Reasons Jews Reject Jesus
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Well, sort of. But a blind person can give any reason under the sun, not to believe. It doesn't matter what the reason is, they are not capable of seeing the truth until God lifts that veil. That is one of the reasons the Pharisees wanted Him dead, because He claimed to be equal to His Father. "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE." "BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM." They knew what He was saying and that certainly provoked them, which was His intention.
If you read Romans 11, you'll find out why they don't believe. They were blinded for our sake and remain blinded to this day - the majority anyways. Some have come to Christ. But the Lord has not forsaken them. He will lift the veils of a remnant Jewish population soon - 1/3.
His Father is his God. His Father and his God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Cannot agree here-
To the beloved Son and Heir of all creation,
“Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven…
And when he brought his supreme Son into the world, God said, ‘Let all of God’s angels worship him.’… But to the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice. You love justice and hate evil. Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.’ He also says to the Son, ‘In the beginning, Lord, YOU laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with YOUR HANDS. They will perish, but you remain forever. They will wear out like old clothing. YOU will fold them up like a cloak and discard them like old clothing. But YOU are always the same; YOU will live forever.’” Hebrews 1:1-3, 6, 8-12
Thereby identifying Christ as Jehovah God Almighty, the very unchangeable, eternal Creator and Sustainer of all creation!
“‘Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End… I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star.’… He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming soon!’ Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!” Revelation 22:12-16, 20
And yet the Hebrew Bible expressly testifies that Jehovah is the First and the Last who shall come to judge and reward every individual:
“Yes, the Sovereign LORD is coming in power. He will rule with a powerful arm. See, he brings his reward with him as he comes.” Isaiah 40:10 – Cf. 62:11; Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12; Jeremiah 11:20; 17:10; 29:23
“This is what the LORD says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD of Heaven’s Armies: ‘I am the First and the Last; there is no other God.” Isaiah 44:6
“Listen to me, O family of Jacob, Israel my chosen one! I alone am God, the First and the Last.” Isaiah 48:12
This explains why John saw the Son receiving the exact same worship that the Father receives from every created being in all of creation, and for the exact same duration:
“And then I heard EVERY CREATURE in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: ‘Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and TO THE LAMB forever and ever.’ And the four living beings said, ‘Amen!’ And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb.” Revelation 5:13-14
This proves that Jesus is no mere creature, but separate and superior to all creation since he is the eternal Son of God.
Therefore, the inspired Scriptures explicitly proclaim that Jesus is the eternal, unchangeable Creator and Sustainer of all creation, Jehovah God Almighty in the flesh, being the beloved Son who is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit in essence!
If you are interested-many more links I can give you-proving your assertion wrong. And what I have just posted might be jarring-that Messiah is YHVH-since He IS YHVH
Johann.
Last edited:
I‘ve carried this in my wallet for years.
”The one God. (a)theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5); see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3).”
(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)
Whenever someone asks me the question I like to ask (see post #885), this is my answer.
”The one God. (a)theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5); see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3).”
(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)
Whenever someone asks me the question I like to ask (see post #885), this is my answer.
Funny how some, like RLT63, use synonyms to assert distinctions in a display of willful ignorance.
Nice avatar!
Johann
Well-Known Member
@APAK
The great God and Savior whose glorious appearance all true believers eagerly await,
“while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ (TOU megalou Theou kai Soteros hemon ‘Iesou Christou), will be revealed. He gave his life to free us from every kind of sin, to cleanse us, and to make us his very own people, totally committed to doing good deeds.” Titus 2:13-14
As well as the God and Savior whose justice and fairness results in salvation being granted to all human beings, irrespective of ethnicity, gender, or status:
“This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior (TOU Theou hemon kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou).” 2 Peter 1:1
Two important points need to be noted regarding the above passages. First, the Greek of 2 Thessalonians 1:12, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8 and 2 Peter 1:1 all have the definite article before the word God, and therefore describe Jesus as THE God, and not simply a God.
Second, 2 Thessalonians 1:12, Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 are examples of what is commonly referred to as a Granville Sharp construction. Sharp was a Christian philanthropist and abolitionist who wrote a monograph in 1798 on how the Greek NT employs the definite article, especially as it relates to the Deity of Christ. He discovered six rules concerning the article, the first of which being that whenever one finds two singular personal nouns, which are not proper names, connected by the Greek conjunction kai (“and”), with the definite article appearing only before the first noun, then both nouns are referring to and describing the same individual. This is precisely what we find in the case of the aforementioned verses.
