prophecy questions about God's Timelines - invitation...

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Adventageous

Active Member
Oct 28, 2022
367
95
28
Noneya
archive.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I apologize for derailing my OWN thread; so 'preterism' is not reformed?
Modern 'preterism' (as well as 'futurism', 'amillennialism', 'mysticism/allegorism', and 'hyper literalism') is/are Jesuit counter-Reformation theology.

QUESTION: SINCE THE “HISTORICIST” UNDERSTANDING (GOD DECLARES THE END FROM THE BEGINNING) IS THE TRUTH, WHERE DID THE MODERN STANDARD “PRETERIST” & “FUTURIST” & “AMILLENNIALIST” & “ALLEGORIST” INTERPRETATIONS OF PROPHECY COME FROM?

The modern standard formulations of the “preterist”, “futurist”, “amillennialist”, and “allegorist” interpretations of Prophecy came from the Jesuits (though there are older non-standardized versions through history by various persons): - https://web.archive.org/web/20170703142610/http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

[A.] Preterism - Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who also wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that it all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar) [1.] Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. [2.] Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church. [3.] Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by Antichrist, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54-68 A.D.), and judgment. [4]. Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church. Alcazar found no application of prophecy to the middle ages or to the papacy. It differed in complete opposition to the Jesuit Francisco Ribera’s and Robert Bellarmine’s Futurism theology.

[B.] Futurism - Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would: [1.] Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God. [2.] Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. [3.] Abolish the Christian religion. [4.] Deny Jesus Christ. [5.] Be received by the Jews. [6.] Pretend to be God. [7.] Kill the two witnesses of God. [8.] Conquer the world.

[C.] Futurism - Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (S.J. – Jesuit), one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis haereticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of antichrist into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).

[D.] Futurism - Michael Walpole - A Treatise of Antichrist. Conteyning the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not Antichrist. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole.

[E.] Futurism - Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben-Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the Antichrist was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826.

[F.] Futurism - Edward Irving (1792-1834), a Scottish Presbyterian and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, translated Lacunza's work from Spanish into English in a book titled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty with a Preliminary Discourse, published in London in 1827 by L.B. Seeley & Sons, which included Irving's own lengthy preface.

[G.] Futurism – Margaret McDonald, member of Edward Irving’s congregation has visions in early 1830’s, with a ‘secret rapture’ of believers before Antichrist appears.

[H.] Futurism - Samuel Roffey Maitland (1792-1866), scholar and librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury, further promoted and established Futurism in England after 1826, as a result of reading the work of Manuel De Lacunza.

[I.] Futurism - John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a Church of Ireland clergyman, later with the Plymouth Brethren, also promoted Futurism and a secret rapture. Darby attended the series of meetings on Bible Prophecy that began in 1830 at Powerscourt, Ireland, and at these conferences Darby apparently learned about the secret rapture as revealed by vision to Margaret McDonald, and promoted by Edward Irving, and he soon visited Margaret MacDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Darby later visited America several times between 1859 and 1874, where his Futurist theology was readily accepted.

[J.] Futurism - Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), formerly with the Plymouth Brethren, he became Presbyterian, and published The Hope Of Christ's Second Coming in 1864, in which he gave the following testimony on the origin of the secret rapture, "I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin." -- Footnote 1 for Chapter 9, pg 35.

[K.] Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921), greatly influenced by the writings of J. N. Darby, incorporated Futurism in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible. First published by Oxford University Press in 1909, one million copies were printed by 1930. The Scofield Bible was instrumental in firmly establishing the Jesuit inspired Futurist interpretation in the Protestant Bible schools of the United States in the 20th century. [1.] Futurist - Dallas Theological Seminary (John Walvoord, Chuck Swindoll, Charles C. Ryrie, Hal Lindsey, J. Vernon McGee, Kenneth N. Taylor, Thomas Ice, Renald Showers), [2.] Moody Bible Institute of Chicago (Jerry B. Jenkins), [3.] Western Theological Seminary (Reformed Church in America; Tim LaHaye; Jerry Fallwell), and others like Trinity Broadcasting, Jack Van Impe Ministries, Zola Levitt Ministries, John Ankerberg, Perry Stone, Chuck Missler, Dave Hunt, Eric Jon Phelps, etc.
 

