rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
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Even a broken clock is right two times a day. SDA and RC may be right on this issue though they are incorrect on many issues.
Repeat of post #39--
Stay also with the CONTEXT the Inspired Words of Scripture stand, and you again cannot go wrong. Jesus said, “Wherefore I say unto you”, the Jews who denied HIM and his Deity. Jesus addressed the speakers of the “words against the Spirit” which was the Holy Spirit OF GOD who “testified” of Jesus’ and his Deity and DIVINE ability to forgive sins and save the lost. THAT WAS THE CONTEXT. Lose sight of it and loose any understanding of these Scriptures, and as a result of having no understanding of the SCRIPTURE OR THE SPIRIT OF ITS INSPIRATION, it becomes impossible to hold onto any true and correct explanation of what the sin against the Holy Spirit is. Should the Jews remain in their hardness of heart against the witness OF THE SCRIPTURES of Jesus, their SIN could never be and never would be forgiven them. HOW CAN IT, SEEING JESUS BECAUSE HE IS GOD IS THE ONLY WAY OF OR TO SALVATION?!
God is not divided. Sin against the Holy Spirit is sin against GOD: the Father AND the Son AND the Holy Spirit.
Sin against the Holy Spirit per se is abstract and senseless while the issue was about Jesus and Him as GOD the sole Forgiver of sins AS ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. No one in any of those conflict situations had any dislike in the Holy Spirit; everyone hated Jesus and hated that He proved HIMSELF BY THE SCRIPTURES. But here you come along and say those blasphemies are supposed to be against the Spirit as though <<blasphemy against the Spirit is blasphemy against the Spirit>> not against the Son or against SCRIPTURE WHEREIN THE HOLY SPIRIT TESTIFIES OF CHRIST NOT OF HIMSELF.
Jesus did not give the Jews a lecture in Logic or Linguistics or Maths. The church created this false picture of unbelievers throughout Jesus' life in the flesh denying and defying his DIVINITY WITNESSED TO BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IN SCRIPTURE.
The Catholic Antichrist invented the very 'unforgiveable sin', by having invented the very untruth so precisely defined here by yourself, that <<blasphemy against the Spirit is blasphemy against the Spirit; whether someone is blaspheming Him as He dwells in Christ or whether someone is blaspheming Him as He dwells within the believer>> because it in the first place is the TEARING APART OF GOD THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, and in the last and ultimate, is the TEARING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OUT OF HOLY SCRIPTURE THE VERY BREATH OF THE TESTIMONY AND WITNESS OF THE CHRIST.
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If anyone blasphemes against the Son they can be forgiven; but if they blaspheme against the Spirit they shall not be forgiven.
How is that not a tearing apart of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit dwelt within the Son and He also dwells within the believer.
To say that if I blaspheme the Spirit as He dwells within the Son, it is unpardonable, but if I blaspheme the Spirit as He dwells within the believer it is forgiveable, is to say that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit when He dwells within the Son but He is not the Holy Spirit when He dwells within the believer.
The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit whether He is dwelling withint the Son or whether He is dwelling within a son. It is the same Holy Spirit.
So, blasphemy against the Spirit is blasphemy against the Spirit, it is not blasphemy against the Son; for the latter thing is forgiveable.
How is that not a tearing apart of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
The Holy Spirit dwelt within the Son and He also dwells within the believer.
To say that if I blaspheme the Spirit as He dwells within the Son, it is unpardonable, but if I blaspheme the Spirit as He dwells within the believer it is forgiveable, is to say that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit when He dwells within the Son but He is not the Holy Spirit when He dwells within the believer.
The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit whether He is dwelling withint the Son or whether He is dwelling within a son. It is the same Holy Spirit.
So, blasphemy against the Spirit is blasphemy against the Spirit, it is not blasphemy against the Son; for the latter thing is forgiveable.
The Trinity is God in full fellowship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit which Tri-Une Being cannot be described properly with a single Preposition, 'in' like in <<the Spirit dwells _in_ Christ>>. The fact does not make the Spirit and the Christ the same or one only Person of or in the Tri-Une Godhead, GOD the Father AND the Son AND the Holy Spirit.