Christ is therefore being described as God, in fact as the great God, who is the Lord and Savior of all believers. And since there is only one Being who can be properly called the great God, namely Yahweh Almighty,
“For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, the mighty and awesome God, who shows no partiality and cannot be bribed.” Deuteronomy 10:17
“And now, our God, the great and mighty and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of unfailing love…” Nehemiah 9:32
“For you are great and perform wonderful deeds. You alone are God.” Psalm 86:10
“You show unfailing love to thousands, but you also bring the consequences of one generation’s sin upon the next. You are the great and powerful God, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.” Jeremiah 32:18
This means that, according to the inspired NT record, Jesus Christ is Yahweh God Almighty in the flesh (even though he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit)!
This explains why the NT authors could say without any reservation that Christ existed before any created thing came into being, and that he is the Agent whom the Father used to create and sustain the entire creation,
“For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son, who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins. Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation, for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together. Christ is also the head of the church, which is his body. He is the beginning, supreme over all who rise from the dead. So he is first in everything.” Colossians 1:13-18
And why Hebrews could take the following Psalm, which describes Yahweh God Almighty as the unchanging Creator and Sustainer of all things,
“Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with your hands. They will perish, but you remain forever; they will wear out like old clothing. You will change them like a garment and discard them. But you are always the same; you will live forever.” Psalm 102:25-27
And apply that to the Son!
“He also says to the Son, ‘In the beginning, Lord, YOU laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with YOUR HANDS. They will perish, but you remain forever. They will wear out like old clothing. You will fold them up like a cloak and discard them like old clothing. But you are always the same; you will live forever.’” Hebrews 1:10-12
LXX related word(s)
H113 adon
H136 adonai
H136 adonai yehovih
H410 el
H430 elohim
H433 eloah
H1167 baal
H1376 gevir
H3068 yehovah
H4756 mare
H4911 mashal
H6697 tsur
H7706 shaddai
H7980 shelat aph.
H7989 shallit
foundation of the earth,.... The person here addressed, as the Lord or Jehovah, and as the Maker of the heavens and the earth, is the same with the Son spoken to, and of, before; for the words are a continuation of the speech to him, though they are taken from another psalm, from Psa_102:25. The phrase, "thou, Lord" is taken from Psa_102:12 and is the same with, "O my God", Psa_102:24 and whereas it is there said, "of old", and here, in the beginning, the sense is the same; and agreeably to the Septuagint, and the apostle, Jarchi interprets it by מתחילה, "at", or "from the beginning";
and so the Targum paraphrases it, מן שרויז, "from the beginning", that the creatures were created, &c. that in the beginning of the creation, which is the apostle's meaning;
=and shows the eternity of Christ, the Lord, the Creator of the earth, who must exist before the foundation of the world; and confutes the notion of the eternity of the world: and the rounding of it shows that the earth is the lower part of the creation; and denotes the stability of it; and points out the wisdom of the Creator in laying such a foundation; and proves the deity of Christ, by whom that, and all things in it, were made:
answeringislamblog.wordpress.com
Why is it the a FEW other members and I can SEE this-and you don't?
I have so many information and links and will gladly share it-but you guys are not interested.
Shalom
Johann.
The great God and Savior whose glorious appearance all true believers eagerly await,
“while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ (TOU megalou Theou kai Soteros hemon ‘Iesou Christou), will be revealed. He gave his life to free us from every kind of sin, to cleanse us, and to make us his very own people, totally committed to doing good deeds.” Titus 2:13-14
As well as the God and Savior whose justice and fairness results in salvation being granted to all human beings, irrespective of ethnicity, gender, or status:
“This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior (TOU Theou hemon kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou).” 2 Peter 1:1
Two important points need to be noted regarding the above passages. First, the Greek of 2 Thessalonians 1:12, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8 and 2 Peter 1:1 all have the definite article before the word God, and therefore describe Jesus as THE God, and not simply a God.
Second, 2 Thessalonians 1:12, Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 are examples of what is commonly referred to as a Granville Sharp construction. Sharp was a Christian philanthropist and abolitionist who wrote a monograph in 1798 on how the Greek NT employs the definite article, especially as it relates to the Deity of Christ. He discovered six rules concerning the article, the first of which being that whenever one finds two singular personal nouns, which are not proper names, connected by the Greek conjunction kai (“and”), with the definite article appearing only before the first noun, then both nouns are referring to and describing the same individual. This is precisely what we find in the case of the aforementioned verses.
