Prophecy and History

[Randy Kluth]

What's left of Bible Prophecy after one has treated Daniel and Revelation, as well as the Olivet Discourse? Is this all there is? So much of the Bible has Prophecy that was historically fulfilled. The Promises involved Israel becoming a Chosen Nation, and Messiah coming, followed by the birth and advance of the Church. But what of Future Prophecy? Are we left with just a lot of sensationalizing about the Apocalypse? Are we left with just Fear Mongering as our Prophetic Meessage to the world?

Many years agao I became interested in Bible Prophecy, just as many do today. I became fascinated with the focus on Future Prophecy, including much that we see in Dispensationalism--a focus on Israel's restoration, and the signs of the Last Generation. But then I converted to Postribulationism, due to a Bible Memorization program I began to engage in. 2 Thessalonians seemed to be explicitly teaching against what I had been trained, in Pretribulationism, to believe!

Eventually I began to study World History to see if there was any obvious relationship between it and the little bit of Bible Prophecy that I felt still was Future Prophecy. Amazingly, just a few passages in Daniel seemed to have anticipated it all. Daniel's focus was not on an escape from Antichrist, but rather, on resignation that Antichrist does come as an essential characteristic of world history.

But Daniel seemed to see it all in just a couple chapters, chapter 2 and chapter 7. It's like a "mustard seed" of truth created the entire Tree of History for me! Daniel's picture of a 4th Kingdom, which I saw as Rome, formed into 2 halves, the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, which evolved into the Europe we have today. This is portrayed as “2 legs” in Dan 2.

At the same time the Gospel was spreading throughout the world, as promised, the world formed the very pattern that Daniel predicted. There was the Slavs joining the Greek Orthodox communion in the East, and the Germans joining the Latin Catholic communion in the West. Both followed the pattern Daniel prescribed of a 2-legged 4th Kingdom on earth. Perhaps these are the “2 horns” of the “2nd Beast,” a kind of “false pope” in Rev 13?

If you will survey history on this evolution you may see, as I did, this gradual evolution towards what Daniel saw would eventually become a 10-nation Antichristian Empire, consisting of Eastern and Western European nations. It is pure speculation on my part right now, but it appears the historical trend towards dissolving empires into states is now operating in the old Soviet territory. And this is, I think, necessary, in order to prepare for the Antichrist Empire to come. 1st there must be 10 states, East and West, and then they must be sufficiently weakened for Antichrist to assume dictatorial control over them. Just a thought....

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The things you describe are what YOU have read into scripture. Need to weigh it all according to the full content of scripture. Your views would then all vanish with no support.

What there is in prophecy that many do not even recognize is truly amazing. The big role that Egypt has yet to play. How Messiah makes war on the earth when He returns and just how violent it will be. The massive physical changes to the earth - earthquakes aren't just going to happen, they will crumble all of mankind's structures.

 

[marks]

What's left of Bible Prophecy after one has treated Daniel and Revelation, as well as the Olivet Discourse? Is this all there is? So much of the Bible has Prophecy that was historically fulfilled. The Promises involved Israel becoming a Chosen Nation, and Messiah coming, followed by the birth and advance of the Church. But what of Future Prophecy? Are we left with just a lot of sensationalizing about the Apocalypse? Are we left with just Fear Mongering as our Prophetic Meessage to the world?

Many years agao I became interested in Bible Prophecy, just as many do today. I became fascinated with the focus on Future Prophecy, including much that we see in Dispensationalism--a focus on Israel's restoration, and the signs of the Last Generation. But then I converted to Postribulationism, due to a Bible Memorization program I began to engage in. 2 Thessalonians seemed to be explicitly teaching against what I had been trained, in Pretribulationism, to believe!

Eventually I began to study World History to see if there was any obvious relationship between it and the little bit of Bible Prophecy that I felt still was Future Prophecy. Amazingly, just a few passages in Daniel seemed to have anticipated it all. Daniel's focus was not on an escape from Antichrist, but rather, on resignation that Antichrist does come as an essential characteristic of world history.

