Rapture, Prophecy, Church, and the Nation of Israel- Last Generation

[n2thelight]

Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are the same eventThe following demonstrate very well that all three passages in the Bible that are referring to the second coming of Christ are precisely that. God never intended for His Word to be cryptic or some mountain of confusion where one or more passages are supposedly referring to the second coming and others to some supposed fictional secret rapture.

By comparing point by point in the following two passages, we can observe that both of the following two chapters are referring to the same event. Observe the perfect parallels below.


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Corinthians 15:23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming."

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Now compare Matthew 24 with the above events using 1 Thessalonians since some erroneously teach that Matthew 24 is talking about the glorious second coming of Jesus, which they teach is a different event to the above chapters which they say refers to a secret rapture.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh our to the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thiefwould come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

As you can see, not only are these the same event and so parallel each other perfectly but are even in the same order. There are not two different aspects of the return of Jesus. There is only one second coming and the theory of a secret rapture with a second chance is just another deception of the enemy.

Matthew 24
Jesus coming ,Trumpet,angels gather saints,coming in the clouds

1Thess 4
Jesus coming,Trumpet,dead saints raised,coming in clouds

1Corinth15
At His coming,Last trump,dead saints raised......

Christ only returns once more,which is the second coming.......

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Oh but it is....Those that Christ brings with Him, are those that who have died,prior to His return...That's the part you can't seem to understand.

The Day of the Lord, described by Paul in 1Th 4, marries well with the same description of the Day of the Lord Jesus gives us in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:29-31.
Now Revelation 14:14-16 does!
All three have the essential element of Christ's parousia: arriving on the clouds of Heaven to GATHER (harpazo) the Elect.
This is the Rapture: the same "exchanging" Paul describes in 1Co 15:50-51.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The Glorious Return
Mt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 19:11 does not describe the same thing.
The Church is already in Heaven and is heard as the Great Multitude at the introduction of this final parallel account within the book of Revelation in verse 1.
Rev 19:1 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, " Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God;

And again in verse 6:
Rev 19:6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, " Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.

This is on the eve of the final battle of Armageddon!
Rev 19 describes when Christ comes to the final battle of the one 'seven' - this is the climax - when the Rock which was made without hands destroys the rule of Man on the earth as foretold in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Doom of the Beast and False Prophet 20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

There are three elements here of particular note:
1. The scene is the final battle - previously described in a prior parallel account following the Rescue and Wrath of God in chapter 16.
2. His Army: (1st question) Does Jesus need billions to take on hundreds of millions? (2nd question) Who never leaves His Side?
3. A reiteration of the cause for the Great Tribulation which Jesus described as quoted above in Mt 24:29 - the "distress" of "those days".

1. The final battle is set up at the end of the one 'seven' in the detailed parallel account of the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ in chapters 13-16 (inclusive).
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har- Magedon.
This is the setting for not only the anti-Christ's Pyrrhic victory - gaining the whole world - but also THE battle for the world between ALL the assembled wicked warriors and our Lord.

2. His Army: We are not His Army. We are the Great Multitude cheering on our Champion.
Rev 14:4 These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
The 144,000 are not "witnesses" that go 2 by 2 and convert the Jews.
They are sealed and go with Jesus on the Day of the Lord - which is previously also described in Revelation chapter 14.
If anyone goes with Jesus as His Army - it is the 144,000 because they follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

3. In Revelation chapter 13, the Mark of the Beast, and the worshiping of the abomination (of) desolation is described AFTER the talking image is set up, and PRIOR to the Harvest of Rev 14.
These two things ARE the reason that the Great Tribulation is the worst time EVER, and ONLY affects the Elect - who die wholesale within it.
Saving the Elect so that some are alive and remain - Paul's words - is the reason the Great Tribulation is abruptly cut SHORT.

WHEN Jesus arrives on the Day of the Lord - on the clouds -

1. Jesus will have already alighted upon the earth on the Mount of Olives and split it (Mount Zion) (Acts 1:11; Rev 14:1)
2. He will have already mustered His Army: the 144,000. (Isa 5:26; 13:2-6; Jude 1:14; Rev 7:1-8; 14:1)
3. Three Angels will have already gone forth to complete the Great Commission. (Mt 24:14; Rev 14:6)
4. Jesus will have already resurrected those in Abraham's bosom - paradise - where the Dead in Christ "sleep" (rest). (ITh 4:16; 1Co 15:42-44)
5. And WITH THOSE SAINTS - He will come on the clouds AROUND the earth -gathering the Elect who are alive and remain. (Mt 24:31; 1Th 3:13; 4:17; Rev 14:14-16)

So I think I understand quite a bit, and now I am left wondering what it is you think I don't understand.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Please tell me how you using Matt and Mark,when scripture clearly says in those books that His coming is after the trib?

