Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Renniks]

There is enough meat there for @Renniks to chew on. Sadly, I think he'll end up choking on it before he will gladly chew and swallow it and grow from it.

@Renniks we, @Anthony D'Arienzo , @Preacher4Truth and myself have given you ample scripture to investigate and grow from. You can either accept it or reject it. The ball is in your court. Our hands are clean.

Lol, I rejected your false doctrine years ago. Because of looking at what scripture actually says, as opposed to what some men say.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Maybe in your mind, but I never said we merit grace. Belief isn't a work that earns us anything. It's still by God's grace that we are saved.

You did say it, that's a fact. No, you didn't say "I merited grace" but your soteriology shows that you did merit grace. Grace is favor unmerited, unearned, you claim it is rewarded because you did something.

So here is your belief in a nutshell: You did _________ so God rewarded you for preparing your heart. Each of you was saved because you did something. The amazing thing here is that God claims it is not of you, that the flesh in salvation profits nothing, is of no help at all; John 6:60ff, yet you keep claiming the opposite, that yes the flesh can, by willing it. That is contrary to the Gospel message.

Furthermore faith isn't inherent. Supernatural faith in the Gospel sense comes from God, 2 Peter 1:1, and his word, Romans 10:17, and is the same power that raised Christ, Ephesians 1:19. Therefore it didn't come from you, yet, you keep claiming "Oh, yes it did!" contrary to Scripture.

Leighton preaches the same things, as does @Eternally Grateful and others on here: They did __________ and God saw they would do ______ and since they did _______ God saved them for that. In Leighton's case 1) He says because he humbled himself God saved him pulling James 4:6 completely out of context; 2) God saved him because he is choice meat (his analogy, not mine); 3) Salvation is a personal achievement.

 

[Renniks]

Not at all. As per usual you never address the scripture when it is shown to refute you.

I'm still reading Ezekiel 34, trying to figure out how anyone could read individual election into it.. just not seeing it.

" this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them."

So God removes the evil Kings and puts the apostles over his flock, here we have reward and punishment for the deeds of men....

 

[Renniks]

You did say it, that's a fact. No, you didn't say "I merited grace" but your soteriology shows that you did merit grace. Grace is favor unmerited, unearned, you claim it is rewarded because you did something.

So here is your belief in a nutshell: You did _________ so God rewarded you for preparing your heart. Each of you was saved because you did something. The amazing thing here is that God claims it is not of you, that the flesh in salvation profits nothing, is of no help at all; John 6:60ff, yet you keep claiming the opposite, that yes the flesh can, by willing it. That is contrary to the Gospel message.

Furthermore faith isn't inherent. Supernatural faith in the Gospel sense comes from God, 2 Peter 1:1, and his word, Romans 10:17, and is the same power that raised Christ, Ephesians 1:19. Therefore it didn't come from you, yet, you keep claiming "Oh, yes it did!" contrary to Scripture.

Leighton preaches the same things, as does @Eternally Grateful and others on here: They did __________ and God saw they would do ______ and since they did _______ God saved them for that. In Leighton's case 1) He says because he humbled himself God saved him pulling James 4:6 completely out of context; 2) God saved him because he is choice meat (his analogy, not mine); 3) Salvation is a personal achievement.

That's silly . None of the verses you quote say what you need them to. Humbling your self isn't an achievement. It's reliance on God. No one is saying our flesh responds to God, we are both flesh and spirit, we are created in God's image.
God saves based on belief. That's basic biblical theology.
Guess the eye doctor was fresh out of Calvinist lenses, cause I can't read irresistible grace into every verse.

 

[friend of]

I'm amazed this thread has survived this long :/

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That's silly . None of the verses you quote say what you need them to. Humbling your self isn't an achievement. It's reliance on God. No one is saying our flesh responds to God, we are both flesh and spirit, we are created in God's image.
God saves based on belief. That's basic biblical theology.
Guess the eye doctor was fresh out of Calvinist lenses, cause I can't read irresistible grace into every verse.

Your entire post is nonsense and you conflate my statements together, meld them together. When Jesus stated that your flesh is of no help at all, he's saying you, your person, not your capillaries, sinew, or skin.

He meant YOU.

You're saying the texts don't say what I want them to is either disingenuous on your part or you cannot receive the things of the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 2:14

Nothing in my post was about irresistible grace so that's non sequitur.