But Daniel seemed to see it all in just a couple chapters, chapter 2 and chapter 7. It's like a "mustard seed" of truth created the entire Tree of History for me! Daniel's picture of a 4th Kingdom, which I saw as Rome, formed into 2 halves, the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, which evolved into the Europe we have today. This is portrayed as “2 legs” in Dan 2.

At the same time the Gospel was spreading throughout the world, as promised, the world formed the very pattern that Daniel predicted. There was the Slavs joining the Greek Orthodox communion in the East, and the Germans joining the Latin Catholic communion in the West. Both followed the pattern Daniel prescribed of a 2-legged 4th Kingdom on earth. Perhaps these are the “2 horns” of the “2nd Beast,” a kind of “false pope” in Rev 13?

If you will survey history on this evolution you may see, as I did, this gradual evolution towards what Daniel saw would eventually become a 10-nation Antichristian Empire, consisting of Eastern and Western European nations. It is pure speculation on my part right now, but it appears the historical trend towards dissolving empires into states is now operating in the old Soviet territory. And this is, I think, necessary, in order to prepare for the Antichrist Empire to come. 1st there must be 10 states, East and West, and then they must be sufficiently weakened for Antichrist to assume dictatorial control over them. Just a thought....

This is something I'm watching for, a division of the world into 10 regions, or kingdoms, I'm thinking it's going to be economic zones of some kind.

But then I also happen to think that Gog/Magog invasion of Israel will occur just before the rapture/70th week, including a world wide earthquake, that wil throw the world into chaos, from which the beast will arise.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is something I'm watching for, a division of the world into 10 regions, or kingdoms, I'm thinking it's going to be economic zones of some kind.

But then I also happen to think that Gog/Magog invasion of Israel will occur just before the rapture/70th week, including a world wide earthquake, that wil throw the world into chaos, from which the beast will arise.

Much love!

Yes, I'm afraid that at times it seems there are more questions than answers! Anyway, the prophecy of Gog is another question mark in my book I have yet to figure out. It may be that someone like Russia will lead the European confederation of Antichrist? But I don't know.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The things you describe are what YOU have read into scripture. Need to weigh it all according to the full content of scripture. Your views would then all vanish with no support.

What there is in prophecy that many do not even recognize is truly amazing. The big role that Egypt has yet to play. How Messiah makes war on the earth when He returns and just how violent it will be. The massive physical changes to the earth - earthquakes aren't just going to happen, they will crumble all of mankind's structures.

I'm completely disinterested in your kind of dismissive rhetoric. It's intended to be rude. Sorry, that doesn't make for good discussion. I'm not "reading anything into Scripture!" I'm engaging in the *interpretation of Scripture.*

 

[marks]

Yes, I'm afraid that at times it seems there are more questions than answers! Anyway, the prophecy of Gog is another question mark in my book I have yet to figure out. It may be that someone like Russia will lead the European confederation of Antichrist? But I don't know.

I can share with you my ideas if you wish.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I can share with you my ideas if you wish.

Much love!

Of course. That's why I'm here.... Thanks for spending the time!

 

[marks]

Of course. That's why I'm here.... Thanks for spending the time!

In a nutshell, I see the fire from heaven that destroys Gog/Magog from Ezekiel 39 to be the same fire that comes when the first trumpet is sounded. And that the worldwide earthquake in Ez. 38 is the same earthquake in the 6th seal.

Ezekiel 38:18-20 KJV
18) And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19) For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20) So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Revelation 6:12-14 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Ezekiel 38:22 KJV
22) And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Revelation 8:7 KJV
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Ezekiel 39:8 KJV
Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

The Day of the LORD?

This battle is followed by a 7 year stretch,

Ezekiel 39:9 KJV
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Then comes the prophecy of a different battle,

Ezekiel 39:17-29 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

What as limited to those certain nations in the previous battle, this is all the armies of the earth.

Israle will believe,

22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

And will be regathered,

25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

 

[jeffweeder]

What's left of Bible Prophecy after one has treated Daniel and Revelation, as well as the Olivet Discourse? Is this all there is? So much of the Bible has Prophecy that was historically fulfilled. The Promises involved Israel becoming a Chosen Nation, and Messiah coming, followed by the birth and advance of the Church. But what of Future Prophecy? Are we left with just a lot of sensationalizing about the Apocalypse?