After the Great Tribulation.

It does not say at the end of the one 'seven'.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

And did you not know that the 13th of Mark has all the seals of Rev within it's chapter?

Actually my dear, I've already written on it. I use Matthew instead of Mark, and you have to go to Luke for the fourth horseman.

The seventh Seal is in none of the Gospel accounts. If you want to say it is: show me, please.

1 Jesus’ Olivet Discourse
For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many.
Seals of Revelation
I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

2 Jesus’ Olivet Discourse
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
Seals of Revelation
Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

3 Jesus’ Olivet Discourse
There will be famines and earthquakes in various places
Seals of Revelation
I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

4 Jesus’ Olivet Discourse
pestilences in various places (Luke 21:11)
Seals of Revelation
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

MT 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
We already have or have had all these things happening in this world today.

These haven't happened yet:
The fifth Seal is the Great Tribulation's results.
The sixth Seal is the Day of the Lord when we are gathered up.

The seventh Seal is not mentioned in Mark, Matthew, Luke, or John.
There is no wrath of God detailed to the Church in the Gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse: we are not destined for Wrath. (1Th 1:10)

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Christ only returns once more,which is the second coming.......

Once Christ Returns - He is not "stuck" on the earth - but can come and go as He needs.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Jesus is mobile: once He returns ― He can freely traverse Heaven and Earth.​

Nowhere in the Bible does it dictate that once Jesus returns that He is bound to the Earth. Indeed there is a verse where the Bible suggests Jesus’ mobility after His return. The principle of Jesus’ freedom of mobility between Heaven (the spiritual plane) and Earth is buttressed by two separate parts in the Bible where Christ has demonstrated He is able to transcend dimensions and boundaries in the spiritual plane and a third which points to mobility in the future:.

1. First is in death. When Jesus was on the cross He told the thief on His right that they would be in Paradise that day. Jesus had previously given us the only glimpse we have into the afterlife with Paradise in Luke 16:19-31 about in the story (not a parable) of the beggar Lazarus. However, in 1st Peter 3, Jesus is not bound to only Paradise, but goes to visit spirits imprisoned from the time of Noah. Their imprisonment suggests they are not in Abraham’s bosom or enjoy any rest in death. These spirits may very well be in the abyss between Paradise and Hades as Jesus relates the afterlife in the Bible.

2. Secondly, Jesus makes three appearances to the Apostles as revealed in John. Additionally, Jesus appears and instantaneously disappears to others. He makes His final appearance to many on top of the Mount of Olives. All these separate “returns” happen after His Resurrection. Here Jesus demonstrates His ability to traverse Heaven and Earth at will so as to establish witnesses which proves His Resurrection.

3. In the prophecy of Revelation 14:4, we find the 144,000 go wherever Jesus goes. This certainly suggests Jesus is mobile. With His mobility in the grave between His death on the Cross and His Resurrection, and the several times He made an appearance on Earth after His Resurrection; arguably Jesus can be highly mobile, traveling between dimensions of Heaven and Earth as need be.

When looking at the activities Jesus performs, they differ significantly as to location, action and purpose. Furthermore, the actions described take time. In the case of the final battle of the one ‘seven’ and Jesus’ revealing to the Remnant, according to the Man in Linen from Daniel 12:11 & 12, there are two additional time periods between the last of the one ‘seven’ and the Millennium.

1. As will be shown in the next section: upon His return, Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives. This correlates to the second earthquake of the sixth Seal. Later on the Day of the Lord, Jesus gathers those who are still alive and are left ― the Elect (the last of the Church) from the clouds (with the majority of the Elect who have been just resurrected from Paradise). These events are associated with the Day of the Lord because of the signature Sun/moon/star event. This half of the Day of the Lord is pointed at the Elect, which, during the Church Age, is synonymous with the Church. However, those selected by God can include Old Testament Saints who believed in the Lord.

