Question about John 3:16

[xBluxTunicx82]

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n William T. Boyd's The Most Exclusive Club, on page 160, this statement is found:

The most quoted verse in the scripture; 3:16 has also been misquoted
nearly every time. The word “world” (kosmos - Strong’s #3625) here
does not mean all of the earth. It was normally used to define the populated
area around the writer’s location. When Joseph came to
Bethlehem in response to the decree from Caesar Augustus (Luke 2:1)
it didn’t mean all the people of the earth had to come to the [sic] his own city
– only the residents of the area of Judea.

The problem with Boyd's argument is, in my view this: to support his view, he refers to the use of the word "world" Greek oikoumene in Luke 2:1. But, that word is not the same word used in John 3:16 "kosmos."


Strong's: oikoumene

1. the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
2. the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
3. the whole inhabited earth, the world
4. the inhabitants of the earth, men

Strong's: kosmos

# the world, the universe
# the circle of the earth, the earth
# the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
# the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

Boyd's argument for Luke 2:1 makes sense, as not all the inhabitants of the world would be expected to travel to be taxed. But that view doesn't hold for John 3:16, because no one is traveling or being taxed. And there is no other restrictions in the context as far as I can ascertain.

We also have the use of the word "whosoever." It seems Boyd's view is "whosoever" is an Israelite and believes, etc. Not just any inhabitants in the world - kosmos.

My question is: Does God indeed love the world or just Israel's descendants?

A related question: Have all those Anglo-Saxon missionaries - and those that supported them - that dedicated their lives to sharing John 3:16 to the non-Israelites, wasted their time and efforts?[/background]

 

[aspen]

The world was considered the Roman Empire.

 

[mark s]

Let Scripture interpret Scripture . . .

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,"

Not limited.

 

[7angels]

in order to understand the greek you need to know and understand that the gospel had no greek words to explain them. they had to come from greek words already in use and so bible scholars took greek words that had a meaning that came the closest to what they were trying to say. so if you really want to understand the greek and their meanings i encourage you to read about Rick Renner who is one of the best greek scholars of today.

 

[mark s]

Hi 7angels,

Was there something in particular he has to say about John 3:16?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[7angels]

there is but i do not remember what it is. it has been a while since i have sat under his teachings. it is hard to remember all the good infomation he teaches about. sorry

God bless

 

[brightmorningstar]

good op. John 3:15 is the analogy where having been bitten, looking upon the snake raised up would save them.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi all,

Regarding 'world' (kosmos), I heard a modern native Greek speaker (a Christian) explain that the best translation for the phrase 'God so loved the world', is 'God so loved people'. That seems to tie in with Strong's '# the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family'.

xBluxTunicx82 asked (op)

My question is: Does God indeed love the world or just Israel's descendants?

A related question: Have all those Anglo-Saxon missionaries - and those that supported them - that dedicated their lives to sharing John 3:16 to the non-Israelites, wasted their time and efforts?

Answers: (This reply is a sketch, mentioning where you can read the details. I hope that's okay. )

God does indeed love all of mankind, and to make sure they/we could not fail to recognise His Son, the Redeemer, our Saviour, He gave His word to Eve (and Adam) that one of their descendants would bruise the serpent's head: and in order to clarify whom that descendant was (when He came), He gave his word to Abram that it would be one of his descendants; and further clarified it with information about where He would be born, which tribe (Judah), which family (David's) ; that His mother would be of royal descent, as well as that His (as we now know, adoptive) father would be heir to the throne (except at a time of occupation by a foreign power (the Romans), that 'kingdom' was not actually under the control of that heir (Joseph).

In Romans 1 - 4, Paul expounds the connection between Abram having been an uncircumcised non-Israelite at the time God called him and non-Israelites being saved:

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Paul expresses more about this in Galatians, where (as in Romans), he shows that the descendants of Abram (Abraham) who received the law, and by obedience to the law continued in favour with God, can now no longer depend on 'keeping the law' to remain in His favour: but through faith in Jesus Christ (their Messiah - also identified by very many prophecies which came from God through their own prophets to both them and non-Israelites) they must receive the Holy Spirit by circumcision of their hearts (Rom 2:29) to be accepted with God. Then, in Galatians 3:14 there we read:

'That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.'

In Ephesians 2, Paul gives a rather detailed explanation of how the Israelites and the non-Israelites are made 'one' in Christ Jesus -

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye [Gentiles] are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


[Notes: In Acts 2, the people who understood the languages which were spoken by the 120 disciples on the day of Pentecost were all Jews - v 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (God had planned they would take the gospel home. The appeal of the gospel to Jews, is uniquely expressed by Paul here: Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.)

Paul's conversion is recorded in Acts 9, with this commission:

'he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel' - thus fulfilling much previous prophecy.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you [Israelites]: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Compare that last verse with Peter speaking to Jews in the Temple in Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you [Israelites] from his iniquities. [Isaiah 59:20]

If there is a 'first', there ought to be a second: in Acts 10, the first Gentiles come to faith in Jesus Christ while Peter is preaching.]

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Regarding 'world' (kosmos), I heard a modern native Greek speaker
(a Christian) explain that the best translation for the phrase 'God so loved
the world', is 'God so loved people'. That seems to tie in with Strong's '#
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family'.

The existing New Testament documents are in koiné Greek-- an ancient form
of Greek which is somewhat different than modern Greek. According to the
passages below, the word kosmos indicates not just people, but the entire
created universe including all of its various forms of life, matter, and energy.

