Regeneration before or after saving faith

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Joseph77

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It is true that God and Christ know in advance exactly who the sheep are (the ones who will believe and become children of God).

At the same time -- and this is critical -- we must be clear that if all would repent and obey the Gospel, all would become the sheep of the divine Shepherd. This is where Calvinism goes into false doctrine, claiming that all are not invited to become the sheep of Christ. That God literally consigns some to Hell in advance.
ooops..... flagrant quicksand?

Without Calvinism, men have always done 'well' making up things/ idolatry/ not in line with God's Word.

God knew before the Creation most of mankind would fail and would not repent and would not be saved and would perish/ being tossed in the lake of fire ....

In regards to only this, it doesn't change things whether they were invited or not - if they were or not, God's Judgment is Perfect, with no iniquity.

As for as your use of the word "consigns" - no need for it. God's Word is Truth, and is always in Perfect Harmony with His Plan and His Purpose in Christ Jesus. "in advance" ? no need for it - what God Says is Truth. He Always Knows Perfectly, Eternally.

As for as the speculation of the flesh - as if "all would repent and obey the Gospel" - that is directly opposed to all Scripture Revealed by God Himself, and also/thus/ opposed to God's Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus, and so is abandoned.
 

Joseph77

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Is it "amazing" that men sought to kill Jesus for healing people ? (and men seek to (and do) kill those who follow Jesus who heal people today ?)

Is it more amazing that most men refuse to ask God for healing or for help even when one third of all mankind dies ?

"For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house." Matt 9:5-6
 

amadeus

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Is it "amazing" that men sought to kill Jesus for healing people ? (and men seek to (and do) kill those who follow Jesus who heal people today ?)

Is it more amazing that most men refuse to ask God for healing or for help even when one third of all mankind dies ?
It is amazing that people say they love God while despising their neighbors. What happens is when Jesus works in a repentant and surrendered person to heal another in need, some simply still refuse to believe for if they really did would they not also repent, which means change? What they see as the easy way for them is simply to kill Jesus, if they can. Ultimately, they cannot, but they think that they can by killing the fleshly body of a man in whom Jesus is working. What have they done? But Jesus understands better than they do and is merciful:

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do..." Luke 23:34

How long will God be merciful?
 

amadeus

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So? Don't do that.
Of course, that is the Way we should be traveling, but is everyone traveling that same Way?

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" I John 4:20

But then what is the difference between a brother and a neighbor? Are we allowed to hate our neighbor? Remember here also the good Samaritan...
 

Joseph77

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Of course, that is the Way we should be traveling, but is everyone traveling that same Way?
Few are on the road to life.
If you are, then good. You cannot bring others with you (your own faith will just barely save your own soul, God Willing) even if your faith was as great as Abraham, Daniel's and Job's faith.
(Ezekiel 14, I think)
 
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Enoch111

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ooops..... flagrant quicksand?
And your response is PATENT NONSENSE. You have no scriptural basis for any of it.

"God knew before the Creation most of mankind would fail and would not repent and would not be saved and would perish/ being tossed in the lake of fire ...."

And yet Christ died for the sins of the whole world. And then commanded His disciples to preach the Gospel to "every creature" (Mk 16:15).
 

Joseph77

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You quote Scripture , yet why not understand it ?

Preaching did not save everyone preached to - even Jesus did not save most(or all) of those He preached to.

Most people today who have been preached to remain lost, as written (multitudes find out on judgment day).

Or do you deny that God always knows, always knew, who He would give to Jesus, and who would reject Jesus ?

And your response is PATENT NONSENSE. You have no scriptural basis for any of it.

"God knew before the Creation most of mankind would fail and would not repent and would not be saved and would perish/ being tossed in the lake of fire ...."

And yet Christ died for the sins of the whole world. And then commanded His disciples to preach the Gospel to "every creature" (Mk 16:15).
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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"Enoch111,

It is true that God and Christ know in advance exactly who the sheep are (the ones who will believe and become children of God).

They know who will believe because they have elected and purposed that those multitudes of sinners would believe because God was going to enable them to believe. He did not wait to see anything because he knew no one seeks God.

At the same time -- and this is critical -- we must be clear that if all would repent and obey the Gospel, all would become the sheep of the divine Shepherd
.
That is not what Jesus taught in JN 10:26...you believe NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP.
When anyone believes, if everyone in the world believes, they only do so because they are a sheep already. God had elected them before time. They were born dead in Adam, children of wrath even as others, But God who is rich in Mercy; see here;

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

This is where Calvinism goes into false doctrine,

I can assure you it does not Enoch.I have been in several Calvinistic churches, in several states
claiming that all are not invited to become the sheep of Christ.
We preach what is called the free offer of the gospel to sinners.
Sinners through the word preached are given no hope but in Jesus.
Election is the biblical teaching, but God has not told us who the elect are, so we preach to all men, That Jesus saves sinners. Only the sheep are going to believe it...they do not become sheep, they were "lost sheep" EZK34, who Jesus seeks and saves.

That God literally consigns some to Hell in advance.
Two eternal destinies are known to exist.
Eternal Life/ Eternal death
Heaven/Hell
In Christ/ Outside of Christ
All who remain dead in ADam, continue on to the second death.

All men would have perished if God did not intervene in Electing love.