2. Also on the Day of the Lord, other images in Old Testament prophecy show the Lord (Jesus) trampling out His Wrath upon the Land (Israel). This is the other half of the Day of the Lord pointed at unbelieving Israel. There are battles on this Day as well, one centered around Jerusalem and another south of the Holy City in the Valley of Decision. In these battles, Jesus takes on the forces of the King of the North. In addition, an army is pictured with Jesus. In Ezekiel 9, the Lord is pictured in the Temple and sends six soldiers out to kill men, women, and children without pity or compassion. The reason for this cleansing is to rid Israel of idolatry and prepare it as an anvil upon which to smash the nations.

3. At the end of the one ‘seven’ a different battle is fought in Armageddon, which as a name, places this battlefield in the hill country of Ephraim. In Revelation 19, Jesus is pictured again with His Army about to go forth from the Heavenly realm. This battle is the final one where Jesus wipes out the assembled nations of North, South, and East and the two main antagonists, the anti-Christ and the False Prophet are captured alive. While the action is similar to the second half of the Day of the Lord, this battle in another location and the purpose has changed as well. This time, God directs His Wrath at the Nations. So Israel has already been cleansed and stands ready as a platform upon which to smash the nations.

4. Some seventy-five days later (after the 30 and 45 day periods as laid out by the Man in Linen in Daniel) Jesus appears to the assembled Remnant of Israel as the Kingly Messiah. At that time, He is revealed to them as the Servant Messiah they had previously pierced (and rejected) in the person of Jesus. This then begins the earthly reign of Jesus and thus a new time in man’s existence comes to be: the Millennium. During that time, Jesus will be a present reality upon the Earth. The resulting new paradigm removes faith as a requirement for Salvation because now God can be proved by direct, observable evidence. Prophecy will no longer be necessary when the Lord is present; with Jesus’ anointing as King, Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled in its entirety.

These four distinct appearances according to their function which show Jesus acting in different capacities do not include His interaction to lead the Remnant during the second half of the one ‘seven.’ Isaiah documents that the Lord will go before those from Judea and Jerusalem who flee, guide them, and act as a rear guard protecting them, and that they will rely upon the Lord, even though they do not know His true identity until He is unveiled at the beginning of the Millennium, being blind until then (Isa 10:20, 42:16, 52:12).

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

on this earth and not back in heaven.

​The 'rapture to heaven' theory is bunk, a Satanic deception,

This has been debunked so many times it's not even worthy to mention.

But when some rabbi tells you that what is written in the Bible is a Satanic deception, ask yourself: Who is it that is deceived?

 

[keras]

This has been debunked so many times it's not even worthy to mention.

But when some rabbi tells you that what is written in the Bible is a Satanic deception, ask yourself: Who is it that is deceived?

Right then, post the Bible verse that says God will take His people to live in heaven.
I know you can't do it, the whole rapture construct is made up from scriptures that can only be made to infer it.
But those who have chosen to believe the lie, are locked into it and become unpleasant as we see, when challenged.
All will be revealed soon and those who were wrong may experience some disadvantage.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Right then, post the Bible verse that says God will take His people to live in heaven.

I did. Rev 7:9-17; 19:1; 19:6.

 

[n2thelight]

Once Christ Returns - He is not "stuck" on the earth - but can come and go as He needs.

Seeing as that Heaven will be here on earth,where else will He go?

 

[keras]

I did. Rev 7:9-17; 19:1; 19:6.

Rev 7:9-17 is all on earth. Proved by Rev 14:1 The 144,000 come out of the vast multitude as stated in Isaiah 66:19
Rev 19:1 is the souls of the martyred saints who asked for their vindication in the Fifth Seal and now praise God for His vengeance on their persecutors.
Rev 19:6 are the same group. Note they are NOT the 'bride of Christ', Rev 19:7-8, it seems the Marriage Supper will take place in the 30 days subsequent to the Return and Armageddon.

Marcus, I ask you and all who hold to the rapture idea, to seriously reconsider your belief. Who was it that taught it to you, were they trusted and genuine Christians? Hal Lindsay or Grant Jefferies? I have evidence of their falsifications and many others who have promoted the rapture lie.
I know the majority of Christians have some kind of rapture belief, but more numbers doesn't prove the truth. We all know how people are like sheep, following a leader, esp one who preaches 'nice' things.

Straight out truth: there is no scripture that says God will take His people to heaven.
Why not believe what the prophets actually tell us will happen? I look forward with great anticipation to the time of peace and prosperity, as the Lord blesses His people in the Holy Land. It will be like heaven! Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 8:14-19

 

[inchrist]

I did. Rev 7:9-17; 19:1; 19:6.

