Question on Jesus' Ministry timing

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Jay Ross

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Yes, 2000 years from sometime in the first century when God struck them with partial blindness. They will be unblinded shortly before the second coming when Christ will reign on earth for 1000 years.

Where do you find any scriptural reference to Christ's second coming after which He will reign on the earth for 1,000 years?
 

Dcopymope

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Where do you find any scriptural reference to Christ's second coming after which He will reign on the earth for 1,000 years?

Read Rev. Ch 20, I don't know about all that stuff she speaks of the jews being unblinded shortly before his return. I gather that their eyes are opened well before his second coming when looking at what the two witnesses do in Rev. Ch 11. Getting the jews to wake the hell up is the main reason why God sends them in the first place so.
 

CharismaticLady

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Where do you find any scriptural reference to Christ's second coming after which He will reign on the earth for 1,000 years?

What do you believe will happen?

Revelation 20:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
 
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Jay Ross

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What do you believe will happen?

Revelation 20:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The above Biblical quote from Rev 20 does not support your POV. It is silent as to where Christ and the beheaded saints reign. Rev 19 suggest that Christ remains in heaven with his army until after the Bottomless pit is opened and Christ then goes out to capture the Beast and the False Prophet.

In Dan 7:13-14 we are told that Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him, but this passage is also silent as to where Christ exercised the dominion He was given.

I do not believe that you have provided scriptural proof that Christ will rule the earth on the earth for 1,000 years.

Both Rev 19 and 20 indicates that Christ will rule the earth from Heaven as our High Priest with the beheaded Saint who also act as priests dueing this 1,000 year period.
 

Paul Christensen

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The above Biblical quote from Rev 20 does not support your POV. It is silent as to where Christ and the beheaded saints reign. Rev 19 suggest that Christ remains in heaven with his army until after the Bottomless pit is opened and Christ then goes out to capture the Beast and the False Prophet.

In Dan 7:13-14 we are told that Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him, but this passage is also silent as to where Christ exercised the dominion He was given.

I do not believe that you have provided scriptural proof that Christ will rule the earth on the earth for 1,000 years.

Both Rev 19 and 20 indicates that Christ will rule the earth from Heaven as our High Priest with the beheaded Saint who also act as priests dueing this 1,000 year period.
I think you have missed the part in the reference that there are two periods of a thousand years. I grant that the first 1000 years the martyrs will reign with Christ in heaven for the first 1000 years, and then there will be the first resurrection. Then those who are raised with reign with Christ for another 1000 years as priests of God and of Christ. This links with the Scripture that says that we are kings and priests unto God (Revelation 1:6).
 

Jay Ross

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I think you have missed the part in the reference that there are two periods of a thousand years. I grant that the first 1000 years the martyrs will reign with Christ in heaven for the first 1000 years, and then there will be the first resurrection. Then those who are raised with reign with Christ for another 1000 years as priests of God and of Christ. This links with the Scripture that says that we are kings and priests unto God (Revelation 1:6).

It seems that your reference of Rev 1:6 is associated with the period of time after the GWTR judgement where the Saints will receive their inheritance of the whole earth, Abraham and his righteous descendants included, and it is then that the Saints will rule the earth with Christ forever more. The first resurrection are the beheaded saints who have not taken the mark of Satan at the beginning of the Millennium Age, and then after Satan is dispatched into the Lake of Fire along with Death and Hades at the end of the Millennium Age, all the living and the dead are gathered together before the throne for the GWTR judgement, and those not found in the book of the Life will be also thrown into the lake of fire.
 

