Prove the Trinity wrong challenge.

[bbyrd009]

Pssst............the Church is over here, the ones that are unified in the truth.

you don't realize what you have just proclaimed Dave, even if you are forgiven for saying it

 

[bbyrd009]

didnt the Canaanites and Babylonians, the ones the Most High said dont be like, have trinities.

The Pagan Origins Of The Trinity Doctrine

 

[bbyrd009]

sounds the same to me as well as most orthodox Jews.

yes, we are taught that Christianity invented these right, but they are ancient themes that were just borrowed for effect, same as the Greek gods in Scripture, unabashedly invoked bc the concept is what matters, not the labels i guess. "Virgin Mary" is not necessary for a "Christ," she is just the most inclusive way to present God to Artemis/virgin cult worshippers who are seeking, and "Christ" was a common term used for kings

 

[Naomi25]

We have historic doctrine held in common by Evangelicals, Protestants, Reformed, Baptists, Methodists, Orthodox, and more. But these are all wrong because you never studied what they teach and don't care to?

I think it a shame that people are not delving into the Church fathers more. Should we believe what they write just because they are 'old'? No...and I don't think anyone, least of all you, are suggesting we should. But to ignore and pass over centuries of wisdom that God has passed onto Christian men (and women!) is short-changing ourselves.
People say that the 'Spirit leads them' today, and that's all they need. Well and good, but they are ignoring that the 'Spirit led' these men in similar ways! What makes our 'revelations' more important than theirs?

 

[Enoch111]

sounds the same to me as well as most orthodox Jews.

Orthodox Jews REJECT the deity of Christ. No big surprise. Plus they elevate the Talmud to the level of Scripture, when it simply reflects the beliefs of the enemies of Christ.

But we find the Trinity within the Torah, when ELOHIM said "Let US make man is OUR image,after OUR likeness" (Gen 1:26). The word Elohim for God itself is uni-plural, since in Hebrew all words ending in -im express plurality (e.g. Seraph, Seraphim).

We clearly find the Father and the Son in this verse:Thus saith the LORD [YHWH] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; [YHWH Sabaoth or Tzevavot] I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isa 44:6).
כֹּֽה־אָמַ֨ר יְהוָ֧ה מֶֽלֶךְ־יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְגֹאֲלֹ֖ו יְהוָ֣ה צְבָאֹ֑ות אֲנִ֤י רִאשֹׁון֙ וַאֲנִ֣י אַחֲרֹ֔ון וּמִבַּלְעָדַ֖י אֵ֥ין אֱלֹהִֽים

But then we find that Jesus is also the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega:

REVELATION 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

How can it be possible that both the Father and the Son are "the first and the last" as well as "the Lord God Almighty"? So in order to avoid this dilemma, we have the naysayers DISHONESTLY interpreting the Scripture (just like the rabbis).

 

[Dave L]

I think it a shame that people are not delving into the Church fathers more. Should we believe what they write just because they are 'old'? No...and I don't think anyone, least of all you, are suggesting we should. But to ignore and pass over centuries of wisdom that God has passed onto Christian men (and women!) is short-changing ourselves.
People say that the 'Spirit leads them' today, and that's all they need. Well and good, but they are ignoring that the 'Spirit led' these men in similar ways! What makes our 'revelations' more important than theirs?

Thanks for the reply. Please understand the trinity is under attack on this forum. So I posed it so those attacking it could try to prove it wrong. So far they along with untold millions throughout history have failed.

 

[Dave L]

you don't realize what you have just proclaimed Dave, even if you are forgiven for saying it

The church holds certain doctrines in common. if you reject any of these doctrines you are causing divisions which is sin.

 

[Dave L]

you changed the subject again Dave, #1, and #2 i don't believe you wadr
i am relatively certain you are circumcised, and i would be willing to bet that if you have any sons they are too

Why does this interest you so much? None of the guys I know occupy their minds this way.

 

[Dave L]

didnt the Canaanites and Babylonians, the ones the Most High said dont be like, have trinities.

The had pagan deities (demons), but Christianity is the only religion worshiping one God in trinity.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, my friend you or I may know "where" the Church is and others also may know. Surprisingly there are many who really do not have a clue although they will quickly tell give you an answer regarding its whereabouts. The Truth of course is Jesus whoever he is.

Just that the church is unified it their stated beliefs. And those who come against them cause division.

 

[jaybird]

Orthodox Jews REJECT the deity of Christ. No big surprise. Plus they elevate the Talmud to the level of Scripture, when it simply reflects the beliefs of the enemies of Christ.

But we find the Trinity within the Torah, when ELOHIM said "Let US make man is OUR image,after OUR likeness" (Gen 1:26). The word Elohim for God itself is uni-plural, since in Hebrew all words ending in -im express plurality (e.g. Seraph, Seraphim).

