Question no Protestant can answer

[amigo de christo]

Then what is? I have asked a thousand times

Its true believers all around the world . Those who preach no other jesus , But the True Jesus Christ and they can be in small groups ,
even in caves and dens . The church are the true lambs . The RCC is dangerous my friend . And i am not being mean
at all . I am worried for you my friend .

 

[BreadOfLife]

They will invent ways to do evil.

As I educated you in my last post - Scripture tells us that the Holy spirit won't allow His Church to TEACH error.

There will ALWAYS be wicked men within the Body of Christ - as there was in the beginning, starting with Judas.
We were WARNED about this in Scripture (Matt. 7:15-20).

Don't you guys ever READ your Bible??

 

[amigo de christo]

The Holy Spirit does not teach us to teach errors . Which begs the next question .
How come so many popes have . I mean Bread of life makes a good point about scripture .
YET , how often i have seen big errors in those popes . So perhaps we ought to ponder on that .
FOR IF the HOLY SPIRIT wont let His Church teach errors , then why do these men do such a thing , IF they are the so called church .
Now men must be tested , cause men can teach errors . And we test them by scripture to see if they agree with Christ
and what the apostles first wrote .

 

[Riverwalker]

Your comment above in RED is complete anti-biblical nonsense.

As God's people, we are ABSOLUTELY led by men who are led by the Holy Spirit. It's been that was since the time of Moses.
WHO do you think the Apostles were?? Who were Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, Luke, Mark, etc?? Who is YOUR pastor?

Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote the following about those those LEAD us in Christ . . .
1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

STUDY your Bible . . .

Let me correct the following statement
As God's people, we are ABSOLUTELY led by men who are led by the Holy Spirit. It's been that was since the time of Moses.
It should read
As God's people, we are ABSOLUTELY led by the Holy Spirit

There are people who are in charge of the administration of the churches out there. The ADMINISTRATION of the CHURCH and when it comes to how they choose top run their church O either get on board or find another church. This is why I am no longer the Catholic I was raised as. But Absolutely NO ONE has been placed between me and God.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


And as far as Moses Goes.. the Holy Spirit lead his people through prophets, and a limited number of people served in this role and had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. That changed on Pentecost as all Christians have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (the misguided basis for a bishop to slap you on the cheek and confirm you)

 

[amigo de christo]

Let me correct the following statement
As God's people, we are ABSOLUTELY led by men who are led by the Holy Spirit. It's been that was since the time of Moses.
It should read
As God's people, we are ABSOLUTELY led by the Holy Spirit

There are people who are in charge of the administration of the churches out there. The ADMINISTRATION of the CHURCH and when it comes to how they choose top run their church O either get on board or find another church. This is why I am no longer the Catholic I was raised as. But Absolutely NO ONE has been placed between me and God.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


And as far as Moses Goes.. the Holy Spirit lead his people through prophets, and a limited number of people served in this role and had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. That changed on Pentecost as all Christians have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (the misguided basis for a bishop to slap you on the cheek and confirm you)

Yes indeed we must test all men . Let no man Lord over the flock . Yes there are elders and such
but they too must be tested . And He gave some to be apostles , prophets , teachers , etc for the edifying of the church .
SO it would grow and mature . But if we take note of the first ones , it seems all the apostels saw themselves as equals
and while they did correct and rebuke they lived the example for the flock . It was simple really .
Nothing like what i see today .

 

[Wrangler]

As I educated you in my last post - Scripture tells us that the Holy spirit won't allow His Church to TEACH error.

No. You revealed your lack of knowledge of Scripture, supposing verses proof your point when they don’t.

The first error of the church is equating itself with Christ in perfection and authority. How oppressive!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus constantly said, search the scriptures, you do err, no

Jesus said study the scriptures, you do err, not knowing the scriptures, in addition to saying it is written a lot - but did not once appeal to oral traditions - but He did speak against tradions of men.

And I guess you missed these scriptures:

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Scripture is for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF of wrong doctrine and for INSTRUCTION in righteousness and for knowledge of how to obtain SALVATION..

Scripture has the final word. Next:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing THE WORD of truth.

We are told it’s our responsibility to study THE WORD and come to the truth.