Appears to be so.
What do you make of these verses Randy?

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he [stopped me and] said to me, “You must not do that; I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers and sisters who have and hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God [alone]. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy [His life and teaching are the heart of prophecy].”

Mk 13
22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will provide signs and wonders in order to deceive, if [such a thing were] possible, even the elect [those God has chosen for Himself]. 23 But be on your guard; I have told you everything in advance.

 

[MatthewG]

What's left of Bible Prophecy after one has treated Daniel and Revelation, as well as the Olivet Discourse? Is this all there is?

Hello Randy Kluth,

Coming from the position of the Lord Jesus Christ and his full victory.

While there are people out there who reject, doubt, or have yet to meet Jesus.

There is still something to do.

Teach! Teach the bible to other people, and allow them to make choices freely and decide what they will do as information from the bible is presented.

That is what I have learned, people are still going into the Kingdom of God, because of its full establishment.

What people do not know is that, or perhaps have yet to learn, or perhaps yet to grasp, or perhaps have forgotten due to lack of reading the bible is that.

Learning, Growing, Maturing, in knowledge of God and the Lord, is profitable for their spiritual well being. While there are some things that do not pertain to us now today, there may or may not be something that can be attributed spiritually possibly a lesson to grasp and apply in and through ones submission to God in prayer, and to help with, like... the diminshing fleshly heart attributes - though thoughts can come up in the mind, it's normally the act of doing something that is a sin. If you lust of your neighbor for example : that one can be done in the mind but to cast down is better than acting on the sin itself if one realizes what they are doing.

How can one know what they are doing if they never learned it? Or never heard it? Or never seen it?


Therefore there is great need for the growth and maturity of People whom come to Christ as that will be the reward of a person whom went through and in life looking and seeking faithfully God out, and putting "money" per say in the "spiritual bank", at the cost of "self-denial", allowing "God's good work to come through", as one is lead "by the spirit."

That is what I have come to accept as a believer who believes that Jesus has had the victory today.

(I still don't know everything but have an idea of how to go about teaching; relying on some of the knowledge I have working with the text, but mainly subjection to God, and allowing the Spirit to flow through and to try and grasp what it is I am reading and what it could mean, or may not mean)

Another example is : When teaching letters - is important to remind audiences what they are reading, and who it was address to for example.

Just things like this I have picked over the past now 7 years as a bible believing, Christian, and I believe any willingly person who desires to do the will of God will prosper in following the Lord Yeshua, loving God first, and loving your neighbor as yourself - AS DIFFICULT AS THAT TRULY IS.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I'm completely disinterested in your kind of dismissive rhetoric. It's intended to be rude. Sorry, that doesn't make for good discussion. I'm not "reading anything into Scripture!" I'm engaging in the *interpretation of Scripture.*

Only people that are into their own manufactured interpretations respond the way you do. It's very plain you project onto others that which you yourself are feeling.

It's so easy to disprove much of what your opinion is. It goes against clear statements. There's not even any interpretation required. It's totally made up.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In a nutshell, I see the fire from heaven that destroys Gog/Magog from Ezekiel 39 to be the same fire that comes when the first trumpet is sounded. And that the worldwide earthquake in Ez. 38 is the same earthquake in the 6th seal.

Ezekiel 38:18-20 KJV
18) And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19) For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20) So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Revelation 6:12-14 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Ezekiel 38:22 KJV
22) And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Revelation 8:7 KJV
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Ezekiel 39:8 KJV
Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

The Day of the LORD?

This battle is followed by a 7 year stretch,

Ezekiel 39:9 KJV
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Then comes the prophecy of a different battle,

Ezekiel 39:17-29 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

What as limited to those certain nations in the previous battle, this is all the armies of the earth.

Israle will believe,

22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

And will be regathered,

25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

I've actually never considered your scenario. I always read Eze 38-39 as a single battle, as a battle that is being reiterated. But I don't know. There are elements introduced in the 2nd scenario that are new and different.

I can understand the connection between the earthquake in Ezekiel and the earthquake in the 6th Seal. I tend to roll many of these prophecies together into a single battle--the Battle of Armageddon.

