Rapture is not in the Bible

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Copperhead

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Unbelievable!
Your belief in the rapture forces you to make totally unbiblical statements! Don't you realize that those chosen, the elect are not just Jews and they cannot be lost. 1 Peter 2:9-10

It does depend a little on perspective. God says that Israel is His elect here:

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And I think we can agree that all of Israel has never been good enough to never be lost. Seems like some pretty nasty kings and others in the OT that were of Israel. But God considers all Israel His elect. However, some if not many, were lost. Now when it comes to those that trust in Messiah and make up His body, sure, they are elect also and cannot be lost. So there has to be some distinction on what group is in view when talking about election. And while those that trust in Messiah are indeed grafted in, that doesn't mean that Israel as a whole is no longer elect.
 

michaelvpardo

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For the pretender (s):
10. "Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.11. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.12. "Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.13. "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.'' Daniel 12:10-13
So which resurrection is this and when will it happen as Daniel was obviously not a part of the "New Testament" church?
3. Then the king instructed Ashpenaz, the master of his eunuchs, to bring some of the children of Israel and some of the king's descendants and some of the nobles, 4. young men in whom there was no blemish, but good-looking, gifted in all wisdom, possessing knowledge and quick to understand, who had ability to serve in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the language and literature of the Chaldeans.5. And the king appointed for them a daily provision of the king's delicacies and of the wine which he drank, and three years of training for them, so that at the end of that time they might serve before the king.6. Now from among those of the sons of Judah were Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah.7. To them the chief of the eunuchs gave names: he gave Daniel the name Belteshazzar; to Hananiah, Shadrach; to Mishael, Meshach; and to Azariah, Abed-Nego. Daniel 1:3-7
Now, this requires some actual thought, but why is the king directing the master of his eunuchs to bring young men, including Daniel and his 3 friends. Why not the captain of the guard or some other official that might be responsible for them? Why was it the chief of the eunuchs that gave Daniel and his friends their Babylonian names, rather than a magician, or other member of his court? Think real hard now.
Why is there nothing at all said about any wife of Daniel or of his 3 friends (did God forget them because they were unimportant?)
I count 4 virgin servants of the Lord right there, but oh yes, they're not part of the New Testament Church. But of course, Jewish saints don't count, their church obviously doesn't count as millions of "Christians" believe that the Roman church pre-existed the church in Jerusalem (some kind of time warp thing) that's why God will take the rest of the church away and leave them here. What complete hogwash and what a racist doctrine!
Good luck with your rapture though, I hope everything goes well for those who offend.
41. "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42. "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43. "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:41-43
Well there's a good reason not to be raptured, unless your looking to be cast into the furnace of fire. Never mind, maybe Jesus was just confused or something.
If the tone of my post strikes you as annoyed, you'd be right. I'm 60 years old and a little tired of dealing with the generation of God's wrath.
 
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michaelvpardo

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It does depend a little on perspective. God says that Israel is His elect here:

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And I think we can agree that all of Israel has never been good enough to never be lost. Seems like some pretty nasty kings and others in the OT that were of Israel. But God considers all Israel His elect. However, some if not many, were lost. Now when it comes to those that trust in Messiah and make up His body, sure, they are elect also and cannot be lost. So there has to be some distinction on what group is in view when talking about election. And while those that trust in Messiah are indeed grafted in, that doesn't mean that Israel as a whole is no longer elect.
No one has ever been good enough, but God Himself.
 
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Stranger

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Are you serious? You couldn't possibly do my work for me. My work was prepared for me to do, no one else. If you know the Lord, then the same is true for you.

Yes, I am serious. Give the Scriptural reference of what you are asking and explanation of your question.

Well, if your work was prepared for you to do...then do it. I'm not going to do yours for you.

Stranger
 

n2thelight

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Lots of people think they are saved, by being a church member, or being baptized, or praying a prayer, or receiving "sacraments," etc. , however the saints are those who have been born again of the Spirit of God, and this is actually the ultimate work of biblical faith and a work performed by God, not by us.