Adventageous

Active Member
Oct 28, 2022
367
95
28
Noneya
archive.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But hey, some folks on the 'Kingdom Now' theories actually do... believe that Christ's literal Kingdom is... here and now on earth, through us, and that it is our job to convert all nations today in order to bring His literal Kingdom now, without waiting for His return. Some of those folks support Satan's plans for a "one world government", i.e., New World Order.
Yeah, that would be the Antichristian system of Catholicism's (universal) vicarius christi:

For instance, 'pope' Francis I (Jorge Bergoglio) stated in Laudato Si:

New World Order, the 'gospel' of "change" and "revolution":

"... The urgent challenge to protect our common home includes a concern to bring the whole human family together to seek a sustainable and integral development, for we know that things can change. ..."​
"... We require a new and universal solidarity. ..."​
"... We need to strengthen the conviction that we are one single human family. ..."​
"... An authentic humanity, calling for a new synthesis ..."​
"... All of this shows the urgent need for us to move forward in a bold cultural revolution. ..."​
"... We need to develop a new synthesis ..."​
"... Others will then no longer be seen as strangers, but as part of a “we” which all of us are working to create. ..."​
"... Interdependence obliges us to think of one world with a common plan. ..."​
"... A global consensus is essential for confronting the deeper problems, which cannot be resolved by unilateral actions on the part of individual countries. ..." - Laudato si' (24 May 2015) | Francis
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
4,558
1,867
113
72
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Modern 'preterism' (as well as 'futurism', 'amillennialism', 'mysticism/allegorism', and 'hyper literalism') is/are Jesuit counter-Reformation theology.

QUESTION: SINCE THE “HISTORICIST” UNDERSTANDING (GOD DECLARES THE END FROM THE BEGINNING) IS THE TRUTH, WHERE DID THE MODERN STANDARD “PRETERIST” & “FUTURIST” & “AMILLENNIALIST” & “ALLEGORIST” INTERPRETATIONS OF PROPHECY COME FROM?

The modern standard formulations of the “preterist”, “futurist”, “amillennialist”, and “allegorist” interpretations of Prophecy came from the Jesuits (though there are older non-standardized versions through history by various persons): - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

[A.] Preterism - Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613), who also wrote a commentary called Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, which ran to some 900 pages. In it he proposed that it all of Revelation applied to the era of pagan Rome and the first six centuries of Christianity. According to Alcazar (or Alcasar) [1.] Revelation chapters 1-11 describes the rejection of the Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. [2.] Revelation chapters 12 - 19 were the overthrow of Roman paganism (the great harlot) and the conversion of the empire to the church. [3.] Revelation 20 describe the final persecutions by Antichrist, who is identified as Caesar Nero (54-68 A.D.), and judgment. [4]. Revelation 21 -22 describe the triumph of the New Jerusalem, the Roman Catholic Church. Alcazar found no application of prophecy to the middle ages or to the papacy. It differed in complete opposition to the Jesuit Francisco Ribera’s and Robert Bellarmine’s Futurism theology.

[B.] Futurism - Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would: [1.] Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God. [2.] Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. [3.] Abolish the Christian religion. [4.] Deny Jesus Christ. [5.] Be received by the Jews. [6.] Pretend to be God. [7.] Kill the two witnesses of God. [8.] Conquer the world.

[C.] Futurism - Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (S.J. – Jesuit), one of the best known Jesuit apologists, published a work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Disputationum Roberti Bellarmini De controversiis Christian fidei adversus hujus temporis haereticos, (Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time), in which he also denied the day = year principle in prophecy and pushed the reign of antichrist into a future period of 3 1/2 literal years. (See Froom, Prophetic Faith, Vol. 2, pgs. 495 - 502).

[D.] Futurism - Michael Walpole - A Treatise of Antichrist. Conteyning the defence of Cardinall Bellarmines arguments, which inuincibly demonstrate, that the pope is not Antichrist. Against George Downam by Michael Christopherson priest ..., Volume 1 of 2 by the English Jesuit, Michael Walpole (1570-1624?), 1613 edition. Christopherson is a pseudonym for Walpole.

[E.] Futurism - Manuel De Lacunza (1731–1801), a Jesuit from Chile, wrote a manuscript in Spanish titled La Venida del Mesias en Gloria y Magestad ("The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty"), under the pen name of Juan Josafa [Rabbi] Ben-Ezra about 1791. Lacunza wrote under an assumed Jewish name to obscure the fact that he was a Catholic, in order to give his book better acceptance in Protestantism, his intended audience. Also an advocate of Futurism, Lacunza was deliberately attempting to take the pressure off the papacy by proposing that the Antichrist was still off in the future. His manuscript was published in London, Spain, Mexico and Paris between 1811 and 1826.