But truth be told, I don't know. It's something I'm praying about, because I have an endless thirst to learn about these things. I have no agenda other than to understand what God wants me to understand. And I'm open to all ideas in this regard.

Thanks again!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Only people that are into their own manufactured interpretations respond the way you do. It's very plain you project onto others that which you yourself are feeling.

It's so easy to disprove much of what your opinion is. It goes against clear statements. There's not even any interpretation required. It's totally made up.

As I said, I'm not interested...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hello Randy Kluth,

Coming from the position of the Lord Jesus Christ and his full victory.

While there are people out there who reject, doubt, or have yet to meet Jesus.

There is still something to do.

Teach! Teach the bible to other people, and allow them to make choices freely and decide what they will do as information from the bible is presented.

That is what I have learned, people are still going into the Kingdom of God, because of its full establishment.

What people do not know is that, or perhaps have yet to learn, or perhaps yet to grasp, or perhaps have forgotten due to lack of reading the bible is that.

Learning, Growing, Maturing, in knowledge of God and the Lord, is profitable for their spiritual well being. While there are some things that do not pertain to us now today, there may or may not be something that can be attributed spiritually possibly a lesson to grasp and apply in and through ones submission to God in prayer, and to help with, like... the diminshing fleshly heart attributes - though thoughts can come up in the mind, it's normally the act of doing something that is a sin. If you lust of your neighbor for example : that one can be done in the mind but to cast down is better than acting on the sin itself if one realizes what they are doing.

How can one know what they are doing if they never learned it? Or never heard it? Or never seen it?


Therefore there is great need for the growth and maturity of People whom come to Christ as that will be the reward of a person whom went through and in life looking and seeking faithfully God out, and putting "money" per say in the "spiritual bank", at the cost of "self-denial", allowing "God's good work to come through", as one is lead "by the spirit."

That is what I have come to accept as a believer who believes that Jesus has had the victory today.

(I still don't know everything but have an idea of how to go about teaching; relying on some of the knowledge I have working with the text, but mainly subjection to God, and allowing the Spirit to flow through and to try and grasp what it is I am reading and what it could mean, or may not mean)

Another example is : When teaching letters - is important to remind audiences what they are reading, and who it was address to for example.

Just things like this I have picked over the past now 7 years as a bible believing, Christian, and I believe any willingly person who desires to do the will of God will prosper in following the Lord Yeshua, loving God first, and loving your neighbor as yourself - AS DIFFICULT AS THAT TRULY IS.

Really good word, brother! For all of my wrangling with prophecy interpretations, I really view it as secondary to using it as an opportunity to share helpful things with other Christians and perhaps sow seeds in those who have yet to know Christ. You're wise and humble--two very good qualities to have!

We can use things we're interested in to befriend or associate with others, and in the process, share a word with them that could be a word from God. If it is God's word to them, they will certainly benefit from it! And that's all that matters to me.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Appears to be so.
What do you make of these verses Randy?

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he [stopped me and] said to me, “You must not do that; I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers and sisters who have and hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God [alone]. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy [His life and teaching are the heart of prophecy].”

Mk 13
22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will provide signs and wonders in order to deceive, if [such a thing were] possible, even the elect [those God has chosen for Himself]. 23 But be on your guard; I have told you everything in advance.

I really do get your point, Jeff! In the NT era, the major thing is bringing a testimony to Christ, whose life was already lived and who already laid down his life so that we can benefit from him spiritually. His righteousness is what we preach, which is much more important than speculating about what trumpet means what.

A major part of our testimony is to divert people away from the many false Christs that are out there, who would distract us from our walk. And there are temptations and failures, which is something we must take care with ourselves, as well as help others who feel condemned.
Thanks!

 

[MatthewG]

@Randy Kluth

All glory to the one whom has given us breathe.

May you be refreshing to others in Christ!

You can see that in some of the writings and a writing as a encouragement you can go read in 15 minutes or less is Philemon. Keep laboring and allowing God to work in and through by the spirit which poured in your heart and the Kingdom of God which should be there too.

Thank you for your kind words all glory to Yahava, and the Lord Yeshua!

 

[marks]

I've actually never considered your scenario. I always read Eze 38-39 as a single battle, as a battle that is being reiterated. But I don't know. There are elements introduced in the 2nd scenario that are new and different.