God in love saves all he could possibly save, not one more, not one less. He passes by the rest in what is called preterition,[ passing over] Those past over are reprobated[rejected by God}Jer6

30 Reprobate silver shall men call them because the Lord hath rejected them.

Anywho question this, question the Holy wisdom and mercy of God.
 
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Enoch111

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Election is the biblical teaching, but God has not told us who the elect are, so we preach to all men, That Jesus saves sinners.
Election of those who are ALREADY SAVED is the biblical teaching. And that is election for perfection and glorification.

There is no election for salvation, since that would nullify the finished work of Christ, and the offer of salvation to all mankind.

However, I will not waste time showing you how you have misrepresented the Scriptures, since you will never give up your false gospel. But everyone who presents a false gospel will be held accountable.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Lol...I read the whole thing.. twice.

I am on my laptop now...I will show it;
Ezekiel 34 King James Version (KJV)
34 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea,
my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

8 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 For thus saith the Lord God;
Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered;

13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?

19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.

20 Therefore thus saith the Lord God unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.

21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;

22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them,

and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.

27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.

28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.

29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.

It is obvious that there is a particular group of people in mind.
there is no saying....people can sign up to be a sheep, make themselves a sheep, goats turning into sheep, no such nonsense in scripture.
False teachers seek to make a patchwork of out of context verses say what they do not say at all.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Election of those who are ALREADY SAVED is the biblical teaching. And that is election for perfection and glorification.

There is no election for salvation, since that would nullify the finished work of Christ, and the offer of salvation to all mankind.

However, I will not waste time showing you how you have misrepresented the Scriptures, since you will never give up your false gospel. But everyone who presents a false gospel will be held accountable.

Sorry, my clueless friend...you now post ignoring the Covenant nature of biblical salvation, then you have to strain and squirm to make it the way you want.
To accuse me and others of denying the perfect work of Jesus is a false attack.
I cannot let this slip by without comment.
Those very passages, like Hebrews 10 solidify the teaching without blemish.
The idea of as you say "election is of those already saved is too ludicrous to respond to.
Some of your posts are solid, then when you miss, you miss by a mile.

The only false gospel being spoken of is by you and the others suggesting men do something to save themselves, God watchs as a spectator, then rubber stamps their choice of Him , where the bible does not offer that as a possibility.
 
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amadeus

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Few are on the road to life.
If you are, then good. You cannot bring others with you (your own faith will just barely save your own soul, God Willing) even if your faith was as great as Abraham, Daniel's and Job's faith.
(Ezekiel 14, I think)
Yes, all alone when it comes now to it:

Try Noah instead of Abraham:

"Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness." Ezek 14:19-20
 
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Joseph77

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Try Noah instead of Abraham:


"Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness." Ezek 14:19-20


Yes, that is the Scripture ....

remember also, Abraham is "The Father of Faith"..... so the principle of Faith is recognized , and that of all Scripture in Harmony....
 
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Renniks

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2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us
Um, yeah, right here it clearly says we all were once children of disobedience. Verse three makes it plain we were no different than anyone else.

Are you somehow better than the ones who remain in their sins? Did God pick you because you are special?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

God requires faith, but we do nothing to save ourselves, he does that. So what do you tell someone who wants to know how to be saved? Do we say to forget about it, God will save you if he has picked you out because you are special, but chances are, you aren't one of the chosen few?
No, you tell them to believe in Christ's sacrifice for them. Which would be totally dishonest, if you only believe God died for a select few people.
 

amadeus

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Yes, that is the Scripture ....

remember also, Abraham is "The Father of Faith"..... so the principle of Faith is recognized , and that of all Scripture in Harmony....
Ezekiel's choice as per God's inspiration! Give God the glory!
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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"Enoch111,

Election of those who are ALREADY SAVED is the biblical teaching. And that is election for perfection and glorification.

There is no election for salvation,

Not what this says...
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Again...by ignoring the nature of the Covenant salvation you miss it.

since that would nullify the finished work of Christ, and the offer of salvation to all mankind.


The gospel is offered to all who hear it. Your point does not exist.

However, I will not waste time showing you how you have misrepresented the Scriptures, since you will never give up your false gospel. But everyone who presents a false gospel will be held accountable.


God saves ALL He intends to save which is truly good news.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Renniks,
Um, yeah, right here it clearly says we all were once children of disobedience. Verse three makes it plain we were no different than anyone else.

in post 1292 24 times God says He has an eye toward His Sheep. You ignore the whole chapter, no response by you on the actual verses. Earlier you claimed such a distinction is not made in scripture. Did you think we would forget what you said?

Are you somehow better than the ones who remain in their sins?
Not at all. No Calvinist would ever say such a thing. Where do you get such ideas?

Did God pick you because you are special?

No...it was mercy;
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

So what do you tell someone who wants to know how to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.

Do we say to forget about it, God will save you if he has picked you out because you are special, but chances are, you aren't one of the chosen few?[/QUOTE]

I tell them God has elected a multitude of sinners who The Father has given to the Son.
I tell them even though it is a great multitude, not everyone is going to come.
I then ask them if they have come to Jesus yet?
No, you tell them to believe in Christ's sacrifice for them

I never say that. I say Jesus saves sinners. Everyone believing by God-given faith will be saved
. Which would be totally dishonest, if you only believe God died for a select few people.

God is saving a great multitude that no man can number, You really do not understand Covenant salvation.
 
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