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Rapture is not in the Bible

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by rockytopva, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    That's the great thing about having the Holy Spirit...you are in the loop, and have the mind of Christ, the spirit of prophecy.
     
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  2. n2thelight

    n2thelight Active Member

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    Yea Daniel may have not known ,however what he wrote was.
    Just as Paul.

    The Word is in harmony,regardless of who knew what!!!
     
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  3. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    actually when Jesus spoke about preparing a place, He said that His Father's house has many chambers and this is sometimes mistranslated as mansions. This is insignificant by itself, however Noah's ark had many chambers to house the creatures saved through the judgment and we find Isaiah warnig God's people to enter their chambers to wait through the indignation (God's wrath), and we also find the passage that tells us that the Lord will be a shelter for his people in the day of judgment (Joel 3:15-17 ), as well as Jesus' references to the days of Noah. The bible says a great deal about the judgment of the nation of Israel and about its restoration. If the Old Testament scripture is given for the church's understanding, don't the same warnings apply, fleshly to fleshly, spiritual to spiritual?
    Don't kid yourself. Our God is a god of grace or no one would survive, but God is Holy and there are no free rides.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  4. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    That is indeed insightful, and we know that these things were a foreshadowing of things to come.

    But I was referring to Keras' comment about the church not going to heaven, which is to say the kingdom of God. Which is to deny the promise of God.
     
  5. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    So you are saying that the Father then gave the insight to Paul before He gave it to Messiah? Messiah, upon getting the information from the Father, then gave it to an angel who then gave it to John. Paul rates higher, by getting the information before Messiah as you are implying, than God's own Son regarding these things? Or what did the Father do... diss His own Son and do an end run around to the HS to hand out the information before the Son was on to it? That is a rabbit hole if there ever was one.
     
  6. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    John spoke of those things revealed to him, and Paul spoke of those things revealed to him. But the Source is the same God, and therefore if they agree, it is no surprise.

    Also, there is no advantage to considering things on a timeline. Time is of the world, and the kingdom of God, of which these things speak, is not. On the contrary, Jesus came in the fullness of time but made it clear, "before Abraham was, I am."
     
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  7. n2thelight

    n2thelight Active Member

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    John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

    Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

    What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.

    John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

    This is Jesus' promise to you and I today, as much as it was to those eleven disciples sitting at the supper table with Him two thousand years ago. Jesus is telling us that we can count on Him, He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.

    John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

    Why? Because for the last three years Jesus told them over and over about His journey to the cross, His death and His resurrection. This is the way to the place where the preparation is made for theirs and our return to Him. That way leads down the path to the cross, and at His death it leads into the tomb where on the third day, Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to be with the father fifty days later.

    Our resting place is in His Word, and under the shed blood of Jesus.
     
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  8. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Some people understand the kingdom of heaven as coming down to earth for a thousand years, but with some role reversals or changes. The OT prophets describe things such as all the host of heaven being cast down to the earth. The host of heaven can refer to stars or it can refer to the angelic host or all heavenly creatures. Our understanding of the physical nature of stars excludes the 1st possibility. When considering the text, you have to ask why all the angels are cast down, and while the text isn't explicit the context is the judgment of God upon His creation (which includes the angelic beings). Guess who will be judging the angels.
    It was the Old Testament prophets initially that wrote about the coming of the Lord in glory together with His saints and with His Holy Angels, and bringing His reward with Him. Since God keeps His word entirely, the saints have to be with Christ at His return and this is what the NT scripture teaches as well, hence the necessity of a "catching up" to meet the Lord in the air. Preachers who teach the hidden rapture doctrine tend to be woefully ignorant of the Old Testament prophets and the books of Moses, but there has to be a transformation of our earthly bodies into glorified ones before we are "caught up", (our physical bodies aren't designed for even the lowest heaven, much less the heaven of heavens.)
    I can see how the hidden rapture doctrine was imagined from reading into the NT scripture, but it remains contradictory to the body of scripture (the OT texts being read and reasonably understood) and contrary to the character of God as revealed in Christ Jesus who remains without partiality and entirely committed to His word (He does not change.)
     
  9. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, most of the confusion comes from misunderstanding the terms of translation: first from eternal language to worldly, then that of different times and customs.

    For instance, you mentioned the "earthly bodies into glorified" bodies. We have our answer, which is "first the flesh and then the spirit", and specifically "not that body" of flesh. But if we have a comfort for all we have ever known and are reluctant to change, then we will imagine that surely God has some evolved hybrid glorified flesh bodies in store for us...when all along God whom is perfect, is only spirit...is somehow not imaginable.

    Thanks. Most are in for many big surprises.
     
  10. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't completely discount the notion of physicality in our resurrected bodies, as Christ demonstrated physical interaction with Thomas after His resurrection and at the shore of Galilee when he met with the disciples before His ascension. After all, God built us to have pleasure as well as joy. I don't believe God gave us such a good gift only to take it away for eternity, but then again we may not have a desire for physical pleasure in the resurrection. However, if we're like the angels in that respect, they seem to have had "worldly desires" which cost some of them their freedom.
     