[F.] Futurism - Edward Irving (1792-1834), a Scottish Presbyterian and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, translated Lacunza's work from Spanish into English in a book titled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty with a Preliminary Discourse, published in London in 1827 by L.B. Seeley & Sons, which included Irving's own lengthy preface.

[G.] Futurism – Margaret McDonald, member of Edward Irving’s congregation has visions in early 1830’s, with a ‘secret rapture’ of believers before Antichrist appears.

[H.] Futurism - Samuel Roffey Maitland (1792-1866), scholar and librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury, further promoted and established Futurism in England after 1826, as a result of reading the work of Manuel De Lacunza.

[I.] Futurism - John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), a Church of Ireland clergyman, later with the Plymouth Brethren, also promoted Futurism and a secret rapture. Darby attended the series of meetings on Bible Prophecy that began in 1830 at Powerscourt, Ireland, and at these conferences Darby apparently learned about the secret rapture as revealed by vision to Margaret McDonald, and promoted by Edward Irving, and he soon visited Margaret MacDonald at her home in Port Glasgow, Scotland. Darby later visited America several times between 1859 and 1874, where his Futurist theology was readily accepted.

[J.] Futurism - Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-1875), formerly with the Plymouth Brethren, he became Presbyterian, and published The Hope Of Christ's Second Coming in 1864, in which he gave the following testimony on the origin of the secret rapture, "I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an "utterance" in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin." -- Footnote 1 for Chapter 9, pg 35.

[K.] Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921), greatly influenced by the writings of J. N. Darby, incorporated Futurism in the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible. First published by Oxford University Press in 1909, one million copies were printed by 1930. The Scofield Bible was instrumental in firmly establishing the Jesuit inspired Futurist interpretation in the Protestant Bible schools of the United States in the 20th century. [1.] Futurist - Dallas Theological Seminary (John Walvoord, Chuck Swindoll, Charles C. Ryrie, Hal Lindsey, J. Vernon McGee, Kenneth N. Taylor, Thomas Ice, Renald Showers), [2.] Moody Bible Institute of Chicago (Jerry B. Jenkins), [3.] Western Theological Seminary (Reformed Church in America; Tim LaHaye; Jerry Fallwell), and others like Trinity Broadcasting, Jack Van Impe Ministries, Zola Levitt Ministries, John Ankerberg, Perry Stone, Chuck Missler, Dave Hunt, Eric Jon Phelps, etc.
Amillennialism, in recognizing the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God in Christ and His Gospel since His first coming (Mark 1:14-15), is the antithesis of futurism. It was the dominant view of the Reformers.
 
Last edited:

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,848
3,270
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus/Michael stood up
Michael the Arch Angel "isnt" Jesus Christ as you falsely claim, a false teaching from the cults of Jehovahs Witnesses and 7th Day Adventist
 
Last edited:

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,848
3,270
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Adventageous

Active Member
Oct 28, 2022
367
95
28
Noneya
archive.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Michael the Arch Angel "isnt" Jesus Christ as you falsely claim, a false teaching from the cults of Jehovahs Witnesses and 7th Day Adventist
I am not mistaken. I rest in the scripture and it's words:


For those who claim to be children of the Reformers, seem to forget this doctrine of the Reformers.
 

Adventageous

Active Member
Oct 28, 2022
367
95
28
Noneya
archive.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It was the dominant view of the Reformers.
Well Luther, Melanchthon, Calvin, etc carried a lot of catholic doctrines, because they were catholic originally and were trying to reform catholcisim at the time, and the amillennialism stemmed from Augustine's distortion, and yet even so, they did begin to distance themselves from such a harsh stance eventually, even if slowly, and not so greatly. Greater light was in coming after them, as they moved out of great darkness. It's sort of like Wycliffe and purgatory. He didn't give it up entirely, but attacked it none the less, though not perfectly.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,848
3,270
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am not mistaken. I rest in the scripture and it's words:


For those who claim to be children of the Reformers, seem to forget this doctrine of the Reformers.
Michael clearly talks of Jesus Christ as a different person than himself, case closed!

Michael is a Arch Angel, just as Gabriel is

I have no desire to partake in conversation regarding false teachings of the cult of Jehovahs Witnesses and 7th Day Adventist

Jude 1:9KJV
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
 

Ronald D Milam

Active Member
Jan 12, 2022
975
128
43
59
Clanton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This seems to be fanciful thinking! What Scripture proof supports what you allege here? I don't find the E.U. mentioned anywhere in Scripture???
And the Pharisees couldn't find anywhere in the Old Testament that foretold of Jesus returning to die first, but it was there. The Fourth Beasts Head is what they come out of, thats the E.U. whether you understand it or not is not that important tbh. He also has to come out of Greece (Northwest Corridor) And Greece is in what? The E.U. pretty simply stuff but way to complex for you it seems.

