

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You haven't offerred any scripture for this idea that most Jews worldwide will accept Christ in the endtimes.
I have offered Scriptural evidence for the future mass conversion of Israel many times. There are probably no Scriptures I can give you that you will accept as either evidence or proof? However, there are many, many Christians who would side with me, that Israel will be fully restored as a nation. That will require a mass conversion.

Zech 13.2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land."

Acts 1.6 6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.
 

ewq1938

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I have offered Scriptural evidence for the future mass conversion of Israel many times. There are probably no Scriptures I can give you that you will accept as either evidence or proof? However, there are many, many Christians who would side with me, that Israel will be fully restored as a nation. That will require a mass conversion.

Zech 13.2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land."


Nothing about faithless Israel accepting Christ.


Acts 1.6 6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Obviously this is not evidence.


Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.


Israel would be composed of natural branches and Gentile branches. Today Israel is restored, and is 100 percent composed of Christians. There are no non-Christians in Israel. Non-Christians are not Israel, having been removed.
 

Jay Ross

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You haven't offered any scripture for this idea that most Jews worldwide will accept Christ in the endtimes.

Actually this was offered: -
Zech 13.2 “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land."

and it is a part of gathering of the Israelites to God. However, it is also the reason why during the seventh age that it will be easier for the Saints, i.e., Gentile Christians and Israelites, to evangelise and win souls to God.

However, passages like Ezekiel 34:11-31 speak of Israel being gathered, but they will be planted in the Soil of Israel, i.e., Christ, and will be taught on the mountain, i.e., religion, i.e., of Israel, i.e., Christ. Even Moses wrote in like manner.

At present with our existing translation, the idea that most Jews will accept Christ in the end times is hidden from us by the so called "scholarly translators." When is the end times? I would suggest the seventh age encompasses the last portion of the end times which we all will enter into in the near future.

Shalom
 

ewq1938

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Actually this was offered: -


I don't see that being related to unbelievers suddenly accepting Christ in the end times, or even the day of the second coming. Reading the entire passage in context also does not sound like anything related to the second coming found in the NT.
 

ewq1938

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Well, Israel doesn't really have "idols" anymore

They are no different than they were in Christ's day, and the disciples days. They reject Christ and the religion is still dominated by the same Pharisee-like beliefs and practices.

Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
 

Jay Ross

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I don't see that being related to unbelievers suddenly accepting Christ in the end times, or even the day of the second coming. Reading the entire passage in context also does not sound like anything related to the second coming found in the NT.

Oh well I tried to provide the evidence, but if you only consult the translations, then you will miss what the actual context of the source language documents provides. As for your understanding of the Book of Revelations, it misses the mark by more than a country mile.

Armageddon is near future; the heavenly hosts will be judged in heaven at this time as are the kings of the earth on the earth. They will then be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years. Satan, the beast(s), the False Prophet and the kings of the earth are all judged at the same time. The beast and the false prophet are not dispatched into the lake of fire until after they are released from the Bottomless pit.

Unless you have this understanding, then any further discussion is pointless.
 

ewq1938

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Armageddon is near future


No, it isn't. The GT has to start and end which is within the 6th trump, then the 7th has to sound, and then the first 6 vials of God's wrath have to pour before the army of the beast even travels to Armageddon.

Since when did Rev 11 happen? It's events have to happen before Armageddon does.

The first vial affects those with the MOB. I don't see the AC nor see him forcing worship of the image nor giving out the mark. The off by a country mile applies to you.
 

Brakelite

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10 = COMPLETION, the 10 = All Europe Completely Reunited.
KJV Daniel 2:43
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The attempts at the union which you claim as a future certainty is doomed to failure. Clovis failed, Charlemagne failed, Louis 14th failed, Hitler failed, the modern EEC has failed. Europe cannot unite, even though the seed of men has made every King and Queen in Europe cousins.
I agree however there will be 10 divisions who will unite to give power to the beast, but these will be global divisions based on arbitrary administrative reasons tied to geography, not any union based on ideology or shared religion or philosophy. I think that fire a short time at the end they will unite superficially out of fear, desperately hoping the beast/Antichrist can save the world.
The Antichrist will oppose the faith and lead the post-Christian world to convert to paganism.
Ever considered the Antichrist as being a counterfeit Christian movement enforcing it's own brand of Christian morality on the world? Not a beast making the world pagan, but an Antichrist making the world "Christian" after is own image and likeness?
No, everything in the bible points to a Pre Trib Rapture, its not even debatable, God has only one truth, it always jibes. The 2 Thess. 2 verses is the easiest to understand because we are told what Paul is speaking about in vs. 1 a GATHERING unto Christ, nowhere in the whole passage (I challenge you to find it) is there any place where FAITH being DEPARTED is spoken of. The first 7 English translations had departed, the Latin Vulgate, around for 1000 years before the KJV had Discessio (means to depart also)
The falling away in verse 3 speaks of that which all the early church fathers feared, and which they understood as being held at bay by the present rule of pagan Rome. So long as the church was being persecuted and threatened by the kings of the world, it grew stronger and trusted in God to defend it. Which He did. The gospel spread to all the world, and God's kingdom grew and flourished. But in Rome, when Constantine abandoned the city for Istanbul, renaming it Constantinople, it left a vacuum which the bishops of Rome gladly filled, but which brought with it a list for power and greed for status and the baubles of office. They began to trust in political power to establish their religion, and that "falling away" Paul spoke of, was a divorce... Apostasy... From God, they committing fornication with the kings and queens of Europe, attempting to unite the old empire politically, and failed. Randy agrees...
The early Church Fathers interpreted Paul to say, in 2 Thes 2, that the imperial Roman Govt. would be the "Restrainer" holding back this eventual fragmentation into smaller states before Antichrist rises to reform them into a new Empire.
That Antichrist that arose, was the papacy.


