propitiation by His blood, through faith

[H. Richard]

The problem I see with your presentation is that there is no difference between the saved and the lost apart from human energized belief (of the flesh) and obedience (also of the flesh). And this is salvation by works. In essence, one must act like a Christian to become one.

In the bible, the flesh cannot have biblical faith, it is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. One must first have the Holy Spirit to believe in any genuine sense. And because of this new birth, we love God and hate sinSo we do not practice sinning. If we do sin, God forgives us and we repent in thanksgiving.

****

I am sorry that you have mis-understood what I write. It was you that brought into the discussion the word obedience.

Yes there is a difference in those that believe and those that do not believe. I have stated that difference many times. Those that are in denial that Jesus paid for their sins of the flesh are lost but those that do believe it are saved. That is what I have been saying and you wish to muddy the water by saying I am stating otherwise.

I get a laugh out of what you wrote about belief and obedience. You said, "human energized belief of the flesh. and obedience (also of the flesh) and that one must act like a Christian to become one." If that is what you got out of what I have said then you are misguided by your attempts to mislead everyone on what I am saying.

So, in your opinion anyone who believes Jesus paid for their sin on the cross are only acting like they believe it. So you have become the judge of what others believe. Show me where it says the flesh can not have a faith that saves unless they are saved.

Rom 10:14-16
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
NKJV

Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

Notice that it was AFTER they believed that they are sealed. You want it to be saved in order to believe.

Heb 4:2-3
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest
NKJV

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

In my own studies and teachings, Jesus indeed DID shed His blood for the remission of the sins of the WHOLE world. And, His sacrifice is a FREE gift for all who believe on Him and what He did. So, in that sense, the "whole world" will not "receive" the gift freely given. So by default, their sins are left in arrears.

so we see that faith will be turned into belief bc belief is certainly easier, which is why we have passages about the difference that HR will also not acknowledge, bc they out him. Faith and belief share a synonym for us, but to HR they are =, and action is a sin to him i guess

See, when you talk to HR you are required to reflect on his vv only, see, just try mentioning any other Scripture and see what happens

 

[bbyrd009]

It was you that brought into the discussion the word obedience.

Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to
the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake.

better tear that one out too i guess
see, this is why we have Scripture HR, bc ppl like you

Romans 16:19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice ...

Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you
Philemon 1:21 Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing ...

Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing
that you will do even more than I ask.
2 Corinthians 9:13 Because of the service by which you have proved ...

Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God
for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ
Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to ...

... yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether
you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience
2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his ...

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands

 

[Nancy]

so we see that faith will be turned into belief bc belief is certainly easier, which is why we have passages about the difference that HR will also not acknowledge, bc they out him. Faith and belief share a synonym for us, but to HR they are =, and action is a sin to him i guess

See, when you talk to HR you are required to reflect on his vv only, see, just try mentioning any other Scripture and see what happens

"just try mentioning any other Scripture and see what happens"
I will take a pass on that one, not up to any silly debates

 

[VictoryinJesus]

just a symptom,

symptom of what?

 

[Dave L]

****

I am sorry that you have mis-understood what I write. It was you that brought into the discussion the word obedience.

Yes there is a difference in those that believe and those that do not believe. I have stated that difference many times. Those that are in denial that Jesus paid for their sins of the flesh are lost but those that do believe it are saved. That is what I have been saying and you wish to muddy the water by saying I am stating otherwise.

I get a laugh out of what you wrote about belief and obedience. You said, "human energized belief of the flesh. and obedience (also of the flesh) and that one must act like a Christian to become one." If that is what you got out of what I have said then you are misguided by your attempts to mislead everyone on what I am saying.

So, in your opinion anyone who believes Jesus paid for their sin on the cross are only acting like they believe it. So you have become the judge of what others believe. Show me where it says the flesh can not have a faith that saves unless they are saved.

Rom 10:14-16
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
NKJV

Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

Notice that it was AFTER they believed that they are sealed. You want it to be saved in order to believe.

Heb 4:2-3
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest
NKJV

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
NKJV

In scripture, God does not save people because they choose to believe and remain obedient. People believe and remain obedient because God saved them. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before biblical faith can exist.

 

[Dave L]

In my own studies and teachings, Jesus indeed DID shed His blood for the remission of the sins of the WHOLE world. And, His sacrifice is a FREE gift for all who believe on Him and what He did. So, in that sense, the "whole world" will not "receive" the gift freely given. So by default, their sins are left in arrears.

But it didn't save anyone? It only made it possible for them to save themselves through obedience (works)?

 

[Episkopos]

In my own studies and teachings, Jesus indeed DID shed His blood for the remission of the sins of the WHOLE world. And, His sacrifice is a FREE gift for all who believe on Him and what He did. So, in that sense, the "whole world" will not "receive" the gift freely given. So by default, their sins are left in arrears.

Then there's the whole repent and forsake thing concerning sins.

 

[Episkopos]

In scripture, God does not save people because they choose to believe and remain obedient. People believe and remain obedient because God saved them. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit one must have before biblical faith can exist.

I think Peter perceived something that you are still missing...