Paul Christensen

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It seems that your reference of Rev 1:6 is associated with the period of time after the GWTR judgement where the Saints will receive their inheritance of the whole earth, Abraham and his righteous descendants included, and it is then that the Saints will rule the earth with Christ forever more. The first resurrection are the beheaded saints who have not taken the mark of Satan at the beginning of the Millennium Age, and then after Satan is dispatched into the Lake of Fire along with Death and Hades at the end of the Millennium Age, all the living and the dead are gathered together before the throne for the GWTR judgement, and those not found in the book of the Life will be also thrown into the lake of fire.
It depends on how we read the passage. We have to take into account the statement of Paul in Thessalonians where he says "The dead in Christ will rise first, and we who are alive shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air". This also speaks of the first resurrection, with the second resurrection of the unsaved dead later on. If you are speaking on a different resurrection of the martyrs, then you are saying that there are three resurrections, which doesn't make sense. The principle of Scripture interpreting Scripture must apply here.
 

Jay Ross

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It depends on how we read the passage. We have to take into account the statement of Paul in Thessalonians where he says "The dead in Christ will rise first, and we who are alive shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air". This also speaks of the first resurrection, with the second resurrection of the unsaved dead later on. If you are speaking on a different resurrection of the martyrs, then you are saying that there are three resurrections, which doesn't make sense. The principle of Scripture interpreting Scripture must apply here.

But do you not have a rapture position to fit your understanding into? If so, then you are the one who has the need for a three resurrection theory.

I do not have a "rapture escape position" to force my understanding of scripture into a three resurrection position as you have suggested.

Rev 20:4-6 tell us that the first resurrection, which happens at the beginning of the Millennium Age, are the saint who had been beheaded for their witness of Christ. The second resurrection of the rest of those who sleep will occur at the end of the Millennium Age, both the righteous and the wicked, are resurrected at the same time, and as Paul tells us, the Saint among the second resurrection will rise up first to join Christ in the air/clouds and descend with Him to stand in front of the throne where Christ will sit to judge both the righteous and the wicked. I do not see a third resurrect of the dead as you have suggested.

It seems to me that your biased blinkers are inhibiting your understanding of the scriptures.

Shalom
 

CharismaticLady

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The above Biblical quote from Rev 20 does not support your POV. It is silent as to where Christ and the beheaded saints reign. Rev 19 suggest that Christ remains in heaven with his army until after the Bottomless pit is opened and Christ then goes out to capture the Beast and the False Prophet.

In Dan 7:13-14 we are told that Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him, but this passage is also silent as to where Christ exercised the dominion He was given.

I do not believe that you have provided scriptural proof that Christ will rule the earth on the earth for 1,000 years.

Both Rev 19 and 20 indicates that Christ will rule the earth from Heaven as our High Priest with the beheaded Saint who also act as priests dueing this 1,000 year period.


I see Christ's second coming in Revelation 19:
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.


And His reign on earth for 1000 years in Revelation 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
 

Paul Christensen

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But do you not have a rapture position to fit your understanding into? If so, then you are the one who has the need for a three resurrection theory.

I do not have a "rapture escape position" to force my understanding of scripture into a three resurrection position as you have suggested.

Rev 20:4-6 tell us that the first resurrection, which happens at the beginning of the Millennium Age, are the saint who had been beheaded for their witness of Christ. The second resurrection of the rest of those who sleep will occur at the end of the Millennium Age, both the righteous and the wicked, are resurrected at the same time, and as Paul tells us, the Saint among the second resurrection will rise up first to join Christ in the air/clouds and descend with Him to stand in front of the throne where Christ will sit to judge both the righteous and the wicked. I do not see a third resurrect of the dead as you have suggested.

It seems to me that your biased blinkers are inhibiting your understanding of the scriptures.

Shalom
Paul does not mention the resurrection of the unsaved dead in the Thessalonians passage. He mentions only the dead in Christ who rise first. That is the first resurrection. To make Paul say that both the saved and the unsaved dead rise at the same time is putting words into his mouth that are not there.

I take my position on these things from what the various Scriptures actually say and when the Thessalonians and the Revelation passages are combined, I see that all of the dead in Christ, including those who were martyred rise at exactly the same time, along with those who are still alive who are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. When Paul says "the dead in Christ shall rise first", he does not mean "some of the dead shall rise first". We can't take one Scripture at the expense of another, because it is the same Holy Spirit who inspired both, and He doesn't say one thing and then contradict it in another place.