Christ is therefore being described as God, in fact as the great God, who is the Lord and Savior of all believers. And since there is only one Being who can be properly called the great God, namely Yahweh Almighty,
“For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, the mighty and awesome God, who shows no partiality and cannot be bribed.” Deuteronomy 10:17
“And now, our God, the great and mighty and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of unfailing love…” Nehemiah 9:32
“For you are great and perform wonderful deeds. You alone are God.” Psalm 86:10
“You show unfailing love to thousands, but you also bring the consequences of one generation’s sin upon the next. You are the great and powerful God, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.” Jeremiah 32:18
This means that, according to the inspired NT record, Jesus Christ is Yahweh God Almighty in the flesh (even though he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit)!
This explains why the NT authors could say without any reservation that Christ existed before any created thing came into being, and that he is the Agent whom the Father used to create and sustain the entire creation,
“For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son, who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins. Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation, for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together. Christ is also the head of the church, which is his body. He is the beginning, supreme over all who rise from the dead. So he is first in everything.” Colossians 1:13-18
And why Hebrews could take the following Psalm, which describes Yahweh God Almighty as the unchanging Creator and Sustainer of all things,
“Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with your hands. They will perish, but you remain forever; they will wear out like old clothing. You will change them like a garment and discard them. But you are always the same; you will live forever.” Psalm 102:25-27
And apply that to the Son!
“He also says to the Son, ‘In the beginning, Lord, YOU laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with YOUR HANDS. They will perish, but you remain forever. They will wear out like old clothing. You will fold them up like a cloak and discard them like old clothing. But you are always the same; you will live forever.’” Hebrews 1:10-12
LXX related word(s)
H113 adon
H136 adonai
H136 adonai yehovih
H410 el
H430 elohim
H433 eloah
H1167 baal
H1376 gevir
H3068 yehovah
H4756 mare
H4911 mashal
H6697 tsur
H7706 shaddai
H7980 shelat aph.
H7989 shallit
foundation of the earth,.... The person here addressed, as the Lord or Jehovah, and as the Maker of the heavens and the earth, is the same with the Son spoken to, and of, before; for the words are a continuation of the speech to him, though they are taken from another psalm, from Psa_102:25. The phrase, "thou, Lord" is taken from Psa_102:12 and is the same with, "O my God", Psa_102:24 and whereas it is there said, "of old", and here, in the beginning, the sense is the same; and agreeably to the Septuagint, and the apostle, Jarchi interprets it by מתחילה, "at", or "from the beginning";
and so the Targum paraphrases it, מן שרויז, "from the beginning", that the creatures were created, &c. that in the beginning of the creation, which is the apostle's meaning;
=and shows the eternity of Christ, the Lord, the Creator of the earth, who must exist before the foundation of the world; and confutes the notion of the eternity of the world: and the rounding of it shows that the earth is the lower part of the creation; and denotes the stability of it; and points out the wisdom of the Creator in laying such a foundation; and proves the deity of Christ, by whom that, and all things in it, were made:
Jesus Christ: The God Who is the All in All – A Response to Iglesia ni Cristo
On April 21, 2017, Dr. James White debated cult group Iglesia ni Cristo’s (InC) leading apologist named “Brother” Joe Ventilacion on the topic, “Who Is God? – Trinity Debate” Dr. White was ma…
answeringislamblog.wordpress.com
Why is it the a FEW other members and I can SEE this-and you don't?
I have so many information and links and will gladly share it-but you guys are not interested.
Shalom
Johann.
Last edited:
RLT63
Well-Known Member
I agree his father is God. ThanksFunny how some, like RLT63, use synonyms to assert distinctions in a display of willful ignorance.
Nice avatar!
I always laugh when people make such statements appealing to the righteous authority of the Jews. Pick one:
- The Jews were right --> Jesus is not equal to God making the meaning of Jesus claim sinful and rightfully crucified.
- The Jews were wrong --> Jesus was not claiming equality with God and Jesus was unjustly crucified.
No doubt you will appeal to duality, finding the confines of logic unsettling.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
@Matthias - it’s the daily double@APAK
The great God and Savior whose glorious appearance all true believers eagerly await,
“while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ (TOU megalou Theou kai Soteros hemon ‘Iesou Christou), will be revealed. He gave his life to free us from every kind of sin, to cleanse us, and to make us his very own people, totally committed to doing good deeds.” Titus 2:13-14
As well as the God and Savior whose justice and fairness results in salvation being granted to all human beings, irrespective of ethnicity, gender, or status:
“This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior (TOU Theou hemon kai Soteros ‘Iesou Christou).” 2 Peter 1:1
Two important points need to be noted regarding the above passages. First, the Greek of 2 Thessalonians 1:12, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8 and 2 Peter 1:1 all have the definite article before the word God, and therefore describe Jesus as THE God, and not simply a God.
