Regeneration before or after saving faith
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SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
John 1:13 easily explains why those in John 1:12 received Him. It could not be any clearer. Then John 3:3 is easy to see. Those born again can see the kingdom of God, those who aren’t born again can’t see it. We can do nothing to be born again. It is out of this new birth that causes ppl to exercise their God given faith and repentance and are saved. They are conflating regeneration with salvation. They happen simultaneously but they’re not the same thing.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
It is! It's plainly right there in the text. It boggles my mind why anyone would perpetually fight this. You'd think they would in great joy praise God for it and leave off all boasting of what they think they did to be rewarded salvation. They are fighting against God.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Well yes, everyone believing are adopted as sons. We do repent and believe. We can preach that God saves sinners in Christ. At a point in time each and every sinner given by the Father to the Son will be drawn savingly to repent and believe in Jesus as Lord.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
I try to believe only what is in scripture. What I believe does not matter so much as I am not that clever.We are to strive to open up scripture to come to truth. What scriptures are you considering?
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Think of the glorious difference of these two groups and the implications:
Those under unconditional election:
God saved a people for himself, sought them, found them, saved them unconditionally, and not because they chose him by their will, or that they did anything to condition salvation, based on nothing good in them, but only due to his own purpose, counsel and will. Note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Their awe in eternity knowing this will be incomprehensible.
Those under conditional election:
Then we have another group. They're in heaven, and know they're in heaven because they prepared their hearts to receive God, exercised their wills, chose him out of their love for God, decided for him, were saved by the will of their flesh, so, because of them doing this they're now in heaven. Hmmm. Seems quite awkward because there would always be this thing that they are there because of themselves.
Those under unconditional election:
God saved a people for himself, sought them, found them, saved them unconditionally, and not because they chose him by their will, or that they did anything to condition salvation, based on nothing good in them, but only due to his own purpose, counsel and will. Note 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. Their awe in eternity knowing this will be incomprehensible.
Those under conditional election:
Then we have another group. They're in heaven, and know they're in heaven because they prepared their hearts to receive God, exercised their wills, chose him out of their love for God, decided for him, were saved by the will of their flesh, so, because of them doing this they're now in heaven. Hmmm. Seems quite awkward because there would always be this thing that they are there because of themselves.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Oh, but you can, and He reserves the right to do exactly that.
"Yet to all who did receive him.."
What does receive mean? It means to take something. To recieve, as used here is the same word used for
"They took palm branches”...
To be given, presented with, or paid (something)
We know that the "receive" here is active because previously it says: 11 "He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him."
Obviously, the implication is that they could have received him but refused. Anyone reading this passage without any preconceived ideas about how God works would see it this way. To see it as receiving a punch from Rocky Balboa requires one to have a very warped view of how God works.
Now, if we back up even further, this is reinforced by why John came:
There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.
Why was he sent? So that all might believe. How do they believe? By recieving the light that was given to all. Simple, straightforward, no hidden fees or coercion.
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I've read it though multiple times. Sometimes words mean what they say, you know.
That doesn't even make sense. He reserves the right to do what? If everything is decreed, I can't so much as hit one key if God has not decreed it irresistibly from before time. So, there might as well be strings hooked onto me, as I am just a puppet.
Wrong question. Where does it say you aren't? Again, any person reading this with any reading comprehension at all it going to see a choice to receive or reject him. The only way to get around it is to have pre conceived idea that God works in some way that is contrary to the plain words of the text.
No one is arguing that we are saved by our own wills. Huge, predicable straw man.
There are two choices: God is a tyrant who forcibly and irresistibly, through mental and spiritual rape, makes some his prisoners, and some his enemies.
Or: God is a God of love who sacrificially gives his life so that whoever chooses to love him can be with him forever.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
No He does not, pal! He has no right to do with us as He chooses! It’s not we are the clay and He is the Potter! It’s not like we hate Him as we love Him, even when we were lost! You’re just posting scripture with proper exegesis and a consistent hermeneutic. You REALLY need to stop doing this, pal!
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
He owes everyone a chance to vote themselves into heaven. OWES! If he doesnt do this he is not fair!
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
And owing them a chance flies in the face of grace. Is the very antithesis of grace.
Anthony, I am asking you questions in an effort to try to understand what you believe to better understand and love you, just akin to how I would strive understand & love a Hindu or a Zoroastrian or a Catholic or Methodist etc.
If you would like to educate me more on what you believe, I would greatly appreciate that. My first area of confusion is how you attribute culpability in the absence of sovereignty.
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Um. You've already argued this yourself. It is all over this thread.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
@Renniks claims he is saved BECAUSE he prepared his heart, so God saved him, and that he decided, so God saved him, and that he did this by his will, so God saved him. And now? He's claiming no one has argued these things.
Um. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Grace means unmerited favor. They claim they merited grace because God saw they'd choose him. That is totally merit, and is not grace at all.
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