Maaaaaaaaa where is it written at................maaaaaaaaa. Yea, God wrtirtes in codes, Jesus gave the Diosciples instruction in "Parables" so the world would not understand, he told you that, and you still don't get it, lol.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
3,362
1,444
113
72
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And the Pharisees couldn't find anywhere in the Old Testament that foretold of Jesus returning to die first, but it was there. The Fourth Beasts Head is what they come out of, thats the E.U. whether you understand it or not is not that important tbh. He also has to come out of Greece (Northwest Corridor) And Greece is in what? The E.U. pretty simply stuff but way to complex for you it seems.

Maaaaaaaaa where is it written at................maaaaaaaaa. Yea, God wrtirtes in codes, Jesus gave the Diosciples instruction in "Parables" so the world would not understand, he told you that, and you still don't get it, lol.

If this is true you should prove what you allege through Scripture Ronald. It seems you and 7t7 think we should simply believe your OPINIONS! Unless you can prove what you allege, why would anyone believe you? Show us how you decipher God's written codes? And explain the parables of Christ since you seem to believe understanding of them is given only to you Ronald!
 

Ronald D Milam

Active Member
Jan 12, 2022
975
128
43
59
Clanton
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If this is true you should prove what you allege through Scripture Ronald. It seems you and 7t7 think we should simply believe your OPINIONS! Unless you can prove what you allege, why would anyone believe you? Show us how you decipher God's written codes? And explain the parables of Christ since you seem to believe understanding of them is given only to you Ronald!
Well I did, can you not read? I back everything up with detailed scriptures. Truth has no clue about prophecy. I was called unto Prophecy 37 years ago. I think if you read my posts carefully you will see I back everything up with scriptures. I laid out why he has to fulfill THREE PROPHESIES in one man. He has to have Assyrian blood (Isaiah 10), he has to be born in Greece. Dan. 8:9 MANDATES THIS, it can be nothing else because of the direction he conquers in (TOWARDS). And he has to also be born amongst the 10 (Complete Europe) that comes back together, as Clay and Iron. What does the Iron tell us? THINK......it tells us that Rome or Italy still has to be a PART of this end time kingdom. And what is Italy/Rome in? The E.U. of course. Gods word is simple but if we listen to goofwad men like Herbert W. Armstrong over the years and his thoughts creep into the lexicon of truths, but in reality they are not truths, all of this RCC stuff and 10 nations that have been around for 2000 years came from him, its in error. As is the Islamic Anti-Christ that comes from Joel Richardson. Iron (Italy/Rome) has to be a part of the end time kingdom. Rome is in the E.U.

Why do I understand Israel is going to join the E.U.? Hard work, plus a little luck or divine providence. One day I ran across a page on Wikipedia about the European Neighborhood Policy, go look it up. The E.U. currently have 7 year agreements in place with Israel and every nation on the Mediterranean Coast, (The MANY) as in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria. They pump out 15 billion Euros to those nations over 7 years. These agreements ran from 2007-2013 then from 2014-2020. The E.U.'s stated goals is to shape their politics and to have candidates for further expansion. Israel plays its soccer/football in the Euro Leagues. Their progressive leaders so want to join the E.U. Question, does Hawaii feel safer since they joined the United States? Of course they do, the E.U. after the Gog/Russia war is going to offer Israel a safety rail so to speak, grab onto this, you will be safe. Israel will think if they join the E.U. that they are much safer, but because they give up their nukes, they can then be conquered by the very ones they trust. The Anti-Christ never says I am your Messiah, that's just WRONG THINK, John 5:43 was about the Pharisees of 33-70 AD.

Understanding or NOT UNDERSTANDING the parables was not even the point, though we should all understand them. The POINT was God doesn't just come out and tell us specific things, He does so in CODE like the Woman of Rev. 12 = Israel as does the 144,000 = ALL Israel. He does it for a specific reason, we can hear and understand His GOD SPEAK, the world has no clue what it means.
 
Last edited:

Adventageous

Active Member
Oct 28, 2022
367
95
28
Noneya
archive.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Michael clearly talks of Jesus Christ as a different person than himself, case closed!

