amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
It aint love to support anyones sin . Love would correct . Try and remember that the next time you see rainbows in the church .
It aint me hating , its those who support sin that hate .
Reasons Jews Reject Jesus
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It aint me hating , its those who support sin that hate .
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Self delusion! 1 Corinthians 13:4–8a (ESV) Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth."
Where is the patience and kindness in your perpetual "correction" of other Christians? Your "love" is just masked intolerance.
LOVING OTHERS IS NOT SUPPORTING SIN!!! 1 Corinthian 13:4-5, "Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable; it keeps no record of wrongs". Let me know when your chronic criticism even begins to approach this definition.
Eliyahu613
Active Member
Bs"d
There are two main reasons why the Jews don't accept JC as the messiah: He didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, and his claim that he was God leads people into worshiping a human being, and that is idolatry.
For the finer details look here: Notestament
There are two main reasons why the Jews don't accept JC as the messiah: He didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, and his claim that he was God leads people into worshiping a human being, and that is idolatry.
For the finer details look here: Notestament
Johann
Well-Known Member
By rabbi Yitschak Goldstein and Eliyahu Silver-and Tovia Singer-question is, do you believe as they do?
Eliyahu613
Active Member
Bs"d
It is not about what you believe, it is about what you do. And this is what we have to do:
https://tinyurl.com/Ecc12-13
Johann
Well-Known Member
Not a word re Yeshua HaMasiach and His death and resurrection?
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the Zero'a Hashem [Yeshayah 52:10] revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a Shoresh (Root, Shoresh Yishai, Moshiach, Yeshayah 11:10, Sanhedrin93b) out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire [Chaggai 2:7] him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and chadal ishim (rejected by men); a man of sorrows, and acquainted with suffering; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb; see Shemot 12:3) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [ Dan_9:26 ; Lev_17:10 ] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see Isa_53:12 ] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) -nega (plague cf Psa_91:10 ) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Psa_11:7 and Job_22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, "him," not "them". Cf Gen_9:26-27 ; Deu_33:2 ; Isa_44:15 ; also compare 1Ch_21:17 ]).
Isa 53:9 And he made his kever (grave) with the resha'im, and with the oisher (rich man; see Mt 27:57-60) bemotayv (in his deaths, intensive plural should be translated singular, death); because he had done no chamas (violence), neither was any mirmah (deceit) in his mouth. T.N. We stray as sheep; we return in Moshiach as children (zera); the Techiyas HaMoshiach (Resurrection of Moshiach) predicted in v. 10 [Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah Scroll says Moshiach "will see the light [of life];" see also the Targum HaShivim]
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.
Isa 53:11 He [Hashem] shall see of the travail of his [Moshiach's] nefesh, and shall be satisfied; by knowledge of him [Moshiach] shall Tzadik Avdi ["My Righteous Servant," Moshiach, Zecharyah 3:8, Yirmeyah 23:5; Zecharyah 6:11-12, Ezra 3:8 Yehoshua, Yeshua shmo] justify many (Ro 5:1); for he [Moshiach] shall bear their avon (iniquities).
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his nefesh unto mavet (death); and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he nasah (Lv 16:22, carried) (like the Yom Kippur scapegoat) the sin of many, and made intercession [did the work of a mafgi'a, intercessor] for the transgressors [see Lk 23:34 OJBC].
Does this refer to Yisrael-or Yeshua?
--and thanks for the link, I have bookmarked it.
Welcome to the boards Eli. I did not see your initial posts. What is your "other faith?"
I agree that worshipping a human being is idolatry but deny he made the claim you say. One point of logic. Isn't it true that the Messiah is the Messiah even before he fulfills any messianic prophecies?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Eliyahu613
Active Member
Bs"d
Can you give me just one single proof from the Hebrew Bible that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
This is how I see Isaiah 53: Isaiah 53
Eliyahu613
Active Member
Bs"d
The NT disagrees with you:
"14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."
James 2
Eliyahu613
Active Member
Bs"d
I converted to orthodox Judaism.
Maybe he is, but we don't know whether he is the messiah or not, until he fulfills the messianic prophecies.
We have no other criteria to figure out if he is the messiah or not. Or do we just have to take somebodies word for it?