Oh, and for the record, your post above is nothing less than you claiming you did do it. Unbelievable.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your entire post is nonsense and you conflate my statements together, meld them together. When Jesus stated that your flesh is of no help at all, he's saying you, your person, not your capillaries, sinew, or skin.

He meant YOU.

You're saying the texts don't say what I want them to is either disingenuous on your part or you cannot receive the things of the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 2:14

Nothing in my post was about irresistible grace so that's non sequitur.

Oh, and for the record, your post above is nothing less than you claiming you did do it. Unbelievable.

Oh, it’s very believable. It’s all about him. He can give God the nod to save him. Then he can shake his head and say he’s done with believing. God is just along for his magic carpet ride. God’s not even a co-pilot, he’s in the third row of his SUV.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Oh, it’s very believable. It’s all about him. He can give God the nod to save him. Then he can shake his head and say he’s done with believing. God is just along for his magic carpet ride. God’s not even a co-pilot, he’s in the third row of his SUV.

This is a gross mocking of another person's beliefs. Not cool. Same with how other folks have been scorning Calvinists-- not cool (I could easily link a bunch of those posts).

I don't agree with a lot of people's beliefs. But we can disagree while being respectful loving disciples of Christ.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

This is a gross mocking of another person's beliefs. Not cool. Same with how other folks have been scorning Calvinists-- not cool (I could easily link a bunch of those posts).

I don't agree with a lot of people's beliefs. But we can disagree while being respectful loving disciples of Christ.

How "other folks" have been scorning Calvinists? Um, that includes you.

And no, it's not a gross mocking of someone's beliefs. First things first, true belief isn't subjective. The reason you stand against truth and defend those in error is because your entire gospel and sect is false. You want company, approval and an audience.

 

[Renniks]

Oh, it’s very believable. It’s all about him. He can give God the nod to save him. Then he can shake his head and say he’s done with believing. God is just along for his magic carpet ride. God’s not even a co-pilot, he’s in the third row of his SUV.

This is so absurd.... God doesn't force himself on anyone and he doesn't force anyone to remain in him. Whosever will means just that.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8:12)

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. (John 12:46)

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:21)

Turn away from the living God means what it says.

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

You seem to have a problem with the Word of God, not with me.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

This is so absurd.... God doesn't force himself on anyone and he doesn't force anyone to remain in him.

LOL!!! The old "force" argument. Where did @SovereignGrace ever use such a term or implication?

Whosever will means just that.

Verse? Context? Rightly handling the text, 2 Timothy 2:15? Correctly spelling "whosoever?" How about following that up with the "robot" argument? Or the " I came to God while lost out of my own love for him" argument?

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)

Context? Some have ears to hear, some do not. Who gives them those ears to hear, themselves? Who made them thirsty? Who made them willing? Isn't it travesty that God makes people willing, and causes them to do his will? What a shame, right?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

But faith is a gift of God. The real language is "believing ones" not anyone doing it by willing themselves to believe.

Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8:12)

That must be qualified. The disciples in John 6:66 must have lost their salvation, right? They followed him, why are they now lost?

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. (John 12:46)

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:21)

Turn away from the living God means what it says.

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

You seem to have a problem with the Word of God, not with me.

You did a search for "that whosoever" then pasted the texts here and ended it with an antithetical accusation. Pasting verses without any meaningful interaction means nothing. Scripture isn't a fortune cookie. It must be studied aright and interpreted correctly.

No lost person wills themselves to believe, and our wills have nothing to do with it in the first place. Scripture states this explicitly. You (and others) have a huge problem with the word of God because of this fact.

We have zero problems with the word of God, we happen to know what it means which is different than knowing what it says.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

That's silly. No one is saying our flesh responds to God, we are both flesh and spirit

Yep. And the lost are spiritually dead, unwilling, and incapable of coming to Christ.

When Christ said "the flesh is of no help at all" he meant your entire person. He didn't meant "but you can do it by your spirit willing it" as you're trying to apply while developing more errant theology on the fly in a reactionary tone. That is what is silly.

 

[Renniks]

Context? Some have ears to hear, some do not. Who gives them those ears to hear, themselves? Who made them thirsty? Who made them willing? Isn't it travesty that God makes people willing, and causes them to do his will? What a shame, right?

No one made them willing. God causes people to believe? Where is that?

