Redemption ?

[EndTimeWine]

you say and others say "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" - I see here as elsewhere you wish to leave Jesus out as and when you see fit - was Mary then not a new creation - twinc

twinc- just push flush. People like this can not be reached with an atomic bomb. How Dare they say Our HOLY Lord would be born into sin. Mary was turned into the Holy of Holies as only where our Lord could dwell and be nourished. It is funny how the Ark of the Covenant was placed in the Holy of Holies in the OT and only an anointed Priest of God could enter there in. But this is not so for the New Covenant, according to some people.
We learn through Christ's teachings that we are the Temple of the Living God. 1Corinthians3:16 Do you not know that you are God's TEMPLE and that God's Spirit dwells in you.
Oh but not in Mary though, according to these half backed nit-wits... though the Holy Spirit came upon her and she literally carried God Incarnate , not only Spiritually but physically as well. They do not get Romans9:20 " But who are you , a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus(SCOTTA THUS) ?" Has the POTTER no right over the clay, to make out of the SAME LUMP on vessel for beauty (MARY) and one for menial use. (SCOTTA). Sorry Scott you can NOT be the mother of our Lord. God Bless you twinc and may you be abundantly blessed and given much in Wisdom!

 

[BreadOfLife]

classic example of one who is fatuous in the scriptures. either they do not know, nor understand the difference between being "FILLED" with the Spirit, and being "BORN" of the Spirit.

let me make it simple, really simple. born of the Spirit is permanent, being filled is temporary..
Job 33:4 “The spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life”.
the Spirit/Yeshua made all of us… that’s nothing new. And he, Jesus/Yeshua gave all of us life by his breath… this have nothing to do with being Spiritually alive...

Psalm 143:10 Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.
Teach me to do your will?. well we have a HISTORY of people keeping God will. was not the covenant God will. so they keep that, I have scripture that say different. may, may, may your good Spirit lead me on level ground. may is a condition, which is "IF" and that's if you obey.

Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts.
All people have abilities… and gifts from God.

Genesis 41:38 So Pharaoh asked them, “Can we find anyone like this man (Joseph), one in whom is the spirit of God?”
well Daniel hadn't came on the scene yet. but here he is.Daniel 5:12 "Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation.

Numbers 27:18 So the Lord said to Moses, “Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand on him.
1 Sam. 10:6-7 The Spirit of the Lord will come upon you (Saul) in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. Once these signs are fulfilled, do whatever your hand finds to do, for God is with you.”
2 Samuel 23:2 “The Spirit of the Lord spoke through me (David); his word was on my tongue."

These scriptures above have nothing to do with being Spiritually alive to God. John 4:14 "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life".
now which one of these had everlasting life at the time they was living?. not one because the Spirit was not yet given, scripture, John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Shall I go on - or have you had enough?

My God this is almost comical.

shall I go on...

Peace in Christ Jesus/Yeshua

And every verse I quoted showed that these people were not "Spiritually dead."
You cannot be spiritually-dead and be filled with the spirit of God at the same time. This is an oxymoron (sorry for the big word . . .).

Your post is therefore, an exercise in futility, by Scripturally-bankrupt friend.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I say, what a work of nothing. you said, "when you can show me ONE other person in all of Scripture who is described as "Kecharitomene" - you might have a point".

here's my point. Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD".
here "GRACE" it's the Hebrew word,
H2580 חֵן chen (chane) n-m.
1. graciousness.
2. (subjective) kindness, favor.
3. (objective) beauty.
KJV: favour, grace(-ious), pleasant, precious, (well-)favoured.
Root(s): H2603

Well Favored is Highly favoured" ... so you're still dead, not to know that.

in my next post I'll address the rest of your scripture.

And not even Noah was considered to be "Kecharitomene."

There were many people in Scripture that were favored or "highly" favored - yet NONE of them were Kecharitomene like Mary. She was completely and enduringly endowed with grace. That's what "Kecharitomene" means. It is a completed action with a permanent result. Do your homework . . .

"Spiritually-dead", my foot . . .

 

[EndTimeWine]

You cannot be spiritually-dead and be filled with the spirit of God at the same time. This is an oxymoron (sorry for the big word . . .).

Exactly! FULL OF GRACE. Full does not mean half way or partial but as stated: FULL. There was no room for anything other.

 

[BreadOfLife]

First of all, I didn't dodge Herod being upset... I fully discussed it. I put it in proper perspective.

Second, Romans 3 means what it says. You are trying to find a case study to support your viewpoints but you haven't. Case studies don't always fit all cases.

WRONG.

You still haven't proven that "ALL" Jerusalem could have been upset as Herod was because there was no reason for them to be upset yet. The edict to kill the male children was NOT yet in effect. This proves that Matt. 2:3 is simply using a generalization with its inclusive language.

As for Romans 3 - had you done your homework - it is ALSO using inclusive language because it is alluding to Psalm 14, where it speaks of a specific group of people - the FOOLS.

I've already shown that "ALL have sinned" cannot apply to everybody:
a. The unborn
b. Babies
c. Jesus.

Third... What are my notions about Mary? Tell me what they are.