I can understand the connection between the earthquake in Ezekiel and the earthquake in the 6th Seal. I tend to roll many of these prophecies together into a single battle--the Battle of Armageddon.

But truth be told, I don't know. It's something I'm praying about, because I have an endless thirst to learn about these things. I have no agenda other than to understand what God wants me to understand. And I'm open to all ideas in this regard.

Thanks again!

In this concept, the Muslim armies are all wiped out at the beginning of the 7 years. Also, I'm figuring economies will crash, governments will be thrown into chaos. So many people will be missing and dead, no one will realize the rapture has happened, and after all, look at all the 'Christians' who are here?

What I'm thinking is likeliest is what's called "earthquake rapture". That every time in the Bible is resurrected to eternal life there is an earthquake, Jesus, the 2 Witnesses, those in the tombs when Jesus died, if that's the right idea, this is a worldwide resurrection associated with a worldwide earthquake, as the dead in Christ rise. And we who remain are changed.

I see the seals being opened in the same time it takes to read the chapter, and by the 6th seal earthquake we are leaving, to be seen in heaven in Chapter 7, the innumerable multitude.

I can flesh this out more, we can dig into details as you wish. I don't want to innundate you.

Much love!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

What's left of Bible Prophecy after one has treated Daniel and Revelation, as well as the Olivet Discourse? Is this all there is? So much of the Bible has Prophecy that was historically fulfilled. The Promises involved Israel becoming a Chosen Nation, and Messiah coming, followed by the birth and advance of the Church. But what of Future Prophecy? Are we left with just a lot of sensationalizing about the Apocalypse? Are we left with just Fear Mongering as our Prophetic Meessage to the world?

Many years agao I became interested in Bible Prophecy, just as many do today. I became fascinated with the focus on Future Prophecy, including much that we see in Dispensationalism--a focus on Israel's restoration, and the signs of the Last Generation. But then I converted to Postribulationism, due to a Bible Memorization program I began to engage in. 2 Thessalonians seemed to be explicitly teaching against what I had been trained, in Pretribulationism, to believe!

And you fell for the ole misinformation ploy some man put forth. 2 Thess. 2 is about the Departure of the Church. So, you allow one or two passages, that you do not comprehend, to take you down a cul-de-sac. Never-mind that the Church returns as the Bride in Ch. 19 to the Marriage Supper (Armageddon) or that Jesus stated we will escape the Wrath to come, or that the Churches mission is not Israel's calling. And never-mind that the 7 Feasts show Jesus fulfilling all 7 in sequential order, the 1.) Passover 2.) Unleavened Bread 3.) First-fruits of he grave 4.) The Feast of Weeks/Summer Harvest/Church Age. 5.) Feast of Trumps (Last Trump which ends the Gentile Church Age. 6.) Feast of Atonement where Israel ATONES just before the DOTL (Zech. 13:8-9 and Zech. 14:1 shows this) 7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to tabernacle means to Dwell with God and Jesus is God thus Israel dwells with Jesus for his 1000 year reign) That is not all just coincidence. You allowed a mistranslated (on purpose by the Church of England) version of 2 Thess. 2 to take you down a wrong path. It is very clear, the Church DEPARTS as vs. 1 shows, we are Gathered unto Jesus, nowhere in the whole passage is a Departure of the faith even hinted at.

Then in Rev. 2 and 3 we see the Church Age (7 = Divine Completion) called the "Things that are" and then everything after the Rev. 4:1 Rapture is called the HEREAFTER (the 70th week). Then we see the 24 Elders (Church) described in vs. 4 as having the very things promised in Rev. 2 and 3 to those who overcame, in Rev. 2:10, we see they were promised crowns of Gold, in Rev. 4:4 they have on CROWNS, in Rev. 3:10 they were promised White Robes, and in Rev. 4:4 they have on White Robes (Psstt, meaning they have already Married the Lamb at that point) and in Rev. 3:20-21 they are promised they will have a seat at God's throne, in Rev. 4:4 we see they are sitting at God's throne. All this happens before any Seals have ever been opened. So, in essence, everything points to a Pre Trib Rapture, but your misunderstanding of 2 Thess. 2 just overpowers your awareness I guess. We can not allow one or two verses to take us down a wrong path, God is not going to say job well done when we did not do the hard grunt work.

