Reasons Jews Reject Jesus

[Johann]

Bs"d

You posted this link: Isaiah 53: About the People of Israel or Messiah of Israel? - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

There are some problems with what is written there. It starts with: "Without a doubt, Isaiah 53 is one of the most significant chapters in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah. It is also one of the most troubling chapters for the rabbis, because it prophesies very clearly that the Messiah will be rejected by his own people, will suffer, and will die for the sins of humanity."

So it is stated as a fact that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. But when I asked above this question: "Can you give me just one single proof from the Hebrew Bible that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?" I didn't get an answer.

What this page does is saying that the rabbis said that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah: "Up until 1,000 years ago, all the wise men of Israel – the sages – understood that Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah. The claim of present day rabbis that the chapter speaks about the people of Israel and not about the Messiah is relatively new."

Well, it is not new. See here how old that claim is, and that it goes back at least 2000 years: Is 53 Isr b4 Rashi

There is also the problem that the Christian Bible translations are so twisted that it looks just like it speaks about the Christian messiah.

But there is no proof whatsoever that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah, and the proofs that it speaks about Israel are overwhelming.

Long before Rashi in the year 1000 the Jewish understanding of Isaiah 53 was that is speaks about the nation Israel. In the Midrash Rabba on Numbers it is clearly written that the suffering servant is Israel.

In the Talmud, finished around the year 500, in tractate Brachot 5A, it is written at least three times that the suffering servant is Israel.

The targum Jonathan ben Uzziel from the first century says in his comment on Isaiah 53 multiple times that the servant is Israel.

And there is of course the Christian father of the church, Origen, born in the year 185, who says that in a debate with wise Jews, they told him that the servant in Isaiah 53 is the nation Israel.

I am genuinely surprised that you would quote Rashi--when I can show you ancient rabbinical writings that it is the opposite to what Rashi is saying.

 

[Wrangler]

I converted to orthodox Judaism.

Interesting. How long ago and what did you convert from?

 

[Johann]

Long before Rashi in the year 1000 the Jewish understanding of Isaiah 53 was that is speaks about the nation Israel. In the Midrash Rabba on Numbers it is clearly written that the suffering servant is Israel.

In the Talmud, finished around the year 500, in tractate Brachot 5A, it is written at least three times that the suffering servant is Israel.

The targum Jonathan ben Uzziel from the first century says in his comment on Isaiah 53 multiple times that the servant is Israel.

And there is of course the Christian father of the church, Origen, born in the year 185, who says that in a debate with wise Jews, they told him that the servant in Isaiah 53 is the nation Israel.

I am genuinely surprised that you would quote Rashi--when I can show you ancient rabbinical writings that it is the opposite to what Rashi is saying.

THE JEWISH SAGES THOUGHT ISAIAH 53 WAS ABOUT THE MESSIAH
It’s important to understand we’re not just talking about a Christian interpretation here – the Jewish Sages of ancient times also always interpreted Isaiah 53 to be about the Messiah. In fact, the well-known term “Messiah ben Yosef” is actually from this very text.

In the ancient Jewish translation of Yonatan ben Uzziel (Targum Jonathan) from the first century opened the section with the words “The Anointed Servant” that is to say Ben Uzziel connected the chapter to the Messiah, the Anointed One.

Rabbi Yitzhak Abravanel who lived centuries ago admitted that “Yonatan ben Uzziel’s interpretation that it was about the coming Messiah was also the opinion of the Sages (of blessed memory) as can be seen in much of their commentary.”

The Book of the Zohar recognizes the principle of substitution that the suffering of the Messiah would come to take the suffering that others deserved for their sins. On the verse “Surely He has borne our griefs”, the Book of the Zohar says, “There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel: All of these come and rest upon Him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for the transgression of the law.”

Midrash Konen in discussing Isaiah 53 puts the following words in the mouth of Elijah the prophet: “Thus says the Messiah: Endure the sufferings and the sentence your Master who makes you suffer because of the sin of Yisroel. Thus it is written, “He was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities”, until the time the end comes.”

Tractate Sanhedrin in the Babylonian Talmud (98b), writes about the name of the Messiah
“His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted”.
In Midrash Tanhuma it says, “Rabbi Nachman says, it speaks of no one but the Messiah, the Son of David of whom it is said, here a man called “the plant”, and Jonathan translated it to mean the Messiah and it is rightly said, “man of sorrows, acquainted with grief”.