Johann
Well-Known Member
https://nojesus4jews.weebly.com/--then you and her have a lot in common, yes?
As far as I can tell, "Christians"- are not to convert Jews, you have converted to Orthodox Judaism-so why are you here? -scouting?
As Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik wisely advised, interreligious activity should be guided by the prophet Micah (4:5): “Let all the people walk, each one in the name of his God, and we shall walk in the name of our Lord, our God, forever and ever.”14 Rabbi Soloveitchik already understood in 1964 that behind any interreligious dialogue initiated by the Church after the Shoah, there may still be its counterproductive evangelizing mission to the Jews. This “mission” was explicitly recognized on August 6, 2000, by Pope John Paul II: “In inter-religious dialogue as well, the mission ad gentes ‘today as always retains its full force and necessity.’… Inter-religious dialogue, therefore, as part of her evangelizing mission, is just one of the actions of the Church in her mission ad gentes.” He also stated: “Indeed, God ‘desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth’“ (1 Tim. 2:4) (§22).15
Thus, the Church did not change its policy toward the “salvation” of the Jews. Its mission to convert the Jews is seen by many as a call for a “spiritual” final solution for the Jewish people. This mission is not limited to the Church; every good Christian has a mission to convert the Jews in His land, Israel, and everywhere else so that they will “come to the knowledge of the truth” and fulfill what is still considered a prophecy. For many, the Second Coming of Jesus is dependent on the conversion of the Jews.16
According to the Church and the other churches, the Jews were condemned to an eternal exile until the day of the Last Judgment and the conversion of all non-Christians, including the Jews.17 However, Christians did not succeed to convert all of humanity to Christianity; in today’s world, 1.6 billion Muslims, 1.42 billion Chinese, and 1.35 billion Indians, among others, have not converted. Radical Muslims are conducting war against the Christians; many Christians have abandoned their religion and converted to Islam. The remnant of the Jews did not convert, and in addition, God brought them back to His land. For many, this is a real theological problem that cannot be overlooked.
Christians Should End Their Theological Struggle with the Jewish People
The question is whether steps can be taken today, some 77 years after the Shoah, to end this theological struggle against the Jews, Israel, and Judaism. - Christians Should End Their Theological Struggle with the Jewish People
jcpa.org
And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither pay heed to the voice of haOt Harishon, that they will believe the voice of haOt haAcharon.
I'm not here to "prove" or "evangelize" you.
An Isaiah 53 sermon, from the perspective of a Jewish listener - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry
“Isaiah 53 has been called ‘the torture chamber of the Rabbis and ‘the guilty conscious of the Jews.’ The Jews run from this chapter like from the black death.” “Do you know that the Jews all over the world know about Jesus so that they can be sure to reject Him? They have to know […]
www.oneforisrael.org
Isaiah 53: About the People of Israel or Messiah of Israel? - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry
Without a doubt, Isaiah 53 is one of the most significant chapters in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah. It is also one of the most troubling chapters for the rabbis, because it prophesies very clearly that the Messiah will be rejected by his own people, will suffer, and will die for the...
www.oneforisrael.org
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Eliyahu613
Active Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Eliyahu613
Active Member
Bs"d
I like a good conversation.
Bs"d
What it says there is:
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
14 Rabbi Soloveitchik already understood in 1964 that behind any interreligious dialogue initiated by the Church after the Shoah, there may still be its counterproductive evangelizing mission to the Jews. This “mission” was explicitly recognized on August 6, 2000, by Pope John Paul II: “In inter-religious dialogue as well, the mission ad gentes ‘today as always retains its full force and necessity.’… Inter-religious dialogue, therefore, as part of her evangelizing mission, is just one of the actions of the Church in her mission ad gentes.” He also stated: “Indeed, God ‘desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth’“ (1 Tim. 2:4) (§22).15
Thus, the Church did not change its policy toward the “salvation” of the Jews. Its mission to convert the Jews is seen by many as a call for a “spiritual” final solution for the Jewish people. This mission is not limited to the Church; every good Christian has a mission to convert the Jews in His land, Israel, and everywhere else so that they will “come to the knowledge of the truth” and fulfill what is still considered a prophecy. For many, the Second Coming of Jesus is dependent on the conversion of the Jews.16
According to the Church and the other churches, the Jews were condemned to an eternal exile until the day of the Last Judgment and the conversion of all non-Christians, including the Jews.17 However, Christians did not succeed to convert all of humanity to Christianity; in today’s world, 1.6 billion Muslims, 1.42 billion Chinese, and 1.35 billion Indians, among others, have not converted. Radical Muslims are conducting war against the Christians; many Christians have abandoned their religion and converted to Islam. The remnant of the Jews did not convert, and in addition, God brought them back to His land. For many, this is a real theological problem that cannot be overlooked.
