Reason for The Crusades explained

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Matthias

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Outstanding analysis.

I look forward to the "Yea but" rebuttal. LOL

Did Jesus harm anyone when he drove animals out of the Temple?

AI Overview response -

“Biblical accounts do not state that Jesus physically injured anyone during the cleansing of the Temple. While he made a whip of cords to drive out the sheep and cattle and overturned tables, scholarly and theological consensus indicates this was a disruptive, prophetic demonstration rather than a violent assault on people.

The narrative can be explained from a few different angles:

• The Whip (John 2:15) : The Gospel of John mentions Jesus making a whip of cords. Many theologians interpret this as a tool used strictly to herd and scatter livestock, rather than as a weapon used to strike the merchants.

• The Merchants: Because the Temple guards were present, it is widely believed that physically striking people would have resulted in an immediate arrest. Instead, Jesus targeted the commercial operations by overturning tables and pouring out coins.

• Historical Context: Thus act is largely views by historians as a highly symbolic, prophetic protest against the exploitation and price-gouging of worshippers by the money changers, rather than a malicious or harmful attack.”

There is no support in the text for counseling people to physically harm, let alone kill, their enemies.

The action of Jesus in the Temple doesn’t contradict his teaching concerning how his followers are to treat their enemies.

@Armour of God @NayborBear

Jesus wasn’t “armed, ready to kill.”
 
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Matthias

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The pattern in the world is to hate your enemy, which leads to killing your enemy. That’s not the pattern which Jesus and the apostles taught his followers to live and teach others. What’s needed in order to follow them is a transformed mind.

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear
 

Matthias

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The cycle is broken by living the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

Your counsel is for followers of Jesus to perpetuate the cycle of violence.

My counsel is for followers of Jesus to break the cycle of violence.

P.S.

”Humanity has long suffered under the perpetuation of violence and revenge. Jesus desires for his followers to take action that breaks this cycle of violence, and create opportunities for those who were once our enemy to be transformed into our neighbor.”

(Alex Ferren, “Jesus on Breaking the Cycle of Violence - Matthew 5:38-42”)


Will you hear him out?
 
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Matthias

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We're counseling violence …

I acknowledge that you are indeed counseling violence. That’s an indisputable fact.

Did the apostles counsel followers of Jesus to kill their enemies?

AI Overview response -

“No. The apostles never counseled followers of Jesus to kill their enemies. Instead, New Testament teachings emphasize non-violence, forgiveness, and responding to hostility with love and kindness.

The foundational teachings from Jesus and his apostles strictly forbade retaliation and physical violence:

• Love for Enemies: Jesus instructed his followers to ‘love your enemies, do good to those who hate you’ (Luke 6:27-28)

• Prohibition of Revenge: The Apostle Paul directed Christians to ‘never pay back evil for evil to anyone’ and ‘never take your own revenge’ (Romans 12-17-19).

No Counter-Violence: The Apostle Peter explicitly commanded believers not to return ‘evil for evil or insult for insult’ (1 Peter 3:9).

Historically and theologically, early Christian leaders were known for their pacifism and refusal to harm others, even when facing severe persecution and execution themselves.”

@Armour of God @NayborBear

I strongly advise my readers to see, hear, understand, believe, and obey apostolic counsel.
 

Matthias

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“So much of our justification for killing and war flows out of our allegiance to a nation, instead of the Kingdom of God. We are willing to hold one rule for our nation state and one for ourselves. But in Christ there can be no such inconsistency. The first Christians spoke out clearly against this as well - …

For me to make these statements today would be seen as overly political, radical, subversive and naive. And yet these were the leading theologians, bishops and leaders of the early church. So why should we dismiss them so easily? They are simply expounding on the radical teaching of Jesus to love our enemies - a posture that is incompatible with killing them.”

(Craig Greenfield, “THE EARLIEST CHRISTIANS KNEW HOW TO RESPOND TO A VIOLENT WORLD - BUT WE‘VE LOST OUR WAY”)


@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

What Greenfield wrote in 2019 has been acted in this thread.
 

NayborBear

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Outstanding analysis.

I look forward to the "Yea but" rebuttal. LOL
Sure as the 'Ol Bear Poops In The Woods Wrangler!
And, Sure As The Pope's Catholic!
But? I got A "News Flash" For Matthais!
The 'Ol Bear?
He Poops?..........On COMPANY Time! :Laughingoutloud::jest:ppptttzzz
 

NayborBear

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There is no indication in scripture that he harmed anyone.
OIC!
You're one of those "Inerrancy People" Eh?
If it AIN'T in the Bible, or in all those books you keep "toutin'" about how "Awfully Evil and Barbaric" Defenders and Contenders of, and FOR the faith are?
It simply DIDN'T happen or occur!
RIGHT?
Think Again.GIF
 

Matthias

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OIC!
You're one of those "Inerrancy People" Eh?
If it AIN'T in the Bible, or in all those books you keep "toutin'" about how "Awfully Evil and Barbaric" Defenders and Contenders of, and FOR the faith are?
It simply DIDN'T happen or occur!
RIGHT?
View attachment 85143

You created and offered a comical fantasy for me to consider. I did.
 