Rev 7:9 is NOT evidence of a literal resurrection and rapture . hebrews 4:16 nullifies your OPINIONATION onto scripture.

Rev 19 states great multitiudes there are as we know it a great multitudes of creatures in heaven....this is not evidence this is referring to a great multitide of humans.

Absolutly sloppy

 

[inchrist]

Seeing as that Heaven will be here on earth,where else will He go?

Would appear Marcus has never heard of the Lords pray

 

[inchrist]

This has been debunked so many times it's not even worthy to mention.

But when some rabbi tells you that what is written in the Bible is a Satanic deception, ask yourself: Who is it that is deceived?

That would be yourself and countless amounts of prewraths and pretribs.

For heaven sakes you cant even get Daniels 9:26&27 correct let alone understand Christ is the actual renewed covenant

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Seeing as that Heaven will be here on earth,where else will He go?

To Heaven.

Rev 7:9 ...standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God...

That is in Heaven.

Here is another picture of the Harvest.
Notice what happens next.

Harvest.
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Wrath
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, " Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

This is part of the first Trumpet.
Between this and the following are five more Trumpets of God's Wrath which are expressed as desolations upon the earth.

15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.

So you think we're going to live on the earth during those desolations?

• The Rapture happens after the midpoint abomination -
• The Rapture happens after the shortened Great Tribulation.

It is to the "barn" of Heaven as per Mt 13.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Seeing as that Heaven will be here on earth,where else will He go?

Where will Jesus go after He tramples out His Wrath on the Day of the Lord?

Isa 63:1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength?
"It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
3 "I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
4 "For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
5 "I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
And My wrath upheld Me.
6 "I trod down the peoples in My anger
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

He does not stay there, but returns to His Abode.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

For heaven sakes you cant even get Daniels 9:26&27 correct let alone understand Christ is the actual renewed covenant

Only a fool would say that Christ's New Covenant expired in just seven years.

 

[keras]

Where will Jesus go after He tramples out His Wrath on the Day of the Lord?

Isa 63:1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel,
Marching in the greatness of His strength?
"It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
3 "I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
4 "For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
5 "I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
And My wrath upheld Me.
6 "I trod down the peoples in My anger
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

He does not stay there, but returns to His Abode.

This is correct, it is another description of the Sixth Seal event.
As Psalm 11:4-6 says: The Lord is in His heavenly Temple, He will rain fiery coals upon the wicked........
But is nothing that even hints He will rapture His people at that time.

 

[n2thelight]

To Heaven.

Rev 7:9 ...standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God...

That is in Heaven.

Here is another picture of the Harvest.
Notice what happens next.

Harvest.
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Wrath
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, " Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

This is part of the first Trumpet.
Between this and the following are five more Trumpets of God's Wrath which are expressed as desolations upon the earth.

15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.

So you think we're going to live on the earth during those desolations?

• The Rapture happens after the midpoint abomination -
• The Rapture happens after the shortened Great Tribulation.

It is to the "barn" of Heaven as per Mt 13.

The people of Rev 7:9 are those who have died throughout time,even up to the great trib and yes that is Heaven,which Christ has not left yet

Rev 14 is Christ coming to earth the 2nd and only coming,no rapture in between .

Im not understanding you saying the rapture happens after the trib as that is the 2nd coming,please show where He comes before

And yes we shall be here on earth during His wrath.

Were not the Israelites still in Egypt?Were they harmed in any kind of way?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The people of Rev 7:9 are those who have died throughout time,even up to the great trib and yes that is Heaven,which Christ has not left yet

That is your conclusion, and not quite supported by the statement of one of the 24 Elders to John, who says, NOT that they have been there a long time, as you have concluded, BUT that they come OUT OF the Great Tribulation.

Many people think that when we die, we go right to Heaven.

That goes against what Paul wrote about the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ, which was also something Jesus taught to those around Him.

The Dead in Christ RISE when they are resurrected - and that is ON the Day of the Lord.

John 11:21 Martha then said to Jesus, " Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." 23 Jesus *said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, " I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" 27 She *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

And Paul said:

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The Dead in Christ do not rise until Jesus comes again.

This is why I look at Heaven differently then Roy Retrobyter. The "first" Heaven? Not the sky, but Paradise: the place where the Dead in Christ "rest" until they are resurrected ON the Day of the Lord.