The second resurrection is that of the unsaved dead who go to Judgment. This then means that there are just two resurrections, which is in keeping with there being just two classes of people - those in Christ, and those unsaved.

If therefore, by interpreting Scripture with Scripture I am biased, as you say, then I am biased. I just see and believe what the Scripture actually says and not try and adapt (or twist) the Scripture to fit my theological thinking.
 

Dcopymope

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I think you have missed the part in the reference that there are two periods of a thousand years. I grant that the first 1000 years the martyrs will reign with Christ in heaven for the first 1000 years, and then there will be the first resurrection. Then those who are raised with reign with Christ for another 1000 years as priests of God and of Christ. This links with the Scripture that says that we are kings and priests unto God (Revelation 1:6).

default_hmm.gif
But it says there is only one 1,000 year period, and never says anything about their being more than one resurrection for the saints. The only other resurrection described in the account is for unbelievers to face judgement.

(Revelation 20:4-6) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. {5} But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. {6} Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

(Revelation 20:11-13) "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. {12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
 

Paul Christensen

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Ummmmmmmmm, NO.


Bobby Jo
So, how do you read the reference? It is not enough to say "no" without justifying your answer. Our authority is not because we say it, but what does the Scripture say? The reference clearly shows two periods of 1000 years - clear as the nose on your face - and you are asserting that your 'NO!" is more authoritative than the clear text of the Scripture? :eek:
 

Paul Christensen

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default_hmm.gif
But it says there is only one 1,000 year period, and never says anything about their being more than one resurrection for the saints. The only other resurrection described in the account is for unbelievers to face judgement.
I agree totally. But we have a friend who is using the Revelation reference that sets the martyrs having their own resurrection before the others, which ignores what Paul says about the resurrection of the dead in Christ in his letter to the Thessalonians. We see in Thessalonians that Paul says "the dead in Christ shall rise first". He doesn't say "the martyrs in Christ shall rise first, and then the others in the second resurrection" which is what our friend is trying to say.
 
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Dcopymope

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I agree totally. But we have a friend who is using the Revelation reference that sets the martyrs having their own resurrection before the others, which ignores what Paul says about the resurrection of the dead in Christ in his letter to the Thessalonians. We see in Thessalonians that Paul says "the dead in Christ shall rise first". He doesn't say "the martyrs in Christ shall rise first, and then the others in the second resurrection" which is what our friend is trying to say.

I see, well, you know how it goes, people will see what they want to see in scripture. The first resurrection is partly about the saints conquering the second death, which is the lake of fire, so if he believes that other Christians will be resurrected later, then they are in very serious trouble.
 
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Bobby Jo

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So, how do you read the reference? ...

When I provided a Historical account where Cyrus NEVER had a DUAL MONARCHY, but Caesar did, -- you ignored it. When I provided a Historical account where Alexander's empire was divided between FIVE GENERALS for 42 YEARS, -- you ignored it.

So why should I answer what you've proven you IGNORE?!?
Bobby Jo
 

Keraz

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I agree totally. But we have a friend who is using the Revelation reference that sets the martyrs having their own resurrection before the others, which ignores what Paul says about the resurrection of the dead in Christ in his letter to the Thessalonians. We see in Thessalonians that Paul says "the dead in Christ shall rise first". He doesn't say "the martyrs in Christ shall rise first, and then the others in the second resurrection" which is what our friend is trying to say.
But the proper exegesis of 1 Thess 4:17 and Revelation 20:4, is that they refer to the same people, namely: the Tribulation martyrs.
Otherwise there is a Bible anomaly.

Revelation 20:5 plainly states that the rest of the dead, Christians and all; do not rise again until the end of the Millennium, at the GWTJ.
 

Paul Christensen

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But the proper exegesis of 1 Thess 4:17 and Revelation 20:4, is that they refer to the same people, namely: the Tribulation martyrs.
Otherwise there is a Bible anomaly.