NayborBear

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View attachment 85154

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

I take it as a given that you believe Jesus led the Crusades. If you don’t, please say so.

A 1st century timeframe question: How many holy wars, if any, do you believe Jesus and the apostles led?
Matthias? I really "tire" of going through this round and round with you! Always coming back to this SAME OLD PLACE!............AGAIN? AND AGAIN!
Jesus and the apostles were "ESTABLISHING and spreading" the GOOD NEWS! So? During this time? They allowed themselves in enduring the persecutions afflicted upon them! In establishing "CREDIBILITY!"
Not to mention the FACT that Rome would CERTAINLY have killed them off HAD they even "follyed a HINT" that these guys were were even TRYING to form a "Military" force! To which Jesus and the apostles didn't! And the government as well as Jews didn't "see" them AS a threat! To which was stated: "Let them "do their thing!" "Time will tell!" "There's been many others doing things similar!" "And? After awhile? The people lost interest and they dwindled to nought!"

So? (yet) AGAIN! I'll say this to you. It wasn't too awfully long afterwards (coupla 75-100 Years er so) that Christianity did get established to the point that they WERE seen as a threat that needed "wiping out!"
So? Yes!
I don't believe Jesus "led the Crusades!"
But His Father DID! On behalf of His SON'S SAKE? YES! HE DID!
Psalms 110:
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL.
 

Wrangler

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Not to mention the FACT that Rome would CERTAINLY have killed them off HAD they even "follyed a HINT" that these guys were were even TRYING to form a "Military" force! To which Jesus and the apostles didn't! And the government as well as Jews didn't "see" them AS a threat!
The perversion of the Crusades debate is the Crusaders were NOT a threat to their own country but do what was necessary to defend their own country. @Matthias is equating a patriot with a traitor, a. Christian patriot at that!
 

Matthias

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Matthias? I really "tire" of going through this round and round with you! Always coming back to this SAME OLD PLACE!............AGAIN? AND AGAIN!

I led you here but no one forced you to come.

Jesus and the apostles were "ESTABLISHING and spreading" the GOOD NEWS! So? During this time? They allowed themselves in enduring the persecutions afflicted upon them! In establishing "CREDIBILITY!"

The apostles were engaged in carrying out the Great Commission. They weren’t armed, contrary to what @Wrangler would have us believe.

Not to mention the FACT that Rome would CERTAINLY have killed them off HAD they even "follyed a HINT" that these guys were were even TRYING to form a "Military" force! To which Jesus and the apostles didn't!

Jesus, though, was deemed an enemy of the state; a political threat to Rome.

And the government as well as Jews didn't "see" them AS a threat!

That’s not historically accurate.

To which was stated: "Let them "do their thing!" "Time will tell!" "There's been many others doing things similar!" "And? After awhile? The people lost interest and they dwindled to nought!"

You’re mixing Roman history and the advice of Gamaliel.

So? (yet) AGAIN! I'll say this to you. It wasn't too awfully long afterwards (coupla 75-100 Years er so) that Christianity did get established to the point that they WERE seen as a threat that needed "wiping out!"
So? Yes!

This is where reading Ante Nicene history comes into play. You’ve taken us into the early 2nd century. The Ante Nicene Christians weren’t armed. They spoke against killing their enemies. Quotations from them illustrating the truth of this have been provided many times in the thread.

I don't believe Jesus "led the Crusades!"

Thank you. I’m happy to have this point of agreement between us.

But His Father DID! On behalf of His SON'S SAKE? YES! HE DID!
Psalms 110:
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL.

I mentioned previously in our conversation that this is possible.
 

Matthias

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The perversion of the Crusades debate is the Crusaders were NOT a threat to their own country but do what was necessary to defend their own country.

As has been pointed out many times, the knights who went on the crusades had a history of warring against one another.

@Matthias is equating a patriot with a traitor, a. Christian patriot at that!

Traitors to the Kingdom of God; not traitors to their respective countries.
 

Matthias

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TRYING to form a "Military" force! To which Jesus and the apostles didn't!

That’s right.

”We do not use the weapons of the world.” - Jesus, via Paul

“Imitate me as I imitate Messiah.” - Paul

That is apostolic counsel. That is why it is my counsel.

We‘re counseling violence” is the counsel of the hidden identity church.