rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

[Tong2020]

And till today they deny it.
As a matter of fact, in Israel, at this time, they think they have found their messiah.
You can find his picture on Transit buses and in many shops.

Really.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Tong
R1969

 

[Tong2020]

No, It is not true that <<Jesus .. distinguished blasphemy against the Son of Man and blasphemy against the Spirit>>, He did right the opposite, Jesus Himself made this clear when He IDENTIFIED blasphemy against the Son of Man and blasphemy against the Spirit. Ja, that is what He did, saying,

John 6:62What and if ye shall see The Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is The Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life. 64But there are SOME of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray Him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Luke 2:34b This Child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 35(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of MANY HEARTS may be revealed.

Matthew 10:23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 24The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Matthew 12:31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

31Διὰ τοῦτο λέγω ὑμῖν, πᾶσα ἁμαρτία καὶ βλασφημία ἀφεθήσεται τοῖς ἀνθρώποις, ἡ δὲ τοῦ Πνεύματος βλασφημία οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται. 32καὶ ὃς ἐὰν εἴπῃ λόγον κατὰ τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, ἀφεθήσεται αὐτῷ· ὃς δ’ ἂν εἴπῃ κατὰ τοῦ Πνεύματος τοῦ Ἁγίου, οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται αὐτῷ οὔτε ἐν τούτῳ τῷ αἰῶνι οὔτε ἐν τῷ μέλλοντι.

Luke 11: 14And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. 15But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. 16And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. 17But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. 18If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. 19And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. 20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. 21When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. 23He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

12:8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: 9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. 10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. 11And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

8λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν, πᾶς ὃς ἂν ὁμολογήσῃ ἐν ἐμοὶ ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, καὶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁμολογήσει ἐν αὐτῷ ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀγγέλων τοῦ Θεοῦ· 9ὁ δὲ ἀρνησάμενός με ἐνώπιον τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀπαρνηθήσεται ἐνώπιον τῶν ἀγγέλων τοῦ Θεοῦ. 10καὶ πᾶς ὃς ἐρεῖ λόγον εἰς τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, ἀφεθήσεται αὐτῷ· τῷ δὲ εἰς τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα βλασφημήσαντι οὐκ ἀφεθήσεται. 11ὅταν δὲ εἰσφέρωσιν ὑμᾶς ἐπὶ τὰς συναγωγὰς καὶ τὰς ἀρχὰς καὶ τὰς ἐξουσίας, μὴ μεριμνήσητε πῶς ἢ τί ἀπολογήσησθε ἢ τί εἴπητε· 12τὸ γὰρ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα διδάξει ὑμᾶς ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ ὥρᾳ ἃ δεῖ εἰπεῖν.

Mark 3: 20And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. 22And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. 23And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? 24And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. 27No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

28Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πάντα ἀφεθήσεται τοῖς υἱοῖς τῶν ἀνθρώπων, τὰ ἁμαρτήματα καὶ αἱ βλασφημίαι, ὅσα ἐὰν βλασφημήσωσιν· 29ὃς δ’ ἂν βλασφημήσῃ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, οὐκ ἔχει ἄφεσιν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος. 30ὅτι ἔλεγον Πνεῦμα ἀκάθαρτον ἔχει.

The Son O'Man Jesus, Child O'Sign, Son O'Carpenter, The Crucified who was "set to a fall" but "through it triumphed", Himself made it clear the blasphemy of men was aimed and steered against Him the Son of Man of whom the Spirit Witnessed, Testified, and in SCRIPTURE SPOKE.

Yes Jesus indeed gave distinction. And the distinction is this, that blasphemy against the Son of Man can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Why you seem not to recognize that clear distinction, I can’t seem to understand why.

Tong
R1970

 

[Tong2020]

Blasphemy against the holy Spirit is declaring that the work of Christ is of Satan. In every Scripture where blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is spoken / written of, JESUS was blasphemed that HE, did satan's work. Jesus was the one ultimately blasphemed , not the Spirit. And it ALWAYS WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN HOLY SCRIPTURE, never directly the Holy Spirit (alone) that blasphemies were spoken against.

In the passages under consideration, such as in Mt. 12:22-32, both the Son of Man and the Spirit were blasphemed. Who is the Son of Man? He is Jesus, whose person is distinct from the Spirit. The Son of Man was Him who performs the works of the Spirit, and it is the Spirit that works the miracles through the Son of Man. They blasphemed against the Son of Man, speaking against Him to be a worker of Beelzebub, and they also blasphemed against the Spirit who worked the miracles, the good things they just have seen done through Jesus, as to be Satan and not of God from whom all good things come.