Acts 10 :34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Sounds like the opposite of what you're saying.

So who should we listen to?

 

[Nancy]

Then there's the whole repent and forsake thing concerning sins.

Can that one please be another thread? lol

 

[Dave L]

I think Peter perceived something that you are still missing...


Acts 10 :34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Sounds like the opposite of what you're saying.

So who should we listen to?

The only people working righteousness are already saved through the New Birth.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23)

 

[Nancy]

But it didn't save anyone? It only made it possible for them to save themselves through obedience (works)?

Is not one of the Holy Spirits roles to convict sinners of their sin? If one is honest with and agrees with God that they ARE sinners and CANNOT save themselves-which is ludicrous- and that they are in need of a Savior? When God opens our eyes, we cannot help but see His truth...and the more of His light that shines in us, the more our sins come to the forefront of our own minds and that is when we see our need of His saving grace. Faith is simply believing God. Works are so misunderstood it seems. Are thee not good works and bad works? The "bad" works (flesh) are done out of obligation thinking they will save their soul, and they never will. Good works (Spirit) are the ones done in His name and tome that means, they come from a grateful heart that has been changed. The "work" that we once did, in the flesh become something we DESIRE to do as we see people through His eyes. These are the kind of works that come naturally from our new nature. not because we have to follow some law. His laws flow naturally out of us as the old man is no longer natural to us. ALL IMHO!!! ♥

 

[Dave L]

Is not one of the Holy Spirits roles to convict sinners of their sin? If one is honest with and agrees with God that they ARE sinners and CANNOT save themselves-which is ludicrous- and that they are in need of a Savior? When God opens our eyes, we cannot help but see His truth...and the more of His light that shines in us, the more our sins come to the forefront of our own minds and that is when we see our need of His saving grace. Faith is simply believing God. Works are so misunderstood it seems. Are thee not good works and bad works? The "bad" works (flesh) are done out of obligation thinking they will save their soul, and they never will. Good works (Spirit) are the ones done in His name and tome that means, they come from a grateful heart that has been changed. The "work" that we once did, in the flesh become something we DESIRE to do as we see people through His eyes. These are the kind of works that come naturally from our new nature. not because we have to follow some law. His laws flow naturally out of us as the old man is no longer natural to us. ALL IMHO!!! ♥

You believe because God saved you. He did not save you because you chose to believe.

 

[Episkopos]

The only people working righteousness are already saved through the New Birth.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23)

You are not reading the verse i wrote for you. You are putting God in a box and only seeing things one way. Whereas God works many different ways. So you god is too small to be the real God.

God ALSO chooses people who fear Him and work righteousness...as Peter says.

But you don't respect Peter's authority or any other authority...than your own opinion.

 

[Dave L]

You are not reading the verse i wrote for you. You are putting God in a box and only seeing things one way. Whereas God works many different ways. So you god is too small to be the real God.

God ALSO chooses people who fear Him and work righteousness...as Peter says.

But you don't respect Peter's authority or any other authority...than your own opinion.

Apart from the new birth, people hate the true Christ. They only fabricate idols and give them his name.

 

[Helen]

So, Jesus died for all of our sins on the cross except the sin of unbelief, and sins of disobedience too? What sins did he die for?

Well I believe that "It is finished" did mean It Was Finished.

The Holy Blood shed satisfied the Father...
Jesus was lifted up on the cross and He drew ALL WRATH unto Himself.

The sacrifice of the perfect Lamb was enough.

But instead of resting joyously in the finished work and being overwhelmed by the reality of the power of LOVE...by pride of man, we chose to believe that we have something to do with our salvation!!

Salvation is secure...what is not secure is our place in the Kingdom.
" I go to prepare a place for you..."

Our works of love and fruit will dictate where we will be in Glory.
THAT is the business at hand...
That is what Father will inspect and test by Fire...be it Gold , silver and precious stones , wood, hay or stubble.

 

[Episkopos]

Apart from the new birth, people hate the true Christ. They only fabricate idols and give them his name.

That's not true either. The Doobie brothers did a song called "Jesus is just all right". That's proof right there!

 

[bbyrd009]

funny, pretty much everyone loves Christ, huh; Christians, not so much

symptom of what?

um, the aversion to obedience? The denial of the judgement of works? i don't know tbh, i guess many diff reasons are given for refusing to pick up one's cross and follow? Many would rather worship Jesus, i guess, than become elohim themselves, so that might be going on too

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You are not reading the verse i wrote for you. You are putting God in a box and only seeing things one way. Whereas God works many different ways. So you god is too small to be the real God.

God ALSO chooses people who fear Him and work righteousness...as Peter says.

But you don't respect Peter's authority or any other authority...than your own opinion.

There is only one way and that one way is through Christ. Christ(Spirit) works righteousness and it goes before Him.

 

[Episkopos]

There is only one way and that one way is through Christ. Christ(Spirit) works righteousness and it goes before Him.

Actually what you have picked up on is....there is only one way...and that is through our religious hoop. We call the hoop Christ...but that is a sentimental name given to a religious viewpoint we have elevated to be salvific.

It is certainly not the Jesus of the bible.