How did that list morph into the Holy Roman Empire?
3 of the ten were uprooted under the influence and watch of Papal Rome, the remaining 7 spoken of as the iron and clay but unable to unite.
 

Brakelite

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But no matter what one says you guys have chosen not to.
That's not entirely correct. Since the doctrine of the secret pre-trib rapture was first espoused, Christians have discussed and debated it. It hasn't been a merry of folks just not listening. People, myself included, have looked at the topic with all seriousness, and at one time believed as you do now. More careful study of scripture and history has changed some minds. May I presume you are also a fan of dispensationalism? Did you know the roots of that hermeneutic began to take shape in the counter reformation with the teachings and writings the Jesuit priest and doctor of theology, Fransisco Ribera. This was reinforced by Jesuit cardinal Robert Bellarmine. Their combined efforts was followed up by the protestant, Darby, followed by Schofield, until today almost the entire Christian world has been deceived by the very Antichrist himself, who has been around for 1600 years, but has everyone believing he hasn't arrived yet. Not only so, the protestant world now accepts that the future imaginary Antichrist won't even be a bother, seeing the church will be "raptured away" before he comes.
The reformers had the true Antichrist dead to rights. The only defence the papacy had was to change the way in which Protestantism interpreted scripture. And you, among numerous others, continue the deception by teaching Jesuit philosophy and lies.
 

Randy Kluth

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Ever considered the Antichrist as being a counterfeit Christian movement enforcing it's own brand of Christian morality on the world? Not a beast making the world pagan, but an Antichrist making the world "Christian" after is own image and likeness?
It's pretty easy to look back on the history of Christendom to see what Antichrists have been there, from pagan Rome to barbarian invasions to Islam, to cult groups, to corrupt Popes, to brutal political leaders--all these were various forms of "Antichrist."

However, in our day we're seeing Christendom being de-Christianized from within, a corruption brought on by internal sin and compromise with paganism. We've had theological liberalism, which has had a form of Christian "appearance" with a corrupt theology. In effect it is glossing over a return to paganism, making it appear to be moral and "biblical."

But liberal theologians have never owned the evangelical church, nor even Catholicism until relatively recently. The real problem, I think, is in the culture itself, where Christianity used to reign supreme. This has been a long slow centuries-old slide towards Humanism, without any essential biblical dogmatism or even religion. Antichrist will be, I think, not an effort to appear "Christian," but rather, an adversary of religion, claiming himself to be his own exclusive source of authority, ie a "god."
 

Brakelite

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Antichrist will be, I think, not an effort to appear "Christian," but rather, an adversary of religion, claiming himself to be his own
You are probably aware that the word Antichrist, means instead of, in place of, the true Christ. It's a counterfeit, as revealed particularly in Revelation 13. Note my post from a while back, Who is the Antichrist? Let's Put a Name on Him.
 

Ronald D Milam

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KJV Daniel 2:43
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The attempts at the union which you claim as a future certainty is doomed to failure. Clovis failed, Charlemagne failed, Louis 14th failed, Hitler failed, the modern EEC has failed. Europe cannot unite, even though the seed of men has made every King and Queen in Europe cousins.
I agree however there will be 10 divisions who will unite to give power to the beast, but these will be global divisions based on arbitrary administrative reasons tied to geography, not any union based on ideology or shared religion or philosophy. I think that fire a short time at the end they will unite superficially out of fear, desperately hoping the beast/Antichrist can save the world.
Yes, Charlemagne, Hitler, Napoleon et al failed because God foretold Royal Marriage (seed of men) nor Wars would succeed. However you are looking at the 10 all wrong, it means COMPLETION, but they are nor one nations as the old empires under one ruler per se, but they are many nations (10 = the complete number thereof 25-27 now) who are partly STRONG (France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Greece, Belgium, maybe England comes back) and partly WEAK ( Bulgaria, Republic of Cyprus, Estonia, Germany, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia). So, God gave us a factoid we miss unless we think it through. Only at the very end does the E.U. vote to give their President full authority, see Rev. 17:12.