Midrash Shumel says this about Isaiah 53: “The suffering was divided into three parts: One for the generation of the Patriarchs, one for the generation of Shmad, and one for the King Messiah”.

The prayers for Yom Kippur, the ones we all know also relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah. The prayer added for Yom Kippur by Rabbi Eliezer around the time of the seventh century: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”

 

[Johann]

Bs"d

The NT disagrees with you:

"14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."
James 2

Other way around--to believe [eis] Messiah-and obey His Imperatives.

 

[Wrangler]

Can you give me just one single proof from the Hebrew Bible that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

What proof will you accept?

 

[Johann]

Bs"d

I converted to orthodox Judaism.


Maybe he is, but we don't know whether he is the messiah or not, until he fulfills the messianic prophecies.

We have no other criteria to figure out if he is the messiah or not. Or do we just have to take somebodies word for it?

Problem here is you have Messiah ben David and messiah ben Yoseph--which one came riding on a donkey?

 

[Jim B]

Bs"d

There are two main reasons why the Jews don't accept JC as the messiah: He didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, and his claim that he was God leads people into worshiping a human being, and that is idolatry.

For the finer details look here: Notestament

=> Some Jews <= I am a Jew who as accepted the Jews named Jesus as the Messiah. There are many others: 175,000 to 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. and 350,000 worldwide.

 

[Jim B]

Bs"d

Can you give me just one single proof from the Hebrew Bible that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?

This is how I see Isaiah 53: Isaiah 53

These verses (and actually the whole psalm) refer to the Messiah, Jesus Christ...

Surely he has borne our infirmities
and carried our diseases,
yet we accounted him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the punishment that made us whole,
and by his bruises we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have all turned to our own way,
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

 

[Eliyahu613]

What does this mean?

Bs"d

The above is an abbreviation of the Aramaic expression "ba siata desmaya", and that means: "With the help of heaven".

I don't go by what Rashi and Rambam is saying.

Bs"d

That's not the point. The point is that you brought a page which claimed that the concept of Israel as the servant is only a thousand years old, and that has been shown wrong. So in the future you shouldn't refer to that page anymore.

I don't need to give you proof-One for Israel is spot on.

So you have no proof than: "He fits so nicely".

Well, when you read Isaiah 53 in a good translation, then he suddenly doesn't fit so nicely anymore.

Maybe? Regarding fulfilling messianic prophecy; does Jesus fulfill any messianic prophecies?

All the authentic messianic prophecies are not fulfilled by JC.

 

[Eliyahu613]

What proof will you accept?

Bs"d

Anything as long as it is from the Tanach, so therefore not: "He fits so nicely with the Christian theology", and not: "The rabbis say so",

 

[Wrangler]

All the authentic messianic prophecies are not fulfilled by JC.

By implication, Jesus fulfills unauthentic messianic prophecies. This begs the questions:

1. Which unauthentic messianic prophecies did Jesus fulfill?
2. How do you differentiate between the authentic and unauthentic messianic prophecies?

 

[Wrangler]

Bs"d

Anything as long as it is from the Tanach, so therefore not: "He fits so nicely with the Christian theology", and not: "The rabbis say so",

Is Isaiah from the Tanach? What books from the Bible are you not accepting proof from?

 

[Eliyahu613]

Is Isaiah from the Tanach? What books from the Bible are you not accepting proof from?

Bs"d

Isaiah is from the Tanach. The Tanach is the Hebrew Bible, or what Christians call "the Old Testament".

I don't accept proof from the NT.

 

[Eliyahu613]

By implication, Jesus fulfills unauthentic messianic prophecies. This begs the questions:

1. Which unauthentic messianic prophecies did Jesus fulfill?

Bs"d

Hundreds. those "unauthentic messianic prophecies" are texts from the Tanach which have no bearing on the messiah, and are ripped out of context by Christians, and then labeled as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".

Examples are Isaiah 7 and 53.

1. How do you differentiate between the authentic and unauthentic messianic prophecies?

In the authentic messianic prophecies it is clear that they speak about the messiah. They speak about a king, or a ruler, about a descendant of David, or a descendant of Isai, the father of David.

In the unauthentic messianic prophecies these things are totally missing.

 

[Eliyahu613]

=> Some Jews <= I am a Jew who as accepted the Jews named Jesus as the Messiah. There are many others: 175,000 to 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. and 350,000 worldwide.