Revelation 20:5 plainly states that the rest of the dead, Christians and all; do not rise again until the end of the Millennium, at the GWTJ.

What I see in Scripture is that the first resurrection is for the dead in Christ and the second resurrection is for the unsaved to judgment. Whether there is a rapture before or after the Millennium has been debated to the max and I won't be going down that rabbit hole.
 

Bobby Jo

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... I won't be going down that rabbit hole.

GOD is too confusing. HE knows we can't understand what HE says, but HE says it none the less or all the more. HE's a cruel GOD who teases us with HIS "TRUTH" all the while knowing that we can't comprehend it. I don't like GOD.

What?
Bobby Jo
 

Jay Ross

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Paul does not mention the resurrection of the unsaved dead in the Thessalonians passage. He mentions only the dead in Christ who rise first. That is the first resurrection. To make Paul say that both the saved and the unsaved dead rise at the same time is putting words into his mouth that are not there.

I take my position on these things from what the various Scriptures actually say and when the Thessalonians and the Revelation passages are combined, I see that all of the dead in Christ, including those who were martyred rise at exactly the same time, along with those who are still alive who are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. When Paul says "the dead in Christ shall rise first", he does not mean "some of the dead shall rise first". We can't take one Scripture at the expense of another, because it is the same Holy Spirit who inspired both, and He doesn't say one thing and then contradict it in another place.

The second resurrection is that of the unsaved dead who go to Judgment. This then means that there are just two resurrections, which is in keeping with there being just two classes of people - those in Christ, and those unsaved.

If therefore, by interpreting Scripture with Scripture I am biased, as you say, then I am biased. I just see and believe what the Scripture actually says and not try and adapt (or twist) the Scripture to fit my theological thinking.

If there is a split second between the righteous and the wicked during the second resurrection as recorded in Revelations 20 then are you not arguing over trivia as too whether both occurred at the end of the Ages of the Age just before the the judgement of the people before the white throne.

In Ezekiel 34:17 we are told that there will be two judgments made. The first is separating the flock from the flock or to put it another way, those that acknowledge God and those that do not, or to put it another way, those that still call God Lord and those that do not, which is then followed by the separation of the "he goats" from the rams which Christ described in the Matt 25:41-46 parable of the separation of the sheep from the goats.

In the first judgement, those that do not call God Lord are separated out to go into the lake of fire, with the second judgement of the people who call God Lord into the goats and the sheep, i.e. those that have a heart after God's heart and those that do not. Those that do not have heart after God's heart are separated out to go into the Lake of fire to join the Beast, the False Prophet and Satan.

Does not scripture also tell us that all of the people of the earth, both the living and the dead, the righteous and the unrighteous, will see Christ coming on the clouds with all of the Hosts of Heaven and Paul tells us the order of the righteous, in 1 Thess 4:17, who will rise up to meet Christ in the air.

Now in Matt 7:21-23 Jesus told us this: -

Matthew 7:21-23: - 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'​

Now is Paul in 1 Thess 4:13-18 describing the first separation of the flock from the flock, in Ez 34:17, where Paul is not giving or making a judgement call over the people who call Jesus Lord or their motives in doing so?

By making a reference to myself, in your post above where you said: -
I agree totally. But we have a friend who is using the Revelation reference that sets the martyrs having their own resurrection before the others, which ignores what Paul says about the resurrection of the dead in Christ in his letter to the Thessalonians. We see in Thessalonians that Paul says "the dead in Christ shall rise first". He doesn't say "the martyrs in Christ shall rise first, and then the others in the second resurrection" which is what our friend is trying to say.
You have made a judgment call on what I have posted and have separated yourself into the "Rapture" camp/bias in your understanding.

Did not Jesus also warn us about trying to save ourselves when he said: -

Matthew 16:24-27: - 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.​

We all need to heed Jesus' warnings to us. I trust that you have and are doing so.

Shalom