Second, 2 Thessalonians 1:12, Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 are examples of what is commonly referred to as a Granville Sharp construction. Sharp was a Christian philanthropist and abolitionist who wrote a monograph in 1798 on how the Greek NT employs the definite article, especially as it relates to the Deity of Christ. He discovered six rules concerning the article, the first of which being that whenever one finds two singular personal nouns, which are not proper names, connected by the Greek conjunction kai (“and”), with the definite article appearing only before the first noun, then both nouns are referring to and describing the same individual. This is precisely what we find in the case of the aforementioned verses.
Christ is therefore being described as God, in fact as the great God, who is the Lord and Savior of all believers. And since there is only one Being who can be properly called the great God, namely Yahweh Almighty,
“For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, the mighty and awesome God, who shows no partiality and cannot be bribed.” Deuteronomy 10:17
“And now, our God, the great and mighty and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of unfailing love…” Nehemiah 9:32
“For you are great and perform wonderful deeds. You alone are God.” Psalm 86:10
“You show unfailing love to thousands, but you also bring the consequences of one generation’s sin upon the next. You are the great and powerful God, the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.” Jeremiah 32:18
This means that, according to the inspired NT record, Jesus Christ is Yahweh God Almighty in the flesh (even though he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit)!
This explains why the NT authors could say without any reservation that Christ existed before any created thing came into being, and that he is the Agent whom the Father used to create and sustain the entire creation,
“For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son, who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins. Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation, for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together. Christ is also the head of the church, which is his body. He is the beginning, supreme over all who rise from the dead. So he is first in everything.” Colossians 1:13-18
And why Hebrews could take the following Psalm, which describes Yahweh God Almighty as the unchanging Creator and Sustainer of all things,
“Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with your hands. They will perish, but you remain forever; they will wear out like old clothing. You will change them like a garment and discard them. But you are always the same; you will live forever.” Psalm 102:25-27
And apply that to the Son!
“He also says to the Son, ‘In the beginning, Lord, YOU laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with YOUR HANDS. They will perish, but you remain forever. They will wear out like old clothing. You will fold them up like a cloak and discard them like old clothing. But you are always the same; you will live forever.’” Hebrews 1:10-12
Jesus Christ: The God Who is the All in All – A Response to Iglesia ni Cristo
On April 21, 2017, Dr. James White debated cult group Iglesia ni Cristo’s (InC) leading apologist named “Brother” Joe Ventilacion on the topic, “Who Is God? – Trinity Debate” Dr. White was ma…
Why is it the a FEW other members and I can SEE this-and you don't?
I have so many information and links and will gladly share it-but you guys are not interested.
Shalom
Johann.
When I’ve presented this to Jewish enquirers the response has generally been good. When presented to Christians the response has been tepid, at best.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
I love your sense of humor!
I’ll bet it all, using trinitarian concessions to take home the prize, and return next week to face a new set of challengers.
Note, however, that the concessions of trinitarian scholarship is no guarantee that his (or anyone else’s) mind will be changed, and I’m fine with that. No one should believe anything that they aren’t persuaded is true.
Johann
Well-Known Member
That, in and of itself-should tell you why he is desperate to deny the Deity of Christ Jesus.
The ignore feature is a handy tool brother-some are here to learn, to appreciate what our Lord Christ Jesus has accomplished for us on the cross and His glorious resurrection- and still doing through the Holy Spirit.
I am still learning and excited-desiring to share with my brothers and sisters-but there are troublemakers, scoffers, frivolous and just want to pontificate.
Shalom
Johann.
I’ve recommended this book, though it is dated, to Jewish acquaintances. Few were willing to read it because it contains trinitarian commentary. That’s a shame.*
I’ve recommended it to trinitarian acquaintances. Few were willing to read it because it contains trinitarian commentary that makes concessions. That’s a shame.
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another (Proverbs 27:17) - when and where allowed to be practiced.
* On the whole, I think trinitarian commentary is outstanding. I read it - almost daily - and highly recommend it to everyone. I’ve found Catholic scholarship to be a little better than Protestant scholarship, but I read and recommend both to everyone.
I’ve recommended it to trinitarian acquaintances. Few were willing to read it because it contains trinitarian commentary that makes concessions. That’s a shame.
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another (Proverbs 27:17) - when and where allowed to be practiced.
The Concessions of Trinitarians
www.google.com
* On the whole, I think trinitarian commentary is outstanding. I read it - almost daily - and highly recommend it to everyone. I’ve found Catholic scholarship to be a little better than Protestant scholarship, but I read and recommend both to everyone.
Last edited:
Ah.... the ever-present "Ignore feature" -- Often mentioned, seldom (actually) used.
Similar threads