Not sure if you followed what I was saying.I'm talking about actual people of God,which the elect are,my question was ,how do they miss this rapture?

On another note,being born again means what to you?
 

n2thelight

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Here, the time is given... No less than four times:

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Where does those verses say we go to Heaven?
 
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michaelvpardo

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Not sure if you followed what I was saying.I'm talking about actual people of God,which the elect are,my question was ,how do they miss this rapture?

On another note,being born again means what to you?
Being born again means receiving a new Spirit from God, His Spirit. We are all born with the same breath of life that Adam received from God (life is continuous, it doesn't start at conception. Gametes are alive, not dead tissue.) But Adam came under the curse of God for his rebellion (his willful choice to join Eve in her disobedience.) That curse was as much upon the spirit of Adam as upon his flesh. He was alive physically, but became dead spiritually, separated from God by his sin and transgression. This fallen spirit in man is what the New Testament scripture refers to as the "old man", "in Adam", the "way of the flesh", the "natural man", the "spirit of this world", the "spirit of error", etc. This is why the Apostle identifies us all as children of wrath until such a time as God rescues us by breathing His Spirit into us a second time, renewing our spirit and making us alive in Him, by faith in His Son. You don't find all of this in a single verse, but most people are familiar with John 3:16 and that passage is where Jesus describes those who are born again of His Spirit. The Apostle Paul made multiple references to this in His epistles and the concept is also found in the Old Testament prophetic books which speak in advance of a new covenant "of peace". The Lord makes us, who were once dead in transgression and sin, alive through His Spirit. If you need scriptural reference, I can provide a few pages of them, but I'll need to use my computer instead of this kindle ( to copy and paste whole passages.) This is a doctrine taught fairly extensively in scripture, not one built from random cherry picked verses.
 

ScottA

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Where does those verses say we go to Heaven?
The dead are "raised" is a direct tie to the resurrection we have in Christ (who has gone to the Father to prepare a place for us), and our Father in "Heaven."
 

keras

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The dead are "raised" is a direct tie to the resurrection we have in Christ (who has gone to the Father to prepare a place for us), and our Father in "Heaven."
But nowhere does the Bible say that God will take the Church to heaven. You have to add that to scriptures that actually mean something else, like the 1 Cor 15:50-56 prophecy, that is all about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgement. Rev 20:11-15 Only then, is Death no more.
We Christians have the promise of eternal life, but not the reality until at the end of God's 7000 years plan for humanity.
 

ScottA

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But nowhere does the Bible say that God will take the Church to heaven. You have to add that to scriptures that actually mean something else, like the 1 Cor 15:50-56 prophecy, that is all about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgement. Rev 20:11-15 Only then, is Death no more.
We Christians have the promise of eternal life, but not the reality until at the end of God's 7000 years plan for humanity.
You are being petty and shortsighted.

If Jesus prayed to "our Father in heaven", then said "I go to prepare a place for you", then said, "I go to the Father", "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also"...then, He has said it, and there is no room for such foolish talk.
 
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Copperhead

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To add to that Scott, Isaiah 26 is a great support text for the verses you are referencing. Both the resurrected dead along with the righteous are to hide themselves in their chambers during this terrible time. When Yeshua said in John 14:2 that there were many mansions (KJV), rooms (NIV), dwelling places (LITV & NASB), in heaven, that should prompt one to think about Isaiah 26. Chambers, Rooms, all the same thing.

Psalm 27:5 supports it further.

Difficult to understand why Yeshua would go to such great lengths to create dwelling places if the Church doesn't use them?

But if one studies the ancient traditional Jewish betrothal and wedding, it comes really clear. The groom pays a price (dowery) to the girls father and the deal is sealed with a cup of wine that the groom and his fiancé share. Now she is set apart for the groom and no other. After the betrothal, the groom returns to his father's house to prepare a place for him and his bride. Meanwhile, the bride spends the time making herself ready for when the groom will return. The groom can only return for his bride once the father approves of the place that the groom has been building for himself and the bride. If he is asked when the wedding will be, he is to reply "only my father knows". She doesn't know what day he will return, only that she must make herself ready. When he does come to get her, usually under cover of darkness like a thief to come steal away his bride to himself, he takes her to the place he has prepared and they remain there for 7 days consummating the marriage. Then they are revealed and the wedding feast begins.