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings(Complete E.U.) which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour(42 Months see Rev. 18:8-10) with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.(He does not Conquer Europe, he is VOTED IN).

Read Dan. 7:7-8 he arises out of the Fourth Beasts Head !! Read Dan. 8:9 he conquers towards the South, East and Israel, so in that Four Way Directional map (four generals) he can only conquer from the Northwest corridor.

dan11-map-greek-emp-div (7).jpg
He conquers from the Northwest (Cassander or Greece). He conquers South and East, as seen in Dan. 8:9 but in far more detail in Dan. 11:40-43. So, Dan. 8:9 shows he s born in Greece.

Now Daniel 7:7-8 shows his political base (Fourth Beasts Head) is the old Roman Empires base. Lets look at Rome circa 117 AD and then the modern day E.U. ADJOINED to these 9 Nations they currently have 7 Year Agreements with in the European Neighborhood Policy (Israel, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia). By reding Dan. 11:40-43 we can see a PLAY BY PLAY of the E.U. conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, except for Edom, Ammon and Moab (Petra/Bozrah area).

Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD (12).png


EU_European_Neighbourhood_Policy_states.svg (6).png

Can you see WHY God stated he Arises out of the Fourth Beasts Head? They will look exactly alike on a map once the E.U. conquers Israel and "THE MANY" (The whole Mediterranean Sea Region). And the E.U. currently has Agreements with all of these nations, they ran from 2007-2013 and 2014-2020, that s 7 year cycles. Look up European Neighborhood Policy.

Now think, Greece and Rome's EMPIRES OVERLAPPED I wonder why? The Last Beast is born in Greece which is in the E.U. He has Assyrian Blood. God does nothing by chance. He makes it very hard to understand, so much so a person has to seek very, very hard.

There is no Worldwide rule by the Anti-Christ.

Ever considered the Antichrist as being a counterfeit Christian movement enforcing it's own brand of Christian morality on the world? Not a beast making the world pagan, but an Antichrist making the world "Christian" after is own image and likeness?
The Church will be gone, he will not be a FAKE Christian Org. He demands to be worshiped as God himself. Hes delusional just as Antiochus was.

The falling away in verse 3 speaks of that which all the early church fathers feared, and which they understood as being held at bay by the present rule of pagan Rome.
No it does not, Paul wrote that as the Church DEPARTS and points to vs. 1 as THAT DEPARTING. The Church of England or KJV translators changed the meaning to Falling Away. You can but what the translators put forth or what Paul put forth, that is on you. TBH, anyone who can't see the timing of the Rapture, I will not place much trust in their points of view on anything to do with Eschatology. There was no such thing as "Pagan Rome" lol. The Church of England was evil or "pagan also" then. Anytime you get men leading trying to be substitutes for God you get evil. You siding with one evil over the other is just you not paying attention to all the facts my friend. Better yet, people tend to agree with what they "WANT TO HEAR" sadly.

That Antichrist that arose, was the papacy.
I saw this coming, this is naivete sir. Both the RCC is the Beast/False Prophet and the Islamic Anti-Christ are both HEADFAKES by Satan. The Anti-Christ pattern has been given unto us. He will be a POLITICAL GENTILE RULER who conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region, all of the other six Beast Powers fits this description. Antiochus is the ARCHETYPE Anti-Christ, Jason (real name Yeshua) is the ARCHETYPE False Prophet, who was under Antiochus and betrayed his Jewish brothers.

I discounted this RCC/Pope stuff 30 plus years ago. It is rubbish.

That's not entirely correct. Since the doctrine of the secret pre-trib rapture was first espoused, Christians have discussed and debated it. It hasn't been a merry of folks just not listening. People, myself included, have looked at the topic with all seriousness, and at one time believed as you do now. More careful study of scripture and history has changed some minds.
You have been deceived by the Deceiver. All the talk means nothing, anyone who can not see the Pre Trib Rapture is not called by God unto Prophecy. PERIOD. Its that simple.
 
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covenantee

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You are probably aware that the word Antichrist, means instead of, in place of, the true Christ. It's a counterfeit, as revealed particularly in Revelation 13. Note my post from a while back, Who is the Antichrist? Let's Put a Name on Him.
As exemplified by the apostate papacy.
  1. All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17
  2. “The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II”
  3. “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.
Thank God for the Reformation.
 
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covenantee

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No it does not, Paul wrote that as the Church DEPARTS and points to vs. 1 as THAT DEPARTING.
Not one rapture to be seen.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Greek

646 [e]
apostasia
ἀποστασία
apostasy
N-NFS

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία

ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36:(29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
falling away, apostacy
Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake.

see GREEK apostasion
 
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covenantee

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There was no such thing as "Pagan Rome" lol. The Church of England was evil or "pagan also" then.
So the Church of England was present in Jesus' day?

Got some Scripture for that? :laughing:

Not even the dispens believe that.
 
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