Tong
R1971

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Though they have the scriptures which speaks of the Messiah, they apparently were ignorant of the Messiah and did not recognize that He is Jesus. When Jesus was about to die on the cross, He said “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”

BECAUSE they had the SCRIPTURES which speak of the Messiah, and clearly read in their Bible and in their own lives unmistakably experienced in Jesus, the Messiah come among them in Person, they -- Jesus' own people -- DESPITE, would not admit or believe what they read and witnessed, NAMELY THE WORKS of the ALMIGHTY GOD, and, BECAUSE they had the SCRIPTURES, THEY, BLASPHEMED AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD IN THE BIBLE AS THEY BLASPHEMED AGAINST JESUS IN PERSON : like none other ever could possibly blaspheme. Nevertheless it was not because their blasphemies were too big for God's forgiveness, but because they were too big for God as well as for his free grace, that their blasphemies ever could be forgiven them.
I think there is a difference between them and any other people on earth ever as long as the others not also get too big for the free grace and forgiveness of THE ALMIGHTY GOD WITH US IN CHRIST. For these lesser, smaller, people, Jesus when He was about to die on the cross, prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

I believe Paul here meant until Jesus would come in the flesh. not saying I'm correct.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

In the passages under consideration, such as in Mt. 12:22-32, both the Son of Man and the Spirit were blasphemed.

Right! The Son of Man among them and the Spirit among them through the Scriptures. And yes, the Spirit was blasphemed as well, but the Spirit outside their hearts -- clearly the Holy Spirit wasn't in them... or THEY were the ones who by the chief devil cursed the minor devil spirits IN THEM.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Yes Jesus indeed gave distinction. And the distinction is this, that blasphemy against the Son of Man can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Why you seem not to recognize that clear distinction, I can’t seem to understand why.

It is you who don't see why. You bypass the Spirit IN SCRIPTURE -- the Holy Spirit of the WORD the Written Word and cause a short, connecting the Positive of the Divine with the negative, the ASSUMED Spirit of God PRESUMED in the sinful, mortal hearts of men.
There is no instance in Scripture of the Holy Spirit savingly in man which in the first place has not been the Holy Spirit of Scripture in Scripture which is the Holy Spirit of GOD before the Spirit in or of any assuming spirit. Look at the whole of the Gospels, that the overall and essential issue Jesus had with the Jews was that they denied the Holy Spirit of God IN SCRIPTURE WINESSING OF HIM, Jesus, and "NOT OF HIMSELF" or of Himself in MAN -- AS IS ALWAYS FALSELY CLAIMED. God is not bluffed by the universal pentecostal spirit of blasphemous VANITY enveloping the globe just to a-wall answering to the WORD, the LAW, "THUS SAITH THE LORD" : IN WRITING, so everyone does and teaches his own thing AT THE EXPENSE OF GOD'S TRUTH: "ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES".

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[Behold]

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Tong
R1969

Yes.
Israel is "blind" regarding the identity of their real Messiah, until the end of the "time of the Gentiles".

When Jesus comes back, taking flaming vengeance on "all those who believe not the Gospel", then "every knee will bow and every tongue is going to confess that JESUS IS LORD".

That reality check is going to be something to see.
Make sure you don't see it from down here, as if that happens, you are in big trouble.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

the distinction is this, that blasphemy against the Son of Man can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

This is a false and presumptuous <distinction> which YOU create. <Blasphemy against the Son of Man> is no different AND NONE OTHER than <blasphemy against the Spirit> that "will not be forgiven", not <<cannot be forgiven>> BECAUSE blasphemy against the Son of Man is blasphemy against the Spirit attesting CHRIST IN SCRIPTURE.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In the passages under consideration, such as in Mt. 12:22-32, both the Son of Man and the Spirit were blasphemed.

Right! The Son of Man among them and the Spirit among them through the Scriptures. And yes, the Spirit was blasphemed as well, but the Spirit outside their hearts -- clearly the Holy Spirit wasn't in them... or THEY were the ones who by the chief devil cursed the minor devil spirits IN THEM.

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit there in Mt.12 is not with regards scriptures, but with regards the good works they just have seen done through Jesus, as to be Satan and not of God from whom all good things come. For even while they know that the works are good and could only come from God, they still charge that such works were of Satan.

Tong
R1994

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit there in Mt.12 is not with regards scriptures, but with regards the good works they just have seen done through Jesus, as to be Satan and not of God from whom all good things come. For even while they know that the works are good and could only come from God, they still charge that such works were of Satan.

There is no blasphemy against works / <with regards good works> and there never was an instance of such <blasphemy> in Jesus' lifetime. You, just like the Pharisees did, PRETEND IGNORANCE of the ever-present SPIRIT witnessing, testifying and attesting to THE CHRIST of God covenanted, appointed, provided and PROPHESIED IN WHOLY WRIT.
If the Jews did not know the SCRIPTURES and that the SPIRIT of Scripture spoke of the CHRIST of Scripture, the Jews were the innocent, could not be the hypocrites, and Jesus, and not they, blasphemed, which was just what they in so many words spoke out against Jesus, the hypocrites!
Without the Spirit of SCIPTURE and in SCRIPTURE the terminus a quo and the Son the terminus ad quem there a priori cannot be blasphemy spoken against either.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[Tong2020]