  11. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    I guess this pertains to the rapture, kinda, sorta...

    Certainly God whom is spirit is completely capable of physical manifestation, but has called it "lower", and "passing away." But what Christ made clear to Thomas and the other apostles, was not glorified flesh, but "resurrected" flesh...which is not to say, "ascended" flesh. No, the flesh is not a "good gift" but a curse, the shame of those who once walked without covering in the garden. On the contrary, He went to the Father...whom is spirit. There should be no question or confusion about which is greater and in store for those who become One with God. God is spirit.
     
  12. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Well, we can only make judgments based upon what we know and what we've experienced in some manner, directly or indirectly. Story telling, especially when its complete with emotion and physical expression is just about the only way that we can imagine ourselves in someone else's experience and in one we haven't directly encountered. When it comes to heavenly things, we have descriptions in scripture of heavenly scenes as interpreted by the minds of the prophets, but of things not readily described in our language. Some of these things described are symbolic of purpose and meaning obviously as when they describe the person of our Lord the Holy Spirit. How do you describe spirit in physical terms? Generally you see this in analogy with the visible effect of God's power as in "the breath of God moved upon the waters".
    My understanding is that regardless of whether you understand things in physical terms or in spiritual terms, the end result is pretty much the same; you're either with the Lord and pleased to be, or separated from Him and in misery.
     
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  13. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    That is true, in general. But the issue that I addressed was regarding the "last trumpet" that Paul mentioned. it is hubris to assume that Paul was referring to any trumpets in Revelation, because those details are not laid out specifically in the rest of scripture. Events that correspond to those trumpets, sure, but not the trumpets themselves. That is was specifically given to Yeshua to pass on to us thru John.

    But given that Paul was a highly trained Jewish theologian, it is far more realistic to assume that he was referring to Yom Teruah (feast of trumpets) regarding his use of "last trumpet" and "twinkling of an eye". Those are solid idioms used for Yom Teruah that anyone with a dose of Jewish thought would immediately picture in their mind. And the phrase Yeshua used, "no man knows the day" is also a solid idiom for Yom Teruah. It is a day that can only be determined when it starts by at least two certified witnesses in Jerusalem confirming the new moon which establishes the new month, and Yom Teruah is the only feast day that falls on the first of a month. Yom Teruah is therefore called "the day that no man knows".

    Michael has it right. The end goal is the same. The only thing in dispute is how it all happens.
     
  14. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    The point is...whether such language points to the beginning or to the end, whether by John or by Paul it is all One spirit, it points to Christ.
     
  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    reflect on the possibility that that might be "one at a time, each in his own time, a revelation and a tribulation in every soul."

    Armageddon is the battle for the center of you
     
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    While the HS does use idioms, allegories, puns, etc.... valid grammatical devices, i don't take many concepts as allegorical unless the context suggests that. I am more into the "if the passage makes sense, then seek no other sense" kind of view. Basic cross referencing between passages that talk about the same thing. I never was drawn in to Hellenistic style allegorical scripture interpretation that some do and did in the past in trying to find that deeper mystical meaning to passages unless the passage implies that.

    When the prophets describe end times scenarios in such detail that they are like they were taken out of the latest Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical manuals used in current government and military entities, I get the distinct impression that their description has more to do with literal events than battles within oneself.
     
  17. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    The difference, and what is "hidden", is the difference that Jesus eluded to, between that which is earthly and that which is heavenly, physical or spiritual:

    John 3:12
    If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

    John 16:12
    “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

    ...As Paul indicated:

    1 Corinthians 2:14
    But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    So, then, if we are to "seek first the kingdom" as Christ has said, should we then seek what is seen, or what is unseen and hidden?

    I say, "seek first the kingdom", seek what is hidden.
     
  18. Copperhead

    Copperhead Active Member

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    But there is more to the story than good 'ol fashioned Christianity. There were many distinct promises that were made in a purely physical, earthly sense that are not related to any "spiritual" condition, and have yet to be fulfilled.

    None of those verses you posted lend justification for taking any other particular passage for more than the plain sense that they were written. Just because the "natural man" doesn't receive the things of the spirit is not a a license to spiritualize every passage of scripture. Doing so removes any objective standard and allows anyone to "spiritualize" any passage to meet any preconceived ideology they want. Then it becomes a free for all and there eventually becomes no objective standard of determining who is right or wrong doctrinally. Just saying that one's doctrine is the true one doesn't make it so. It is purely subjective.

    This is why I don't ascribe to a allegorical or spiritualizing of the scripture, except only those passages where it is clearly intended. Something like...

    Psalms 17:8 (NKJV Strong's,) Keep me as the apple of Your eye;
    Hide me under the shadow of Your wings,

    Obviously, God is not a bird and doesn't have feathers. That is clearly idiomatic and allegorical.
     
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