A beautiful example of the Messiah and His bride, the Church. One can find out these little nuggets in studying ancient Jewish customs. You know... the customs that Yeshua was quite familiar with. He used the analogy of the Jewish wedding a number of times.
 
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n2thelight

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You are being petty and shortsighted.

If Jesus prayed to "our Father in heaven", then said "I go to prepare a place for you", then said, "I go to the Father", "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also"...then, He has said it, and there is no room for such foolish talk.

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

Jesus is telling us that He doesn't want us to worry. As we go through this fourteenth chapter, we will return to this verse several times. If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, and you believe on Him, then you don't have anything to worry about. Now He is going to tell us why.

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Have you ever heard Christians say before, "I have a mansion in the sky"? Friend, that is not what "mansions" is talking about here, however it is even more beautiful then those thoughts of a large house in the sky. Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

This is Jesus' promise to you and I today, as much as it was to those eleven disciples sitting at the supper table with Him two thousand years ago. Jesus is telling us that we can count on Him, He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Why? Because for the last three years Jesus told them over and over about His journey to the cross, His death and His resurrection. This is the way to the place where the preparation is made for theirs and our return to Him. That way leads down the path to the cross, and at His death it leads into the tomb where on the third day, Jesus rose for the dead to ascended to be with the father fifty days later.

Our resting place is in His Word, and under the shed blood of Jesus.
 
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Copperhead

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It's in his 2nd letter

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.


The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

Well let's take a look at what many translations said about 2 Thessalonians 2:3 prior to the KJV and modern translations.

They all translated apostasia as a departure, not falling away. It wasn't until the KJV that anyone considered that apostasia meant falling away. Only when the KJV translators tried to use apostasy as the definition of apostasia did things go amiss. Here are a few pre-KJV translations on apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

The Tyndale Bible (1526 / 1534) a departynge fyrst

The Coverdale Bible (1539) a departynge come firft

The Cranmer Bible (1539) a departynge fyrst

The Geneva Bible (1557 / 1608) a departing first

Along with the Wycliff Bible (1384), Tyndale Bible (1526), Beza Bible (1583), Breches Bible (1576), etc.

The Latin Vulgate uses the word discessio for apostasia. Discessio has a physical departure in view also as opposed to a defection from the faith. Given that the LV came on the scene roughly the 4th century, I think they just might have had a pretty good grasp on the Greek as used in scripture. Especially being 1000 years closer to the original than the KJV and modern translations. It would be the height of arrogance to think that everyone had it wrong until the KJV came on the scene.

It would seem, from the evidence, that a physical departure before the man of sin is revealed is a long standing view and that "falling away" is a relatively recent interpretive invention. Kenneth Wuest, a well known Greek Scholar, in his multi volume work expounding on the NT, stated that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 means a departure as a clear reference to the removal of the righteous before the man of sin can be revealed. That comports to all the scripture references above.

With all deference to James Strong, Robert Young, et al and the concordances they have produced, on this one they got it wrong. Keep in mind, their concordances are not inspired cannon.

The evidence shows that a departure BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed is a solid position backed up by many translators of the Greek text.
 

n2thelight

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Well let's take a look at what many translations said about 2 Thessalonians 2:3 prior to the KJV and modern translations.

They all translated apostasia as a departure, not falling away. It wasn't until the KJV that anyone considered that apostasia meant falling away. Only when the KJV translators tried to use apostasy as the definition of apostasia did things go amiss. Here are a few pre-KJV translations on apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3:

The Tyndale Bible (1526 / 1534) a departynge fyrst

The Coverdale Bible (1539) a departynge come firft

The Cranmer Bible (1539) a departynge fyrst

The Geneva Bible (1557 / 1608) a departing first

Along with the Wycliff Bible (1384), Tyndale Bible (1526), Beza Bible (1583), Breches Bible (1576), etc.