Bs"d

Read the Tanach and you'll see that in Biblical times already there were many Jews following the Ba'al and other idols.

That of course does not give any credibility to those idols.

 

[Wrangler]

Bs"d

Hundreds. those "unauthentic messianic prophecies" are texts from the Tanach which have no bearing on the messiah, and are ripped out of context by Christians, and then labeled as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".

Examples are Isaiah 7 and 53.

In the authentic messianic prophecies it is clear that they speak about the messiah. They speak about a king, or a ruler, about a descendant of David, or a descendant of Isai, the father of David.

In the unauthentic messianic prophecies these things are totally missing.

I'm glad I asked what your standard of proof is for I find it Circular. We Christians believe the Jews to be blind to the messianic prophecies in the Tanach. These texts DO bear on the Messiah, just not in the limited way you are allowing, such as Isaiah 7 and 53.

Consider Deutoronomy 18:15-18. Who will have God's words put in their mount? God's servant. Yes, from Israel. But also yes, a particular person from Israel. Therefore, I find your insistence that all references to servant to applyin corporately rather than individually lacking. Especially those verses that invoke masculine, singular pronouns.

Make a blessed day!

 

[Eliyahu613]

I'm glad I asked what your standard of proof is for I find it Circular. We Christians believe the Jews to be blind to the messianic prophecies in the Tanach. These texts DO bear on the Messiah, just not in the limited way you are allowing, such as Isaiah 7 and 53.

Consider Deutoronomy 18:15-18. Who will have God's words put in their mount? God's servant. Yes, from Israel. But also yes, a particular person from Israel. Therefore, I find your insistence that all references to servant to applyin corporately rather than individually lacking. Especially those verses that invoke masculine, singular pronouns.

Bs"d

If masculine plural pronouns are used, do you then agree that it cannot be a messianic prophecy?

Make a blessed day!

Thanks, same to you.

 

[Wrangler]

If masculine plural pronouns are used, do you then agree that it cannot be a messianic prophecy?

Not sure. Never thought of it. I've only seen masculine singular pronouns related to messianic prophecy. But these you do not recognize, right?

 

[Johann]

So you have no proof than: "He fits so nicely".

Well, when you read Isaiah 53 in a good translation, then he suddenly doesn't fit so nicely anymore.

Not my problem you left Christianity for Orthodox Judaism.

What do the early rabbis say?
Some of the first written interpretations or targums (ancient paraphrases on biblical texts) see this passage as referring to an individual servant, the Messiah, who would suffer. Messianic Jewish talmudist, Rachmiel Frydland, recounts those early views:3

“Our ancient commentators with one accord noted that the context clearly speaks of God’s Anointed One, the Messiah. The Aramaic translation of this chapter, ascribed to Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel who lived early in the second century c.e., begins with the simple and worthy words:

‘Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad locum).'”

“We find the same interpretation in the Babylonian Talmud:

What is his [the Messiah’s] name? The Rabbis said: His name is “the leper scholar,” as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.” (Sanhedrin 98b)

“Similarly, in an explanation of Ruth 2:14 in the Midrash Rabbah it states:

He is speaking of the King Messiah: “Come hither” draw near to the throne “and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,” this refers to the chastisements, as it is said, “But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities.”

“The Zohar, in its interpretation of Isaiah 53, points to the Messiah as well:

There is in the Garden of Eden a palace named the Palace of the Sons of Sickness. This palace the Messiah enters, and He summons every pain and every chastisement of Israel. All of these come and rest upon Him. And had He not thus lightened them upon Himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for the trangression of the law; as it is written, “Surely our sicknesses he has carried.” (Zohar II, 212a)

The early sages expected a personal Messiah to fulfill the Isaiah prophecy. No alternative interpretation was applied to this passage until the Middle Ages. And then, a completely different view was presented. This view was popularized by Jewish commentator Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Itzchaki), who lived one thousand years after Jesus.

You are going to have to do better.
You are not dealing with a ignoramus-no offense.

 

[Johann]

As you go through the proposed list of people this passage describes, ask yourself: which one was totally blameless throughout his life? Which one died for the sins of others? Which one lives today? What do I think? Am I willing to dismiss Jesus as the one whom the prophet foretold? Then ask yourself again, why is this passage omitted from the regular synagogue readings?