There is no blasphemy against works / <with regards good works> and there never was an instance of such <blasphemy> in Jesus' lifetime. You, just like the Pharisees did, PRETEND IGNORANCE of the ever-present SPIRIT witnessing, testifying and attesting to THE CHRIST of God covenanted, appointed, provided and PROPHESIED IN WHOLY WRIT.
If the unbelievers did not know the SCRIPTURES and that the SPIRIT of Scripture spoke of the CHRIST of Scripture, the unbelievers were the innocent, could not be the hypocrites, and Jesus, and not they blasphemed.
Without the Spirit of SCIPTURE and in SCRIPTURE the terminus a quo and the Son the terminus ad quem there a priori cannot be blasphemy spoken against either.

There is no blasphemy against goods works but blasphemy against the Spirit with regards the works done through Jesus Christ.

Try to see what the point of Jesus was in what He said in Mt. 12:25-30.

The blasphemy spoken against the Son of Man and against the Spirit was coming from the testimony of good works, the healing of one who was demon possessed - blind and mute. It was not coming from the testimony of scriptures.

Tong
R1995

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

There is no blasphemy against goods works but blasphemy against the Spirit with regards the works done through Jesus Christ.

Try to see what the point of Jesus was in what He said

Yes, try to! The point Jesus wanted to make in Mt.12:25-30 was the point He made ALL THROUGH the Gospels, THAT HE WAS THE MESSIAH THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKS OF IN THE SCRIPTURES. Jesus never tried to make the people see anything else.

Your methodology falters at two points,

1) You ignore the Spirit points out the Christ in SCRIPTURE;

And

2) You ignore the MANY virtually identical OTHER passages in Scripture (the Gospels) making the same points

that it is the Spirit in SCRIPTURE that points out that Jesus was the Messiah, the only thing the Jews ever denied about BOTH Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and in effect denied about the SCRIPTURES JUST LIKE PEOPLE LIKE YOU STILL CARRY ON WITH TODAY.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The blasphemy spoken against the Son of Man and against the Spirit was coming from the testimony of good works, the healing of one who was demon possessed - blind and mute. It was not coming from the testimony of scriptures.

Denied. Fact of the matter in the specific incident is, the blasphemy spoken against the Son of Man and against the Spirit was coming from the testimony of the devil in hardened hearts of pharisaic hypocrites, jealously resenting Jesus' good work of healing one who was demon possessed - blind and mute. <It .. the blasphemy spoken against the Son of Man and against the Spirit> was coming from bigots and was directed against the Testimony of the Spirit of God in Scripture.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
There is no blasphemy against goods works but blasphemy against the Spirit with regards the works done through Jesus Christ.

Try to see what the point of Jesus was in what He said

Yes, try to! The point Jesus wanted to make in Mt.12:25-30 was the point He made ALL THROUGH the Gospels, THAT HE WAS THE MESSIAH THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKS OF IN THE SCRIPTURES. Jesus never tried to make the people see anything else.

Your methodology falters at two points,

1) You ignore the Spirit points out the Christ in SCRIPTURE;

And

2) You ignore the MANY virtually identical OTHER passages in Scripture (the Gospels) making the same points

that it is the Spirit in SCRIPTURE that points out that Jesus was the Messiah, the only thing the Jews ever denied about BOTH Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and in effect denied about the SCRIPTURES JUST LIKE PEOPLE LIKE YOU STILL CARRY ON WITH TODAY.

No reason for you to get personal. I was just telling you my take on the passage in Mt.12 regarding he blasphemy against the Son of Man and blasphemy against the Spirit.

Mt. 12:25Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.29Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Jesus was not talking about scriptures but about the healing of the demon possessed - mute and blind man that He had just performed, how the Pharisees are clearly guilty of blasphemy against the Son of man and against the Spirit.

<<< You ignore the Spirit points out the Christ in SCRIPTURE>>>

I don’t.

<<<You ignore the MANY virtually identical OTHER passages in Scripture (the Gospels) making the same points

that it is the Spirit in SCRIPTURE that points out that Jesus was the Messiah>>>

I don’t.

Tong
R1997

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The blasphemy spoken against the Son of Man and against the Spirit was coming from the testimony of good works, the healing of one who was demon possessed - blind and mute. It was not coming from the testimony of scriptures.

Denied. Fact of the matter in the specific incident is, the blasphemy spoken against the Son of Man and against the Spirit was coming from the testimony of the devil in hardened hearts of pharisaic hypocrites, jealously resenting Jesus' good work of healing one who was demon possessed - blind and mute. <It .. the blasphemy spoken against the Son of Man and against the Spirit> was coming from bigots and was directed against the Testimony of the Spirit of God in Scripture.

I don’t have the same view. I see the blasphemy against the Son of Man and against the Spirit, as made by the Pharisees based on and coming from the healing of the demon possessed - mute and blind man, not on and from the Scriptures.

Tong
R1998