†. Acts 17:22-24 . . Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and
said: Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I
walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found
an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship
as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. The God who made
the kosmos and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does
not live in temples built by hands.

†. Rom 1:19-21 . .That which is known about God is evident within them;
for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the kosmos, His
invisible attributes, and His eternal power and divine nature, have been
clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they
are without excuse.

So does that mean that the kosmos of John 3:14-16 includes the whole of
creation? I'm inclined to believe it does.

†. Rom 8:18-22 . . For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for
the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility,
not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the
creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the
freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole
creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

In other words: Christ died not only to redeem Adam's family; but also to
redeem Adam's kingdom. So just as Christ's crucifixion makes it possible for
humans to obtain a second birth, so it makes possible the creation to obtain
a second birth too.

†. Isa 65:17 . . For, behold; I create new heavens and a new earth: and the
former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

†. Rev 21:1 . . And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
heaven and the first earth were passed away

Cliff
/

 

[xBluxTunicx82]

in order to understand the greek you need to know and understand that the gospel had no greek words to explain them. they had to come from greek words already in use and so bible scholars took greek words that had a meaning that came the closest to what they were trying to say. so if you really want to understand the greek and their meanings i encourage you to read about Rick Renner who is one of the best greek scholars of today.

As is Bill Finck

 

[bytheway]

The word World translates to orderly arrangment. That's what He loved, the order He created, which of course was lost at the fall. He sent His Son to reestablish the order. Certinaly people where involved in the ongoing recovering of what is always God's top priority, Order. God will not operate in disorder. No wonder we don't experience things even close to Biblical Proportions!

 

[dragonfly]

Thanks for all the clarification on 'kosmos'.

To Cliff, I think you're backed up by Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

God will not operate in disorder. No wonder we don't experience things even close to Biblical Proportions!

Hi bytheway, I think it might be truer to say that God brings order out of disorder. It is really easy to judge disorderliness from the outside, but God looks on the heart, and He has His own priorities in every life. We could have plenty of organisation on the outside, without a heart relationship with Him. My experience is that He's prepared to overlook a lot of exterior disorderliness, if He can have a meaningful relationship with a believer on the inside.


Hey xBluxTunicx82,

What did you think of the answers I gave to your two questions in the OP? I'm curious!

 

[grandma dolittle]

The word World translates to orderly arrangment. That's what He loved, the order He created, which of course was lost at the fall. He sent His Son to reestablish the order. Certinaly people where involved in the ongoing recovering of what is always God's top priority, Order. God will not operate in disorder. No wonder we don't experience things even close to Biblical Proportions!

Amen! God will not operate in disorder is so true, whether it be in our lives, the church, the governent, or the whole world. Disorder is Satan's thing. Using disorder, Satan tries to block God's plan for the world.

 

[bytheway]

[quote name='dragonfly' timestamp='1338491993' post='152581']
Thanks for all the clarification on 'kosmos'.

To Cliff, I think you're backed up by Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Hi bytheway, I think it might be truer to say that God brings order out of disorder. It is really easy to judge disorderliness from the outside, but God looks on the heart, and He has His own priorities in every life. We could have plenty of organisation on the outside, without a heart relationship with Him. My experience is that He's prepared to overlook a lot of exterior disorderliness, if He can have a meaningful relationship with a believer on the inside.


Hey xBluxTunicx82,

What did you think of the answers I gave to your two questions in the OP? I'm curious!
[/quote] Order and disorder can't co-exist. God overlooks nothing. To think that God just winks somethings away is perverting His own established will. The problem here is to many think it's all about us, when it's really about Him and what He desires.

 

[dragonfly]

Order and disorder can't co-exist.

But they do. God was fully in existence and sovereign in Genesis 1:1 and 2. And in terms of the lives of individuals, there is not a sinner alive whose life is in 'order' as God would have it, and God is still on His throne.

God overlooks nothing.

You're right. And He knows every detail of disorder in a person's life, and whether or not they have obeyed Him. And if they are walking with Him, and obeying HIm, and an observer thinks they can see 'disorder', that's not because God has overlooked it, but because He hasn't asked the person to deal with it, yet. It may be that the Lord would have the observer pray, or go help the other person.

To think that God just winks somethings away is perverting His own established will.

However, there is grace with God in regard to ignorance, as Paul reports in 1 Timothy 1:13 [Paul] Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief

Hebrews 5:2 [priests] Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained...'

In all this, God is not forgetful of His desire for order in the lives of believers, but He recognises human frailty, and the ravages of sin.

The problem here is to many think it's all about us, when it's really about Him and what He desires.

Truly, it is about Him, but He cares for us in our distresses, and He is not a hard task-master where He sees a heart desirous of righteousness.

 

[ttruscott]

Let Scripture interpret Scripture . . .

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,"

Not limited.

Hmmm, seems limited to appeared, which may or may not include, offered or accepted and like ideas.

Peace, Ted

 

[bytheway]

Hey Dragonfly, The order that I'm talking about is the order that Paul put forward in 1:Cor. 12:28. Just as peace doesn't proceed war so order in the individual is not established on the front side. Godly order is first Apostles. Secondarily Prophets. Thirdly Teachers. I don't know of one ministry where the foundational doma giftings are set. Order is taught and if one is standing under set men reflecting The Apostle, The Prophet and The Teacher order is among the first thing to learn. I know of several "sinners" as you put it that are very much in order. Believers today want to do their own thing. True Godly order is lost to multiple generations with this megachurch mentality. Americanized churchanity coupled with few people unwilling to risk building relationships, hiding from the very ones that can bring them into order gives us what we have today.