Why have you said, <<blasphemy against the Spirit is blasphemy against the Spirit; whether someone is blaspheming Him as He dwells in Christ or whether someone is blaspheming Him as He dwells within the believer>>? That was not the issue between the Jews and Jesus. And the issue between the Jews and Jesus was not their denial of the Spirit but their denial the Son of Man, Jesus... and not even that, but the issue was their denial of Jesus the Son of Man FORETOLD through the Testimony and Witness of the Holy Spirit in and of the SDRIPTURES. They refused and rejected the Truth that Jesus was The Word that in the beginning was GOD become GOD in the flesh among them. They did not argue when it was the Spirit that was in a person or not; they argued with words of blasphemy that Jesus was not the Saviour whom the Spirit promised in Scripture. Even John the Baptist was not spared thoughts of doubt whether Jesus was "THE ONE". And Nicodemus had to learn that "the wind bloweth where it listeth... as MOSES lifted up the serpent, EVEN SO THE SON OF MAN MUST BE LIFTED UP".
All Scripture is all about Jesus Lord God and Saviour "in the Scriptures" fulfilled.
Therefore your subtle insinuation that in my case I am <<blaspheming the Spirit as He dwells in Christ or .. as He dwells within the believer>>, is obnoxious, to say the least.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It's a beautiful rationalization to go completely against what Jesus said.
The truth <<the Holy Spirit dwelt within the Son and He also dwells within the believer>> never has been the issue. The pope and his priests of blasphemies tell you that is was. And just so it is the pope and the devil's ministers who teach <<blasphemy against the Spirit is .. not blasphemy against the Son>> and that <<blasphemy against the Son .. can be forgiven / is forgiveable>> but <<blasphemy against the Spirit>> is <<unforgiveable / shall not be forgiven>>.
And it is not useless but in fact blasphemous "words against the Spirit" that <<The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit whether He is dwelling withint the Son or whether He is dwelling within a son. It is the same Holy Spirit.>> You ONLY USE SUCH SENSELESS ENDLESS merry-go-round reasonings (3 times in one 'argument' you say it is the Holy Spirit) TO AVOID THE REAL ISSUE which you by now should know and indeed do know is NOT that <<It is the same Holy Spirit .. whether He is dwelling within the Son or whether He is dwelling within a son.>>, but that it is that the Holy Spirit SPEAKS IN SCRIPTURE OF JESUS CHRIST. THAT was what the hypocrite Jews fought against with endless and senseless words and arguments of blasphemy and would go to grave with arguing UNREPENTING.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Since Jesus said these words, you must reconcile it. The obvious and logical conclusion is they are not equal, torn apart if you must think so, in some ways.
Wasn't Jesus torn apart from the Father at the cross?
Otherwise, you are left with a statement from Jesus that has no practical application; that what he meant, in practice was the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he said. Indeed, with this rationalization, why even use 3 terms to describe 1?
By Moe, I meant Moe, Larry and Curly. By Moe, Larry and Curly, I meant Moe, etc. It's fanciful nonsense.
Did I say that I though that you had blasphemed the Holy Spirit? I don't think that I said that.
See Matthew 12:32.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Well, before I elaborate on my argument, please answer my question: Wasn't Jesus torn apart from the Father at the cross?
I believe that He was.
But the Bible is silent as to whether or not He was God in His own right, and therefore continued to be God when the Father left Him, or whether He was only God in that He was indwelt by the Father, and therefore when the Father left Him only the human Jesus was left on the Cross.
Personally, I think that He was God in His own right; even in His humanity: that in the hypostatic union God and man was never separated.
Because in order for Jesus to take upon His own shoulders the sins of all of humanity and pay the just penalty for all of those kazillions of sins, He could have only been the infinite God while suffering for the sins of the world.
There are those who believe that His suffering was only on the Cross (i.e. "It is finished") while others believe that He continued to suffer when He went into the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.
If He paid for our sins while only on the Cross, then He would not have had to continue to be God when He went into the grave; He would have paid for the sins of humanity in His infinite Person while suffering and dying on the Cross.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
The Bible says Jesus is not God over and over and over again. Please construct a stronger anti-trinitarian statement:
'For us, there is one God, the Father.'
1 Corinthians 8:6
That is only half a quote.
Here is the full quote:
1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; <even> one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(for the Greek word for "and" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 is "kai" which can be translated "even")
Now compare scripture to scripture according to the hermeneutic that is given in 1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv):
Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mar 12:29, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
But it is the relevant part of the verse. There is only one God, the Father. The Bible makes this point over and over again.
You should pray like this: Our Father in heaven
Jesus, Matthew 6:9
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I've addressed this over a dozen times already. God is synonymous with LORD, capital. There are many lords, lowercase: Voldemort, Vader, Cornwallis, Jesus, etc.
Trinitarians deliberately want to confuse the 2.
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”
Psalm 110:1
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
The words of JESUS will be our judge . IF JESUS said it , ITS TRUTH and cannot be denied . Either we believe HIM or men .
I choose JESUS , thus i choose what HE said in that bible .
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