We clearly find the Father and the Son in this verse:Thus saith the LORD [YHWH] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; [YHWH Sabaoth or Tzevavot] I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isa 44:6).
כֹּֽה־אָמַ֨ר יְהוָ֧ה מֶֽלֶךְ־יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְגֹאֲלֹ֖ו יְהוָ֣ה צְבָאֹ֑ות אֲנִ֤י רִאשֹׁון֙ וַאֲנִ֣י אַחֲרֹ֔ון וּמִבַּלְעָדַ֖י אֵ֥ין אֱלֹהִֽים

But then we find that Jesus is also the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega:

REVELATION 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

How can it be possible that both the Father and the Son are "the first and the last" as well as "the Lord God Almighty"? So in order to avoid this dilemma, we have the naysayers DISHONESTLY interpreting the Scripture (just like the rabbis).

yes orthodox Jews reject this teaching about Jesus. why did i throw that out there, because when Jesus was here teaching the Jews followed Him everywhere, they didnt seem to have a problem with anything He taught, fast forward hundreds of years when we know this doctrine was taught, now Jews will have nothing to do with the faith. so whats that tell you about this doctrine.

 

[Dave L]

yes orthodox Jews reject this teaching about Jesus. why did i throw that out there, because when Jesus was here teaching the Jews followed Him everywhere, they didnt seem to have a problem with anything He taught, fast forward hundreds of years when we know this doctrine was taught, now Jews will have nothing to do with the faith. so whats that tell you about this doctrine.

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” (1 John 2:22–23)

“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:18–19)

“For many deceivers have gone out into the world, people who do not confess Jesus as Christ coming in the flesh. This person is the deceiver and the antichrist!” (2 John 7)

 

[amadeus]

Just that the church is unified it their stated beliefs. And those who come against them cause division.

We both understand what we are saying, but it is not necessarily precisely the same thing, is it? Let us pray!

 

[Taken]

“If I knew what you meant by the term, I might tell you; but from the days of Athanasius until now all discussion about the Trinity has been an attempt to define the indefinable and the incomprehensible. Thousands have been put to death for not professing belief in a formula which even its professors could not comprehend, nor state in terms that anybody else could comprehend.”

I think this is a profound summary.

“The Scriptures reveal "One God and Father of all," our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the brightness of the Father's glory, and "the eternal Spirit" through whom Christ offered Himself and was raised from the dead; but we do not profess any knowledge of them beyond what the Scriptures give us. In teaching and preaching the Gospel we always confine ourselves strictly to Scripture terms and language; those who manufacture terms must be looked to for definitions of them.” He concluded “It is safest not to presume to define what the Bible has not defined, nor to attempt to explain infinite"

This also is profound IMO.
And also a conundrum.

Scripture IS written Knowledge.
Teachers teach the written word.
The listeners can thus Verify what they are taught with Scripture.

However ~
The Understanding of the Knowledge....
Understanding is Two-Fold.
1) from a mans MIND.
2) from the man receiving FROM GOD, Gods Understanding (which is rarely, if ever, the same as a mans MIND)

It is mans curious nature to delve into the Understanding of Scripture, and rarely is the Understanding IN the written Scriptures.

It is routinely, the Understanding that is "debated" among men....often to adnausim and ridiculousness.

The Correct Understanding IS ALWAYS Gods Understanding.

Gods Understanding IS ALWAYS a gift from God individually TO a man/person.

Two men WHO agree on the MINDUFL Understanding can AGREE and easily discuss their Understanding IN AGREEMENT.

Two men WHO have received Gods Understanding can AGREE and easily discuss their Understanding According to God, IN AGREEMENT.

(And young men, coming into Learning, or other outsiders Hearing the "DEBATE" {between the one who MINDFULLY and the other who SPIRITUALLY (via God) Understands}......such outsiders stand on the sideline listening....thinking and saying....
WHAT KIND OF CRAZY RELIGION is the Christianity, ya'll both say you AGREE to be part of....but yet have Completely DIFFERENT
VIEWS!)

To quote pastor Terry Hill.

In our discussions regarding the Godhead, the one thing we need to remember is that there cannot be found in Scripture any explanation of how the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have their existence together.

This is my Point.
Explanation IS Understanding.

Scripture reveals the Knowledge.
The "explanation" is summarized in ONE word.

MIRACULOUS

This is why we should be very guarded not to make any attempt to explain it -

Back to the conundrum ~

A man who MINDFULLY understands...
CAN
Quote and Identify IN 'OTHER" writings ...
The Basis FOR their "understanding".
(Catechisms, Commentaries, Philosophers writings, creeds, other historical writings).

