Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

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CoreIssue

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What would you like to see documented by scripture?

That amillennialism will is biblical.

That does not mean negative proof claims and demands.


Versus that deliberately state what you believe or show it must be true.

An example is rapture. The word is not used in the Bible. But the Greek word that means snatched away is.

Versus must be in context. As with tereo ek. Only one place in the Bible says it occurs on the whole earth. So referencing events where it only occurs in a specific limited area is not a proof against revelation 3:10.
 

Enoch111

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Post your pre trib verses, then make your case.
Unless you understand the reason for the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation, you will not understand the reason for a Pre-tribulation Rapture.

And unless you understand and accept the fact the the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy is yet to be fulfilled, you will not see how all of this is related to the Pre-trib Rapture, and the seven trumpet judgments.

So let's see first if you know what the Tribulation is all about, and then we can go from there.
 
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friend of

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@Dave L

I have a question. When you say:

It happens on the last day after the resurrection of believers.

Then how can your view align with scripture Revelation 20:6 which states that those of the first resurrection will reign for 1000 years? 1000 years is not Eternity last time I checked. So there must be something else that happens after this "Millenial Kingdom"
 

tzcho2

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All Israel = Jews and Gentiles who accept Christ.
What Jews accepting Christ?? didn't you say Jews and Israel aren't real that the Church is Israel and the Christians the real Jews?
 

Lady Crosstalk

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One of the problems that we are seeing here is that there are a lot of Christians who are more-or-less quite ignorant of the OT (and there are a lot of Jews who are quite ignorant of their own Scriptures--the Tanakh--our Old Testament). ALL of the Bible must be accounted for in any scheme of systematic theology. It perfectly harmonizes when properly understood--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (it's primary author). As an example, an ancient teaching of Judaism is that there would be TWO messiahs--Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David. One was to be the "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah 53 (the rabbis during our Christian era "re-interpreted" Isaiah 53 to read it as Israel being the "Suffering Servant" which produces an absurdity). They simply could not fathom a Messiah who came twice--but it is all there in Scripture for us to ponder. If you study the OT prophets, you will see that there are a number of prophecies which have not yet been fulfilled--almost all of them having to do with the time of the End. It is unthinkable that they would not be. Humans lie--God does not. If He says something is going to happen, then it will. All prophecies which have been fulfilled have been fulfilled literally. Let's stop with the spiritualization that is necessary to sidestep the implications of various prophecies. Christians should definitely be wary of adding to or taking away from the Book of Revelation just because it says something they don't like.

In the time of the End, (also known as the Day of the Lord) it is God who sends judgment on the heathen nations for their egregious sin and abominations (they are storing up the "wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb"). Please tell me: Why wouldn't Christians be exempt from God's judgment? The sin of Christians has already been judged at the Cross and they are covered with Christ's righteousness--we are "not appointed to God's wrath". Yes, Christians have ALWAYS been subject to persecutions inspired by Satan. Jesus warned us that would be the case. But what Satan means for evil, God means for good. Persecution has been the most severe form of "refining fire" and the Church has almost always grown during times of persecution. It has kept us from becoming flabby and Laodicean and will exist right till the moment the Church is taken out of this world. It has been estimated that there have been 70,000,000 Christian martyrs in the two millennia of the Church. There are approximately 100,000 Christian martyrs per year--mostly in Muslim countries and there were many millions killed in communist countries in the past. But, frankly, that is a "drop in the bucket" compared to the kind of numbers mentioned in the Book of Revelation when the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb is poured out on those who belong to the world and especially those who take the Mark of the Beast. The "time of Jacob's trouble" will be a reality during the lead-up to the Millennial Kingdom. It will be notable for the enormous number of mass casualties.

I am not a "Dispensationalist." Their schemes tend to be quite rigid and they try to fit everything into specified periods of time that match their fascination with numbers. Having said that, I think that God predicts specific numbers of days, weeks, months and years that impact mankind. God exists without regard to time for Himself. Time means nothing to One who is eternal; it was obviously created for the sake of mankind--particularly mortal man (see Genesis 6:3). Our sun, the moon and the stars were created as celestial "time pieces" to mark time for us (see Genesis 1:14-15) God certainly didn't need them to illuminate the earth as Scripture tells us that He will eventually do away with them and illuminate the enormous New Jerusalem (a 1,400 mile cube) with His light alone.