But faith is a gift of God. The real language is "believing ones" not anyone doing it by willing themselves to believe.

No, grace is a gift from God. Calvinist: " God chastises people for not having faith, even though we also claim that God irresistibly causes them to have faith." But of course, your god is schizophrenic.
"He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
Matthew 17:20

I guess Jesus forgot that he didn't irresistibly cause them to have faith.
In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one;
Ephesians 6:16

Take up? I have to do something? I thought God was doing it all?

That must be qualified. The disciples in John 6:66 must have lost their salvation, right? They followed him, why are they now lost?

Because they ceased to follow when things got tough. Whether they were truly saved or not, we aren't told.

No lost person wills themselves to believe, and our wills have nothing to do with it in the first place. Scripture states this explicitly. You (and others) have a huge problem with the word of God because of this fact.

No where does it say no one wills to believe.
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.1 Thessalonians 2:13

Pretty straight forward.
1. Beleif
2. God's word will be at work in you.
You constantly try to reverse the order.

And BTW:
1 Timothy 4:10
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
And there goes limited atonement out the window, too.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Well, this discussion has long since gotten too full of bad behavior (from all view points). I do thank @Anthony D'Arienzo for the times he answered my questions, and especially thank @SovereignGrace for their thoughts & presence here.

And with that, I'm opting out.

May God continue to be with you, everyone here.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

No one made them willing

God makes people willing, so your statement is false all the while rejecting all scripture that declares we are not saved by our will. We'll start there.

God causes people to believe? Where is that?

I never said this.

Show me where I did. How is it you consistently charge scripture and people with things it and they never say???

But the fact is faith is his gift. I'll leave off the rest of your post due to its straw man laden content. You haven't dealt properly with these things here, and that's what you need to face. The rest is simply more drivel.

 

[Renniks]

Who made them thirsty? Who made them willing? Isn't it travesty that God makes people willing, and causes them to do his will? What a shame, right?

Making someone willing is causing them to do what ever it is you brainwashed them to do. If I did this to my wife to make her love me, it would not be love, but, to put it politely, forcing myself on her.

 

[Renniks]

But the fact is faith is his gift. I'll leave off the rest of your post due to its straw man laden content. You haven't dealt properly with these things here, and that's what you need to face. The rest is simply more drivel.

I see you like to dodge the simple truth of scripture. It's ok, I know those verses don't fit your man-made system.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

No one made them willing. God causes people to believe? Where is that fyi?

No, grace is a gift from God. Calvinist: " God chastises people for not having faith, even though we also claim that God irresistibly causes them to have faith." But of course, your god is schizophrenic.
"He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
Matthew 17:20

I guess Jesus forgot that he didn't irresistibly cause them to have faith.
In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one;
Ephesians 6:16

Take up? I have to do something? I thought God was doing it all?


Because they ceased to follow when things got tough. Whether they were truly saved or not, we aren't told.


No where does it say no one wills to believe.
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.1 Thessalonians 2:13

Pretty straight forward.
1. Beleif
2. God's word will be at work in you.
You constantly try to reverse the order.

And BTW:
1 Timothy 4:10
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
And there goes limited atonement out the window, too.

Making someone willing is causing them to do what ever it is you brainwashed them to do. If I did this to my wife to make her love me, it would not be love, but, to put it politely, forcing myself on her.

God makes His people willing,,,psalm110:3
You suggest this is brainwashing?
Your defective theology causes such unbiblical thought.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

No one made them willing. God causes people to believe? Where is that?

No, grace is a gift from God. Calvinist: " God chastises people for not having faith, even though we also claim that God irresistibly causes them to have faith." But of course, your god is schizophrenic.
"He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”
Matthew 17:20

I guess Jesus forgot that he didn't irresistibly cause them to have faith.
In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one;
Ephesians 6:16

Take up? I have to do something? I thought God was doing it all?


Because they ceased to follow when things got tough. Whether they were truly saved or not, we aren't told.


No where does it say no one wills to believe.
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.1 Thessalonians 2:13

Pretty straight forward.
1. Beleif
2. God's word will be at work in you.
You constantly try to reverse the order.

And BTW:
1 Timothy 4:10
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
And there goes limited atonement out the window, too.

You do not understand any of these verses either?
You do not begin to grasp Ezk 34, nor any of these verses?
Rennicks are you a professed Christian or something else?
What church do you belong to?

 

[Candidus]