Then in Acts 17 the Bereans are called noble for not taking the apostle Paul’s oral teaching for the truth until they searched THE SCRIPTURES to see if he was telling it correctly.

Scripture has the final authority, period..

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Peter spoke accurately of you when he wrote:
2 Pet. 3:16
There are some things in them (Paul's Letters) that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

First of all - Jesus didn't condemn Tradition OR the Traditions of His Church - of which HE gave FULL Authority to declare on His behalf (Matt. 16:18, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23). He condemned the made-up traditions that the Scribes and Pharisees imposed on the people that USURPED the Word of God. These are referred to as "Qorban" in context.

As for your claim that Jesus and the NT writers DIDN'T appeal to Tradition but "ONLY" what was written - you need another Bible lesson . . .

Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy "He shall be a Nazarene" is ORAL TRADITION. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the ORAL TRADITION of acknowledging Moses' seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exod. 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

2 Timothy 3:8 - Paul relies on the ORAL TRADITION when speaking of Pharoah’s magicians, Jannes and Jambres. Their names are not recorded in the Old Testament.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on ORAL TRADITION to quote an early Christian hymn - "awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light."

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of the Archangel Michael's dispute with satan over Moses' body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the ORAL TRADITION of Enoch's prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Once again - the Bible does NOT support the false Protestant invention of "Sola Scriptura" . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's just a lame excuse for the Catholic tradition that contradicts scripture. Amy leader can then teach anything to anyone for whatever reason, claim the Spirit infallibly taught him, and Bob's your auntie. As the Jesuits say, black becomes white if the Pope says so. There are no checks and balances. It's what gave encouragement to the crusades... The inquisitions... Oh wait, that wasn't the church that tortured and murdered millions of people, that was the state. Nothing to do with us. In fact the Popes totally objected against the inquisitions and the murders of Protestants and Waldenses and numerous others. They tore their clothes and put ashes upon their heads when hearing if the government's overreaching into spiritual matters right? I mean, look at that incident of the St Bartholomew massacre. When hearing of the huge numbers of Protestant victims, the Pope celebr... Sorry... Mourned and had a medal struck in sympathy on commemora... Sorry again, no... memorial. And he even demanded all the church bells in Rome to ring out in sorrow and mourning.

WRONG.
Jesus didn't give just "ANY leader" complete Authority to declare "WHATEVER" needed to be bound or loosed (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:17-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).

And your idiotic and unsubstantiated charge that "millions were murdered" by the Church is nonsense. I've heard numbers ranging anywhere from 2 million to over 150 million - and not ONE of them is substantiated by history. Just another blanket slur that has grown over time like the "telephone game".

When the Protestant murders of Catholics are cited - we usually appeal to actual history, like the 72,000 murdered and starved to death by Henry VIII and his equally bloodthirsty daughter, Elizabeth I.
So, instead of simply reading more lies from your goddess, E. G. White - do your homework . . .

 

[Riverwalker]

As I educated you in my last post - Scripture tells us that the Holy spirit won't allow His Church to TEACH error.

I Agree.....but his "church" is not the Roman Catholic Church. It is every believer. And the Holy Spirit is the teacher

 

[JunChosen]

Once again - the Bible does NOT support the false Protestant invention of "Sola Scriptura" . . .

Are you saying the Scripture verses you laid out in your post #387 above are all fakes and NOT "SOLA SCRIPTURA?" Are they not written in the Bible???!!!

Well, consider the text Romans 15:4 and tell us whether it is Scripture or not!

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

To God Be The Glory

 

[theefaith]

God always establishes order in men with the people’s obedience to hierarchical authority!

The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!

All require obedience to hierarchical authority!

Even in the angelic order there is hierarchy!

The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!

Joseph administered the kingdom under pharaoh while receiving obedience from His brothers!

Genesis 42:6
And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

Without a central authority there can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people

The nature of the church is authority in hierarchy producing order!
Unity of the truth (thee faith) and the spirit!

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[theefaith]

Its true believers all around the world . Those who preach no other jesus , But the True Jesus Christ and they can be in small groups ,
even in caves and dens . The church are the true lambs . The RCC is dangerous my friend . And i am not being mean
at all . I am worried for you my friend .

how do become a member? What is required for initiation?