Christians Should End Their Theological Struggle with the Jewish People
The question is whether steps can be taken today, some 77 years after the Shoah, to end this theological struggle against the Jews, Israel, and Judaism. - Christians Should End Their Theological Struggle with the Jewish People
And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither pay heed to the voice of haOt Harishon, that they will believe the voice of haOt haAcharon.
I'm not here to "prove" or "evangelize" you.
An Isaiah 53 sermon, from the perspective of a Jewish listener - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry
“Isaiah 53 has been called ‘the torture chamber of the Rabbis and ‘the guilty conscious of the Jews.’ The Jews run from this chapter like from the black death.” “Do you know that the Jews all over the world know about Jesus so that they can be sure to reject Him? They have to know […]
Isaiah 53: About the People of Israel or Messiah of Israel? - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry
Without a doubt, Isaiah 53 is one of the most significant chapters in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah. It is also one of the most troubling chapters for the rabbis, because it prophesies very clearly that the Messiah will be rejected by his own people, will suffer, and will die for the...
Johann
Well-Known Member
כי כל העמים ילכו אישׁ בשׁם אלהיו ואנחנו נלך בשׁם יהוה אלהינו לעולם ועד
I am aware of this-shows that even a rabbi can make mistakes re Elohim
For Kol HaAmmim will walk every one b'shem Elohav, and we will walk b'shem Hashem Eloheinu l'olam va'ed.
You would feel comfortable with "Hashem" yes?
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Eliyahu613
Active Member
Bs"d
You posted this link: Isaiah 53: About the People of Israel or Messiah of Israel? - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry
There are some problems with what is written there. It starts with: "Without a doubt, Isaiah 53 is one of the most significant chapters in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah. It is also one of the most troubling chapters for the rabbis, because it prophesies very clearly that the Messiah will be rejected by his own people, will suffer, and will die for the sins of humanity."
So it is stated as a fact that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. But when I asked above this question: "Can you give me just one single proof from the Hebrew Bible that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?" I didn't get an answer.
What this page does is saying that the rabbis said that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah: "Up until 1,000 years ago, all the wise men of Israel – the sages – understood that Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah. The claim of present day rabbis that the chapter speaks about the people of Israel and not about the Messiah is relatively new."
Well, it is not new. See here how old that claim is, and that it goes back at least 2000 years: Is 53 Isr b4 Rashi
There is also the problem that the Christian Bible translations are so twisted that it looks just like it speaks about the Christian messiah.
But there is no proof whatsoever that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah, and the proofs that it speaks about Israel are overwhelming.
You posted this link: Isaiah 53: About the People of Israel or Messiah of Israel? - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry
There are some problems with what is written there. It starts with: "Without a doubt, Isaiah 53 is one of the most significant chapters in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah. It is also one of the most troubling chapters for the rabbis, because it prophesies very clearly that the Messiah will be rejected by his own people, will suffer, and will die for the sins of humanity."
So it is stated as a fact that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. But when I asked above this question: "Can you give me just one single proof from the Hebrew Bible that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?" I didn't get an answer.
What this page does is saying that the rabbis said that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah: "Up until 1,000 years ago, all the wise men of Israel – the sages – understood that Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah. The claim of present day rabbis that the chapter speaks about the people of Israel and not about the Messiah is relatively new."
Well, it is not new. See here how old that claim is, and that it goes back at least 2000 years: Is 53 Isr b4 Rashi
There is also the problem that the Christian Bible translations are so twisted that it looks just like it speaks about the Christian messiah.
But there is no proof whatsoever that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah, and the proofs that it speaks about Israel are overwhelming.