Michael is a Arch Angel, just as Gabriel is

I have no desire to partake in conversation regarding false teachings of the cult of Jehovahs Witnesses and 7th Day Adventist

Jude 1:9KJV
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Compare Jude to Zechariah 3:

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

See? The "angel (messenger) of the LORD (Father)" is also "the LORD" (the Person/Being of the Son), who says to satan, "the LORD (Person/being of the Father) rebuke thee (satan), and the other is the Person/Being of the Holy Ghost.

So, when "Michael (Who is like unto God (the Father)? ie the Son) the archangel (highest messenger)" says, "the LORD (the Person/Being of the Father) rebuke thee (satan)" it is as it is in Zechariah, where the Father had sent the Son as His messenger.
 

Adventageous

Active Member
Oct 28, 2022
367
95
28
Noneya
archive.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have no desire to partake in conversation regarding false teachings of the cult of Jehovahs Witnesses and 7th Day Adventist
That's because you cannot actually stay long enough to do anything with my scriptural rebuttal, which is irrefutable. Go on, join Johann in that 'box'.
 

Adventageous

Active Member
Oct 28, 2022
367
95
28
Noneya
archive.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I was called unto Prophecy 37 years ago.
Pro_25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

2Pe_2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Jud_1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
 

Adventageous

Active Member
Oct 28, 2022
367
95
28
Noneya
archive.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
he has to be born in Greece. Dan. 8:9 MANDATES THIS,
You misunderstand the text.

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The "them" refers to four winds (directions, see also Daniel 11:4), and the kingdom that came after was ROME (out of the North), as per Daniel 2, 7. Look at the Hebrew if you need to.

Consider that the "four winds", simply relate to the four cardinal directions, North, South, East and West [Daniel 8:8, 11:4; Jeremiah 49:36; Zechariah 2:6, 6:5; Ezra 37:9; Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27 KJB]. One can also think of a whirlwind with four arms, stretching out, like a hurricane.

Bible - Daniel 8 - Antiochus False - Four Arm Hurricane.jpg

Bible - Daniel - Four Winds - Four Horns - Primary-Circulation.jpg

Bible - Daniel 8 - Antiochus False -Tornado Vector Graphics four directions.jpg

However, let's say you don't want to consider the winds or the Hebrew and simply want it to come from the horns. It is still Rome, which according to Daniel 2, 7, the Dreadful Terrible Beast had "Iron" teeth and "brass" claws, as it sometimes called the Greco-Roman Empire (see Rev. 13:2, Sea Beast with body of Leopard, which was Papal Rome, with Greek Philosophy), as Rome conquered:

The Head of the He-Goat was more than likely Pella [Capital city] in Macedon, which is where Rome assaulted:

"... In 168 BC, it [Pella] was sacked by the Romans, and its treasury transported to Rome, and Livy reported how the city looked in 167 BC to Lucius Aemilius Paulus Macedonicus, the Roman who defeated Perseus at the battle of Pydna: ..." - Pella - Wikipedia
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,694
2,521
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Historicism is just as faulty as the rest of men's created doctrines.

It was the one of the main doctrines held by the Reformers. Because of the persecutions by the Roman Church around the 16th century Europe, the Reformers believed the pope was the Antichrist prophesied to come at the end of this world. It did not happen.

Later historicists favored the belief that over the history of the Church there would come many antichrists through history, as they refused the idea of a single final Antichrist at the end which The Bible does prophesy. They believe that most of the Book of Revelation is already past history, though only a very small portion is actual history, but still applicable to today's Christian Church (like Rev.2 & Rev.3).

Several of their religious heads over their history vainly attempted to set dates for the end of the world (Charles Wesley, Adam Clarke, William Miller whose followers would later form the Seventh Day Adventists, which also created the Watch Tower movement, i.e., Jehovah's Witness).


Brethren, the way to be one of Christ's disciples is like He said in John 8 to those Jews that believed on Him, "... if ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31-32)

That does not mean to be swayed back and forth with every doctrine that men come up with. Doing that is much like a reed shaking in the wind (meaning unstable in Christ's doctrine). If you get your understanding 'directly' in God's written Word, asking God's help in Christ's name, you will not be swayed by every new doctrine of men. You will become stable in knowing what God's Word actually says as you 'discipline' yourself in it, and your thinking and understanding will become more stable and useful to Lord Jesus. You will begin to recognize Christ's enemies and those deceived by Christ's enemies, and you will have Faith so strong that nothing can deter you from a foundation in Christ Jesus.

So let men on men's doctrines 'play' men's doctrines, continually going around in circles. You stay in God's Word like Jesus said, and the Truth will make you free (spiritually so you cannot be deceived).