That she sinned - otherwise, we wouldn't be having this debate . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I did not say that He sinned and fell short of the glory of God. (Wow, I said that without the use of bold letters.)

On the contrary, I said Jesus was born of a woman who was born after the fallen line of Adam and Eve - He was born into sin, but committed no sin. Thus, His sacrifice was without spot or blemish.

But the point is...that would not have included Mary, as there is only One begotten.

HOWEVER, it renders your interpretation of this verse null and void because Jesus, a human being did NOT sin.
Jesus is part of "ALL."

 

[ScottA]

you say and others say "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" - I see here as elsewhere you wish to leave Jesus out as and when you see fit - was Mary then not a new creation - twinc

God has already answered that, saying both, that "all have fallen short", and also that Jesus "did not sin." Because we are told that "there is on One begotten of God", that would make Jesus the One exception.

As for Mary, if Jesus was the Last, meaning the last of those who died under the old covenant...then Mary would be under the old covenant and included in "the dead in Christ" who saw Him "coming in the clouds" at death. The same goes for the apostles. Which does not necessarily mean they were not born again or walked in the power of the Holy Spirit - in fact, I am convinced that they were and did. Nonetheless, it is Jesus who was the Last, so those who were before (as in the case of Mary) were under the old covenant, and those who were after were under the new covenant. God knows...which Christ made clear in speaking with Peter, saying: “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

 

[EndTimeWine]

God has already answered that, saying both, that "all have fallen short", and also that Jesus "did not sin." Because we are told that "there is on One begotten of God", that would make Jesus the One exception.

As for Mary, if Jesus was the Last, meaning the last of those who died under the old covenant...then Mary would be under the old covenant and included in "the dead in Christ" who saw Him "coming in the clouds" at death. The same goes for the apostles. Which does not necessarily mean they were not born again and walked in the power of the Holy Spirit - in fact, I am convinced that they were and did. Nonetheless, it is Jesus who was the last, so those who were before (as in the case of Mary) were under the old covenant, and those who were after were under the new covenant. God knows...which Christ made clear in speaking with Peter, saying: “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

MARY: FIRST WORK OF CHRISTIANITY!!!!!!= Christ's first work! Hence, Holy Spirit , Power of the Most High who over shadowed her???? Have you popped a spring in your head?

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello,

When has the Old and the soon to be refreshed Kingdom of Priests and a holy nation covenant anything to do with God's Salvation covenant which has been in play since the beginning of time?

I also understand that God's Salvation covenant is embedded in the Old and the Soon to be refreshed Covenant of a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation as the nation of Israel cannot be a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation unto the Lord unless they also embrace God's Salvation covenant for all of mankind. However, Israel has been chosen to be God's special people but only those who embrace God's Salvation covenant with all of Mankind.

 

[EndTimeWine]

God has already answered that, saying both, that "all have fallen short", and also that Jesus "did not sin." Because we are told that "there is on One begotten of God", that would make Jesus the One exception.

As for Mary, if Jesus was the Last, meaning the last of those who died under the old covenant...then Mary would be under the old covenant and included in "the dead in Christ" who saw Him "coming in the clouds" at death. The same goes for the apostles. Which does not necessarily mean they were not born again or walked in the power of the Holy Spirit - in fact, I am convinced that they were and did. Nonetheless, it is Jesus who was the Last, so those who were before (as in the case of Mary) were under the old covenant, and those who were after were under the new covenant. God knows...which Christ made clear in speaking with Peter, saying: “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

NOOO SCOTTA. The John 21:22 you are misrepresenting was an answer to Peter concerning John as to how John shall die . And Christ replied"If it is My will that he remain until I come=( SECOND COMING), what is that to you? And it spread amongst the brethren that this apostle was not to die. And John says, "yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is My will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" As I said in previous post John is one of the witnesses.

 

[101G]

And not even Noah was considered to be "Kecharitomene."

There were many people in Scripture that were favored or "highly" favored - yet NONE of them were Kecharitomene like Mary. She was completely and enduringly endowed with grace. That's what "Kecharitomene" means. It is a completed action with a permanent result. Do your homework . . .

"Spiritually-dead", my foot . . .

yes, your feet and head are still dead........ . Noah was H2580 חֵן chen (chane) the same thing in Hebrew, .... LOL,

see, Mary was not the first to be "highly favored". so you again are rebuked. just like the Lord said, Read Rev 2:2........

 

[FHII]

WRONG.

You still haven't proven that "ALL" Jerusalem could have been upset as Herod was because there was no reason for them to be upset yet. The edict to kill the male children was NOT yet in effect. This proves that Matt. 2:3 is simply using a generalization with its inclusive language.

As for Romans 3 - had you done your homework - it is ALSO using inclusive language because it is alluding to Psalm 14, where it speaks of a specific group of people - the FOOLS.

I've already shown that "ALL have sinned" cannot apply to everybody:
a. The unborn
b. Babies
c. Jesus.

That she sinned - otherwise, we wouldn't be having this debate . . .

BOL
This is yet another case where you refuse to acknowledge what I wrote and I am not going to repeat it.