Eventually I began to study World History to see if there was any obvious relationship between it and the little bit of Bible Prophecy that I felt still was Future Prophecy. Amazingly, just a few passages in Daniel seemed to have anticipated it all. Daniel's focus was not on an escape from Antichrist, but rather, on resignation that Antichrist does come as an essential characteristic of world history.

Daniel will stand in his lot at the very end, after the Church returns, Israel the Nation, and the Church have different callings, one is married to God the Father, the other to God the Son, the Redeemer.

If you will survey history on this evolution you may see, as I did, this gradual evolution towards what Daniel saw would eventually become a 10-nation Antichristian Empire, consisting of Eastern and Western European nations. It is pure speculation on my part right now, but it appears the historical trend towards dissolving empires into states is now operating in the old Soviet territory. And this is, I think, necessary, in order to prepare for the Antichrist Empire to come. 1st there must be 10 states, East and West, and then they must be sufficiently weakened for Antichrist to assume dictatorial control over them. Just a thought....

There will be no 10 Nation Kingdom, the 10 = COMPLETION, the 10 = All Europe Completely Reunited. We know that 1/3 of the world is going to burn, have you not taken that into account? Lets see, the New World has exactly 1/3 of the worlds Landmass and the Pacific Ocean has 1/3 of the surface water on this earth. Jesus is going to rule for 1000 years from the Old World (Jerusalem) so he will burn up the New World, its that simple. That is why trying to put the USA into Prophecy never works. That is why people who think the Anti-Christ will rule the whole world just do not get it, Jesus understood hee needed to only have his ministry in a limited location. All of the Beasts have only Beasted over certain areas, in the Mediterranean Sea Region, that is why each Beast arose out of the [Mediterranean] Sea !! The E.U. will conquer the Mediterranean Sea Region, we see this in Daniel 11:40-43.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In this concept, the Muslim armies are all wiped out at the beginning of the 7 years. Also, I'm figuring economies will crash, governments will be thrown into chaos. So many people will be missing and dead, no one will realize the rapture has happened, and after all, look at all the 'Christians' who are here?

Okay, you lost me there. I'm not a Pre-Trib Rapture guy. In my book there will be no "Secret Rapture." When the Church goes up it will be no secret, as I see it. So sorry--we can't be sharing scenarios that are based on...

1) Daniel's 70th Week being a future 7 years period of "Great Tribulation" under the Antichrist, and
2) The Rapture of the Church takes place before the rise of Antichrist.

I can't do this because I'm convinced that the 70 Weeks was fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Christ, and...
The general resurrection of the Church takes place *after* the revelation of Antichrist, when Christ returns at the end of the age (2 Thes 2).

But nice try, though.

What I'm thinking is likeliest is what's called "earthquake rapture". That every time in the Bible is resurrected to eternal life there is an earthquake, Jesus, the 2 Witnesses, those in the tombs when Jesus died, if that's the right idea, this is a worldwide resurrection associated with a worldwide earthquake, as the dead in Christ rise. And we who remain are changed.

I see the seals being opened in the same time it takes to read the chapter, and by the 6th seal earthquake we are leaving, to be seen in heaven in Chapter 7, the innumerable multitude.

I can flesh this out more, we can dig into details as you wish. I don't want to innundate you.

Much love!

I tend to view the "earthquakes" in the book of Revelation as paraphernalia, providing backdrops for the visions to show themselves to be "apocalyptic." Literal trumpets won't sound--they symbolize announcements of great effect. But I do agree that earthquakes literally have taken place at important times in history, to reflect coming judgment. The "great earthquake" I think could refer to the time around Jesus' Return. But as I said, I don't know.

I remain unclear about Gog and Magog, but I'm definitely not Pretrib and future-70th Week of Daniel. But that's an issue that's likely to remain for some time??

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

As I said, I'm not interested...

That much is plainly obvious. It's the saddest part and everyone should have pity on people like you.

[Act 17:11 LSB] 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily [to see] whether these things were so.