 

[theefaith]

What order does it have?
What authority?
What hierarchy?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you saying the Scripture verses you laid out in your post #387 above are all fakes and NOT "SOLA SCRIPTURA?" Are they not written in the Bible???!!!

Well, consider the text Romans 15:4 and tell us whether it is Scripture or not!

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

To God Be The Glory

You are conflating Scriptural Authority with Scripture ALONE (Sola Scriptura).

Scripture is indeed Authoritative - but NOWHERE do we read that it is our "SOLE" Authority.
- I have presented an airtight Scriptural argument against Sola Scriptura by illustrating that Christ's CHURCH is shown to be our final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
- I have shown that Jesus and the NT writers ALL appealed to ORAL Tradition (Matt. 2:23, Matt 23:2, 1 Cor. 10:4, 2 Timothy 3:8, Eph 5:14, Heb. 11:37, Jude 9, Jude 14-15).

All YOU and your fellow anti-Catholics have done is to show that Scripture is Authoritative.
Congratulations - you AGREE with the Catholic Church on that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I Agree.....but his "church" is not the Roman Catholic Church. It is every believer. And the Holy Spirit is the teacher

I agree with you, too. I'm not even sure what the "Roman" Catholic Church is. I belong to the ONE, Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church.
"Roman" simply refers to just ONE of about TWENTY Liturgical Rites that comprise the ONE Catholic Church.

As for WHO teaches us - as I showed you in my last post - the Holy Spirit teaches us through MEN appointed by His Church.
Here are some more verses that prove this point:

2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from US."

2 Thess. 3:6
"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from US."

2 Tim. 2:2
"What you have heard from US before many witnesses entrust to FAITHFUL MEN who will be able to teach others also".

1 Cor. 11:2
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I HAVE DELIVERED THEM TO YOU".

1 Cor. 12:28
"God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS".

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Holy Spirit does not teach us to teach errors . Which begs the next question .
How come so many popes have . I mean Bread of life makes a good point about scripture .
YET , how often i have seen big errors in those popes . So perhaps we ought to ponder on that .
FOR IF the HOLY SPIRIT wont let His Church teach errors , then why do these men do such a thing , IF they are the so called church .
Now men must be tested , cause men can teach errors . And we test them by scripture to see if they agree with Christ
and what the apostles first wrote .

Not a SINGLE Pope has TAUGHT error.
That's not to say that there haven't been some wicked Popes.

There was a wicked Apostle.
Des that mean that Jesus made a "mistake" in choosing him?

 

[theefaith]

Acts 2:42 they held to the doctrine of the apostles not scripture

 

[amigo de christo]

Not a SINGLE Pope has TAUGHT error.
That's not to say that there haven't been some wicked Popes.

There was a wicked Apostle.
Des that mean that Jesus made a "mistake" in choosing him?

Oh they taught falsehoods my friend . Some folks just cant let go of their savoir the RCC . But as for me i shall cling to CHRIST .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let me correct the following statement
As God's people, we are ABSOLUTELY led by men who are led by the Holy Spirit. It's been that was since the time of Moses.
It should read
As God's people, we are ABSOLUTELY led by the Holy Spirit

There are people who are in charge of the administration of the churches out there. The ADMINISTRATION of the CHURCH and when it comes to how they choose top run their church O either get on board or find another church. This is why I am no longer the Catholic I was raised as. But Absolutely NO ONE has been placed between me and God.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


And as far as Moses Goes.. the Holy Spirit lead his people through prophets, and a limited number of people served in this role and had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. That changed on Pentecost as all Christians have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them (the misguided basis for a bishop to slap you on the cheek and confirm you)

Soooooo, you don't attend a church service? You don't have a pastor who TEACHES you?
Are you a "Lone Ranger" Christian?

As for the verses you presented - I have already obliterated that argument by showing you verse after verse after verse where mere MEN were called both "Father" and "Teacher" - with God's approval.

Please explain that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh they taught falsehoods my friend . Some folks just cant let go of their savoir the RCC . But as for me i shall cling to CHRIST .

Then please, list those "falsehoods" . . .