A man who SPIRITUALLY understands...
CAN NOT
Quote or Identify "any OTHER" "WRITINGS" for the Basis FOR their "understanding".
(It was Given them Spiritually BY GOD).

And thus...Men who MINDFULLY agree, can discuss their agreement and Be content, with a "man-made writing" as their Basis of "proof".

And Men who SPIRITUALLY agree, can discuss their agreement and Be content, with them both having had received From God the Same Understanding.

even though each of the three divine personalities

Another Conundrum......

Men TRYING to even TALK ABOUT GOD....
Using terms....Three, PersonalitieS, PersonS, etc.

Further IMO exacerbates the INTENT to Describe God.

This is why the trinity doctrine - the teaching that says all three divine personalities exist inseparably together in one substance as the ‘one immortal God’ -

Is THAT what the "Trinity" means?

Another Conundrum.....

Tri - the prefix means THREE.
Unity - means NOT being "multiple", but Being ONE.

Thus the basic term "TRINITY", can MEAN different things to different people.

To some as quoted above apparently the TRINITY......DESCRIBES, three divine "personalities" exist together as ONE "substance."

Of course Scripture says no such thing....about "personalities" or "substance".

The MYSTERY of God....is the KEY.

Few Understand the Mystery of God.
Many do not.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

didnt two of these men go down to Sodom where they are identified as angels.

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 04397 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
$alm from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Mal'ak TWOT - 1068a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mal-awk' Noun Masculine
Definition

1. messenger, representative
   1. messenger
   2. angel
   3. the theophanic angel

Theophany
[thee-of-uh-nee]
noun, plural the·oph·a·nies.

1. a manifestation or appearance of God or a god to a person.

The second person the Trinity is the angel of God in the old testament and in Revelations.

Gen 18

20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

 

[brakelite]

I think it a shame that people are not delving into the Church fathers more. Should we believe what they write just because they are 'old'? No...and I don't think anyone, least of all you, are suggesting we should. But to ignore and pass over centuries of wisdom that God has passed onto Christian men (and women!) is short-changing ourselves.
People say that the 'Spirit leads them' today, and that's all they need. Well and good, but they are ignoring that the 'Spirit led' these men in similar ways! What makes our 'revelations' more important than theirs?

Paul said that after his demise, grievous wolves would enter the flock. After the 1st century, the church very quickly sank into apostasy, first starting in Rome and Alexandria. BY the time the creeds were established to define the Godhead and attempt to unify Christendom (a project initiated by Constantine the emperor, not the church) the church was already abandoning truth in favour of pagan practise and belief. The ensuing means by which the trinity was established among believers , by coercion not study of scripture, and the tactics use to silence any opposition, is evidence to my mind that the holy Spirit had very little to do with what many would deem 'revelation' on the matter.
That the opposition, men such as Wulfilas, a courageous missionary to the Goths, was Semi-Arian, and a remarkable work accomplished by him, in stark contrast to the methods employed by Rome, testifies to the nature of the men involved in the controversy.

 

[bbyrd009]

The church holds certain doctrines in common.

ah well i guess that is true, however i have already heard you speak against most of them, for instance no reason a Muslim or a Hindu could not be accepted, etc. I don't think you would like any of them tbh, besides which i think you reveal that you don't know where the Church even is Dave, are any Christian Doctrines held in common by all of what you call "churches?" i don't think so?

Ps, this does not address the post you quoted btw; we still are not having a conversation, bc you are not conversing ok, just to make this clear.

this is a deflection, at least until you make a point congruent with

you don't realize what you have just proclaimed Dave, even if you are forgiven for saying it

which btw i said bc of the mis-statement @ "truth," not "church."

if you reject any of these doctrines you are causing divisions which is sin.

you don't have the foggiest idea what you are talking about Dave, and that and your doctrines are what causes division in the Body bro. I'm praying for your success right now bc you don't understand that process either ok, fwiw, you can't divide One, see

Why does this interest you so much? None of the guys I know occupy their minds this way.

right Dave, i'm consumed by a desire to know the details of your penis
have a nice life, ok

 

[bbyrd009]

Just that the church is unified it their stated beliefs. And those who come against them cause division.

so are you Catholic then or what Dave, bc this does not even apply to Prots very well i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

and ps fwiw i would never tell you any of this irl ok, i would just slap you on the back and sell you something
see i have Asperger's, so we share many traits. And of course i wanted to get my ego into Valhalla too

 

[bbyrd009]

Pssst............the Church is over here, the ones that are unified in the truth.

the ones that are unified in the truth

so you are plainly pointing somewhere Dave, ok
just prolly not where you think