Prophecy is always tied to the times of men--even the time of the End. There is an ordered sequence to the events of the Book of Revelation. Our clue is that John says, "And then," over and over when describing those events. There is evidence that time will continue even into the Eternal State, as the Tree of Life is said to bear a new fruit crop "each month". But time will cease to hold us in its grip any longer--we will truly be free of time restraints.
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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Yea that’s the one everyone is anticipating. Their rightful place on the throne. Maybe wear the royal diadem. This is the same thing the Pharisees couldn’t wait to embrace.

There's nothing prideful about it. The most humble servants will have the greatest role in governing the Kingdom--Jesus already told us that when He was here. God knows the spiritual state of every heart--just as Jesus knew the spiritual state of the children of the Devil (and He included many of the Pharisees in that group). It is enough for me to be with Jesus throughout all eternity--I'm not looking for any heavenly crowns or ruling authority. I'm pretty ordinary--can't imagine that there aren't a lot more Christians who are much more worthy of governorships than me. We already know that Christian martyrs will be given special roles as priests, ministering to God day and night. I feel sad that you have taken it upon yourself to denigrate God's system of righteous rule through His saints.
 
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Willie T

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Are we in the business of one-upping other Christians now?
Being a Christian means you can't have a pretty inappropriate expectation pointed out to you? I have mentioned, several times, the sad state of affairs when "Christians" are looking forward to riding with Jesus on a horse to slaughter unbelievers with a sword. (Not at all what that passage was about, by the way.)
 

Lady Crosstalk

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Being a Christian means you can't have a pretty inappropriate expectation pointed out to you? I have mentioned, several times, the sad state of affairs when "Christians" are looking forward to riding with Jesus on a horse to slaughter unbelievers with a sword. (Not at all what that passage was about, by the way.)

I actually don't believe that the Church will be part of that horrifying but necessary time. I believe that the Armies of Heaven (Jesus is the "Captain of the Host" of heaven) will accompany Him to the war against the forces of Antichrist, the False Prophet, those who take the Mark of the Beast and ultimately Satan himself. Even the martyrs in heaven are told to wait and rest a little longer until their numbers are completed, when they ask how long it will be before they are avenged for what has been done to them. There is no indication that they will be given a direct role in exercising the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb on an unsuspecting and evil world. (Noah's only part in the Flood judgment was to follow God's instructions exactly.) "If even the martyrs are not included why would we think that we would be? I don't think that I personally would want to be there, but it is whatever God wants, not what I want.
 
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Waiting on him

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Being a Christian means you can't have a pretty inappropriate expectation pointed out to you? I have mentioned, several times, the sad state of affairs when "Christians" are looking forward to riding with Jesus on a horse to slaughter unbelievers with a sword. (Not at all what that passage was about, by the way.)
Sometimes I feel like a grape
 
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Willie T

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I actually don't believe that the Church will be part of that horrifying but necessary time. I believe that the Armies of Heaven (Jesus is the "Captain of the Host" of heaven) will accompany Him to the war against the forces of Antichrist, the False Prophet, those who take the Mark of the Beast and ultimately Satan himself. Even the martyrs in heaven are told to wait and rest a little longer until their numbers are completed, when they ask how long it will be before they are avenged for what has been done to them. There is no indication that they will be given a direct role in exercising the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb on an unsuspecting and evil world. (Noah's only part in the Flood judgment was to follow God's instructions exactly.) "If even the martyrs are not included why would we think that we would be? I don't think that I personally would want to be there, but it is whatever God wants, not what I want.
You are quite rare, then. Otherwise, this song would not be so popular:
 
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Waiting on him

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You are quite rare, then. Otherwise, this song would not be so popular:

Isaiah 63:3-6 KJV
[3] I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. [4] For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. [5] And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. [6] And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Tecarta Bible
 
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friend of

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Yea that’s the one everyone is anticipating. Their rightful place on the throne. Maybe wear the royal diadem. This is the same thing the Pharisees couldn’t wait to embrace

That doesn't really address my question. Even so, that's what the verse says will happen, not me. I'm content just being a serf in Christ's Kingdom and I know I am entitled to nothing more.
 
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