As for Mary sinning, well sure I believe she sinned. But the focus this time around is that I don't believe she was spiritually dead either until the day of Pentacost. I can prove that by the Bible but I am not going to give any of the Nonprotestants any favors today.

Frankly this is just another, "the Bible doesn't mean what it says" spin job. If someone wants to discus it or even debate it in a reasonable manner I will do so. But I am not going to bother with the whole Nonprotestant vs protestant debate.

 

[ScottA]

HOWEVER, it renders your interpretation of this verse null and void because Jesus, a human being did NOT sin.
Jesus is part of "ALL."

I did not exclude Jesus from "all", but only from those who sin. As I said, He was born into sin, but sinned not.

 

[FHII]

Just curious... Are you saying Mary was wisdom?

 

[101G]

And every verse I quoted showed that these people were not "Spiritually dead."
You cannot be spiritually-dead and be filled with the spirit of God at the same time. This is an oxymoron (sorry for the big word . . .).

TWO more dolt, meaning also a play on words, oxymorons? LOL. oh well, now a juxtaposition. "Spiritually dead" what do it mean? answer, The act of God whereby He makes us alive from spiritual death is called regeneration. was Mary regenerated? NO, because the Holy Spirit have not been GIVEN yet. yes one can be filled, like full of GRACE, but the Spirit do not DWELL in a dead house permanently, hence the THE REASON FOR regeneration.... LOL, how marionette can one, or in this case, two be...... (smile).

just remember filling, and dwelling, filling, and dwelling, filling, and dwelling, filling, and dwelling ..... hey that rhymes....

juxtaposition (sorry for the big word )..... lol. oh man this is too much fun.

Peace in Jesus/Yeshua the Christ, who fills the spiritually dead.

 

[EndTimeWine]

Just curious... Are you saying Mary was wisdom?

I am saying Mary was purposed for Wisdom and through Mary, Yeshua apportions wisdom to us.

 

[twinc]

TWO more dolt, meaning also a play on words, oxymorons? LOL. oh well, now a juxtaposition. "Spiritually dead" what do it mean? answer, The act of God whereby He makes us alive from spiritual death is called regeneration. was Mary regenerated? NO, because the Holy Spirit have not been GIVEN yet. yes one can be filled, like full of GRACE, but the Spirit do not DWELL in a dead house permanently, hence the THE REASON FOR regeneration.... LOL, how marionette can one, or in this case, two be...... (smile).

just remember filling, and dwelling, filling, and dwelling, filling, and dwelling, filling, and dwelling ..... hey that rhymes....

juxtaposition (sorry for the big word )..... lol. oh man this is too much fun.

Peace in Jesus/Yeshua the Christ, who fills the spiritually dead.

what would have made Mary ' highly favoured ' - or highly favoured enough to be the mother of Jesus the Lord/God - twinc

 

[101G]

what would have made Mary ' highly favoured ' - or highly favoured enough to be the mother of Jesus the Lord/God - twinc

because she was willing. listen highly favoured was in the GREETING. but the angel said, Luke 1:30 "And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God". that's why she was highly favoured. Luke 1:38 "And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her". Just like Noah he was willing to obey God. she was only chosen by God just like us to do something. listen this word is used two times in the bible, Ephesians 1:6 "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved".

now for that word "Highly Favioured.
G5487 χαριτόω charitoo (cha-riy-to'-ō) v.
1. to grace (i.e. indue with special honor).
2. to graciously favor (influentially).
[from G5485]
KJV: make accepted, be highly favoured

now the Hebrew, Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD".
H2580 חֵן chen (chane) n-m.
1. graciousness.
2. (subjective) kindness, favor.
3. (objective) beauty.
[from H2603]
KJV: favour, grace(-ious), pleasant, precious, (well-)favoured.

so again Mary is no more Special than any other woman. only in her selection of birthing the body of the Lord. THAT'S GOD'S CHOICE. no ours.... ;)

Peace in Christ Yeshua/Jesus

 

[101G]

Mary could not be spiritually dead when the LIVING WORD was with her. And, it was NOT a DEAD in spirit or flesh Mary who nursed and cared for the Lord.

let's get this right. Mary was just as dead as a doorknob. only flesh can produce flesh and Spirit spirit. get that right. Mary did not birth the Lord the Spirit, she birthed the BODY/flesh he came in. supportive scripture, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".

a child/flesh/body was born. a son is "GIVEN" not born. that flesh, that child is the son of God. let's be sure. Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". the thing is the "BODY" which was born, Child is born. the Son is "GIVEN". John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".

hope that helped.

Peace in Christ Yeshua/Jesus

 

[ScottA]

MARY: FIRST WORK OF CHRISTIANITY!!!!!!= Christ's first work! Hence, Holy Spirit , Power of the Most High who over shadowed her???? Have you popped a spring in your head?

No, but just looking at your exclaim...perhaps you should have that looked at.

Jesus is both the First and the Last. There is no other.

What was bestowed upon Mary was exactly that which came upon the prophets of old, which were not born again of the spirit of God, but were endowed with power from on high.