Johann
Well-Known Member
I don't go by what Rashi and Rambam is saying.
I don't need to give you proof-One for Israel is spot on.
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant,.... Which springs out of the earth without notice; low in its beginning, slow in its growth, liable to be crushed with the foot, or destroyed with the frost, and no great probability of its coming to any perfection; or rather as a little "sucker", as the word (b) signifies, which grows out of the root of a tree, at some little distance from it, of which no notice or care is taken, nor anything hoped for from it; and the figure denotes the mean and unpromising appearance of Christ at his incarnation; which is the reason given why the Jews in general disbelieved, rejected, and despised him; for this phrase of "growing up" does not design his exaltation, or rising up from a low to a high estate; but his mean entrance into the world, like that of the springing up of a low and insignificant plant or shrub out of the earth: and the phrase "before him" is to be understood either of God the Father, by whom he was taken notice of, though not by men; and in whose sight he was precious, though despised by men; or his growing up, and the manner of it, or his mean appearance, were all before the Lord, and according to his will: or else it may be understood of Christ himself, and be rendered "before himself", who was meek and lowly, and was mean and low in his own eyes; or rather it may be interpreted of the unbelieving Jew, of any or everyone of them that did not believe the report concerning him: because before him, in the sight of everyone of them, he sprung up in the manner described; unless it can be thought that it would be better rendered "to his face" (c); or "to his appearance"; that is, as to his outward appearance, in the external view of him, so he grew up:
and as a root out of a dry ground; or rather, "as a branch from a root out of a dry ground"; agreeably to Isa_11:1, meaning not so much the land of Judea, where he was born; or the country of Galilee, where he was brought up; as the family of David, from whence he sprung, which was reduced to a very low condition when he was born of it; his supposed father being a carpenter, and his real mother a poor virgin in Nazareth, though both of the lineage and house of David; from this passage the ancient Jews (d) are said to conclude that the Messiah would be born without a father, or the seed of man:
he hath no form nor comeliness; like a poor plant or shrub just crept out of the ground, in a dry and barren soil, ready to wither away as soon as up; has no strength nor straightness, of body; without verdure, leaves, blossom, and fruit things which make plants comely and beautiful. This regards not the countenance of Christ, which probably was comely, as were his types Moses and David; since he is said to be "fairer than the children of men"; and since his human nature was the immediate produce of the Holy Ghost, and without sin: but his outward circumstances; there was no majesty in him, or signs of it; it did not look probable that he would be a tall cedar, or a prince in Israel, much less the Prince Messiah; he was born of mean parents; brought up in a contemptible part of the country; lived in a town out of which no good is said to come; dwelt in a mean cottage, and worked at a trade:
and when we shall see him: as he grows up, and comes into public life and service, declaring himself, or declared by others, to be the Messiah: here the prophet represents the Jews that would live in Christ's time, who would see his person, hear his doctrines, and be witnesses of his miracles, and yet say,
there is no beauty, that we should desire him; or "sightliness" (e) in him; nothing that looks grand and majestic, or like a king; they not beholding with an eye of faith his glory, as the glory of the only begotten of the Father; only viewing him in his outward circumstances, and so made their estimate of him; they expected the Messiah as a temporal prince, appearing in great pomp and state, to deliver them from the Roman yoke, and restore their nation to its former splendour and glory; and being disappointed herein was the true reason of their unbelief, before complained of, and why they did not desire him, who is the desire of all nations.
(b) כיונק ως παιδιον, Sept.; ως θηλαζον, Theodotion, vox a ינק, "lac sugere, proprie lactantem significat", Rivet. Sanctius, "surculus tener, veluti laetens", Forerius. (c) לפניהו "ad faciem suam, vel in facie, sua", Rivet.; "quoad conspectum, vel quoad faciem suam, seu faciem ejus", Sanctius. (d) R. Hadarson apud Galatia, de Arcan. Cathol. Ver. l. 8. c. 2. p. 549. (e) לא מראה "non aspectus", Munster: Vatablus, Pagninus, Montanus; "nulla spectabilis forma", Vitringa.
Maybe? Regarding fulfilling messianic prophecy; does Jesus fulfill any messianic prophecies?
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