The Latin Vulgate uses the word discessio for apostasia. Discessio has a physical departure in view also as opposed to a defection from the faith. Given that the LV came on the scene roughly the 4th century, I think they just might have had a pretty good grasp on the Greek as used in scripture. Especially being 1000 years closer to the original than the KJV and modern translations. It would be the height of arrogance to think that everyone had it wrong until the KJV came on the scene.

It would seem, from the evidence, that a physical departure before the man of sin is revealed is a long standing view and that "falling away" is a relatively recent interpretive invention. Kenneth Wuest, a well known Greek Scholar, in his multi volume work expounding on the NT, stated that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 means a departure as a clear reference to the removal of the righteous before the man of sin can be revealed. That comports to all the scripture references above.

With all deference to James Strong, Robert Young, et al and the concordances they have produced, on this one they got it wrong. Keep in mind, their concordances are not inspired cannon.

The evidence shows that a departure BEFORE the man of sin can be revealed is a solid position backed up by many translators of the Greek text.

That makes no sense

The subject is our gathering to Christ,at His return

I mean look at what you said ,we can't gather to Christ until we gather to Christ,in other words Christ can't return until we are gone...

The falling away is of the below scripture.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"
 

keras

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You are being petty and shortsighted.

If Jesus prayed to "our Father in heaven", then said "I go to prepare a place for you", then said, "I go to the Father", "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also"...then, He has said it, and there is no room for such foolish talk.
I am being honest and truthful.
If you like to think you will be raptured to heaven and given immortality before the Judgement and the Book of Life is opened, then you are seriously in error and have failed to read scripture properly.
The John 14:1-3 place prepared is the New Jerusalem that comes down to earth after the Millennium.
Jesus will gather His people when He Returns, just as Matthew 24:31 says. To where He is; in Jerusalem.
 

ScottA

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I am being honest and truthful.
If you like to think you will be raptured to heaven and given immortality before the Judgement and the Book of Life is opened, then you are seriously in error and have failed to read scripture properly.
The John 14:1-3 place prepared is the New Jerusalem that comes down to earth after the Millennium.
Jesus will gather His people when He Returns, just as Matthew 24:31 says. To where He is; in Jerusalem.
Your explanation is riddled (literally) with parable language which you have not successfully understood or portrayed, and your timing is complete darkness.

The "when" you mention, was today, the day of Pentecost, and each in his own order to follow.
The "place' and the "where" is within you.
 

ScottA

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John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

Jesus is telling us that He doesn't want us to worry. As we go through this fourteenth chapter, we will return to this verse several times. If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, and you believe on Him, then you don't have anything to worry about. Now He is going to tell us why.

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Have you ever heard Christians say before, "I have a mansion in the sky"? Friend, that is not what "mansions" is talking about here, however it is even more beautiful then those thoughts of a large house in the sky. Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

This is Jesus' promise to you and I today, as much as it was to those eleven disciples sitting at the supper table with Him two thousand years ago. Jesus is telling us that we can count on Him, He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Why? Because for the last three years Jesus told them over and over about His journey to the cross, His death and His resurrection. This is the way to the place where the preparation is made for theirs and our return to Him. That way leads down the path to the cross, and at His death it leads into the tomb where on the third day, Jesus rose for the dead to ascended to be with the father fifty days later.

Our resting place is in His Word, and under the shed blood of Jesus.
That is all appreciated and a comfort...but it does not shed any light on the word as revealed in spirit. That is all a consolation and a put-off until "someday."

But what is a timeline of events without "today" (you will be with me in paradise. Today is the day of salvation), or "I am coming quickly?" We have a real problem with the timing. And instead of saying "I know what the scriptures say, but I don't get why He said 'today'", too many turn and say "someday." Nonetheless, He said "today", and "someday" is wrong...unless of course, we put it off.