All these posts and all these months -- NOW YOU TELL US WHO AND WHAT YOU ARE!
But thanks. No more wasting energy or sincerity on you...
rejecting Jesus Christ is different from the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
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All these posts and all these months -- NOW YOU TELL US WHO AND WHAT YOU ARE!
But thanks. No more wasting energy or sincerity on you...
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I would say that at the end of ones life, if you are in Christ, you are saved; if you are not, you aren't and you will suffer judgment/destruction. Either you have Jesus or you don't.
However, I do think blaspheming the Holy Spirit was a specific charge against the Pharisees or anyone at any time who claimed Jesus was performing miracles by the power of Satan. That is a unique charge. It is not the same as any other sin, sin we are born with, sins identified in the commandments, doing things that are ungodly, unlawful, hurting others and ourselves, all other sins. Saying God (the Holy Spirit) is Satan is quite different. The Pharisees from that point on could not ever change their minds and say, "You know Lord, we were just blind, we are sorry ... please forgive us." Jesus basically said, no, that particular sin is not forgivable.
We do hear and see these kinds of hateful accusations coming from Jews and Muslims. I suppose one would have to believe that there is a Devil, to charge a Christian, who is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, that his good works, prepared for and enacted by the Holy Spirit are empowered by Satan.
Then why did He say to the Father, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I fail to see what it is about my post that leads you to "give up on me"...
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit was not the issue in any specific INCIDENCE. The hypocrites acted defenders of the Spirit, not blasphemers of the Spirit, AGAINST JESUS AS PROPHESIED IN SCRIPTURE. The hypocrites falsely accused JESUS of casting out devils <<by the power of satan>>. Which means JESUS in their eyes was Satan and NOT THE MESSIAH OF THE SCRIPTURES, GOD. They having been HYPOCRITES the crux of the matter in every conflict situation lay in the implications of the Jews' words / arguments / blasphemies. Of course were they well trained in the use 'safe wording', the bigots.
But everybody - all Christianity - act protectors of the hypocrites' REAL INTENTIONS, that there are sins Jesus' forgiveness does not reach or cover, that there is that diabolic impotency in this son of man's amicability -- he drives out devils by the power of his superior! ABOMINABLE the very thoughts!
Jesus ALWAYS confronted the Pharisees and their academic colleagues with "SCRIPTURE CONCERNING THE CHRIST" and they ALWAYS DENIED THE HOLY GHOST SPEAKING IN SCRIPTURE OF HIM. There never was another way the bigots answered Jesus. They created 'the sin against the Holy Spirit' and Jesus NEVER like them used any unforgiveable sin to FRIGHTEN THE HELL into poor sinners.
Let me tell you, everyone, To say to the lost soul, Jesus forgave you all your sins except 'a specific charge of blasphemy performed by the power of Satan' in your life, is the height of pretentious GOD DEFYING arrogance -- is, ITSELF the sin against the Holy Spirit of God -- which exactly has been the sin the Christian Church specifically through its leadership has been committing since it lost its first love of God through JESUS CHRIST IN THE SCRIPTURES WITNESSED AND ATTESTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD.
I have had a life-time of FEAR due to this ARCH-LIE which devils with the mouths of men terrorise the hopeless with. I have learned by the grace of God I have a hope that is real by the Power of His Resurrection.
This: <<The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jesus after He was released to the Father at the Cross (LUke 23:46). He has lived a human life and therefore He understands humanity>>.
Jesus' words were NOT: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". It is the English translators' interpretation which they gave to the Greek "interpretation" which the Gospel writers give of Jesus' actual, direct quoting from the Hebrew SCRIPTURES in TWO places. The immediate context in the Gospels also, in the event of Jesus' speaking these Holy Spirit inspired words in Hebrew, makes an interpretation as <why hast thou forsaken me>, impossible, simply.
So, is there false doctrine in that statement that you can identify with holy scripture?
So, if the verse does not have Jesus saying, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me,
Then what does it have Jesus saying?
Well He did not speak out in English, that is for sure. Something you can take to the bank.
So, we cannot know what He actually said there, is what you are saying?
Why not just accept the translators' rendition of His statement; if the alternative is to be faced with a scripture that no one can know the meaning of?
If I was a fisherman, I have certainly got a live one on the hook. LOL. He certainly is not seeing the humour in what is a pointless discussion. Please chose a, b or c as to which is what you believe is the pointless answer.
True, but WHY? BECAUSE the Pharisees specifically made their blasphemous charge that <<Jesus was performing miracles by the power of Satan>> BECAUSE they denied the SPIRIT IN SCRIPTURE SPECIFICALLY WITNESSES OF JESUS CHRIST SPECIFICALLY.
The so-called 'sin against the Holy Spirit' is as real as it is specific, and if 'we' were able to have the insight, 'we' would have SEEN in every incidence of this so-called 'unforgiveable sin' THAT IT WAS RESISTENCE TO AND REJECTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN SCRIPTURE WITNESSING AND TESTIFYUING OF JESUS CHRIST SPECIFICALLY. Whoever therefore rejects and or falsifies SCRIPTURE THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD WRITTEN --the Bible-- commits the unforgiveable sin against the Holy Spirit.
THROUGHOUT HISTORY the pastors and leaders and heads of the People that claims to be the People of God, in order to get rid of Christ and his Truth in the Gospel of HIS FREE GRACE AND SALVATION, did their best in the disciplines of linguistics, dogmatics and ethics to reach this their covert purpose and aim of enslaving the conscience and bringing men under the bondage of their diabolical religious system. (the Church of Laodicea is an example. The Nicolaitans another. The Roman Catholic and General Catholic Church the outstanding example.
NO 'UNFORGIVEABLE SIN' IS FOUND IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST! Brothers, we are saved and free in Jesus Christ through Whom "God" is become "with us" ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HIS PROMISES AND ETERNAL COVENANT OF GRACE.
TAKE HEART AND REJOICE, GOD FORGAVE US ALL OUR SINS THROUGH GOD THE SON OF MAN ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE!
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If JBF does not know the meaning, no one can? A completely ungrounded complaint. Saying there's no <<scripture that no one can know the meaning>> of "σαβαχθανεί" only proves that you, and <the translators>, did not know.
Mark 15:34,35
καὶ τῇ ἐνάτῃ ὥρᾳ ἐβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ
At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λαμὰ σαβαχθανεί; ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani? which is, being interpreted,
Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
My God, my God, why hast thou separated / sanctified me?
Matthew 27:46,47
περὶ δὲ τὴν ἐνάτην ὥραν ἀνεβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγων
about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Ἡλεὶ Ἡλεὶ λεμὰ σαβαχθανεί; τοῦτ’ ἔστιν
Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say,
Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou separated / sanctified (forsaken) me?
Jesus never was forsaken by God, He experienced it for no moment in time that the Presence of God watched not over Him, even in death and the grave. What it means to me is that because Jesus never experienced the absence of either the Father or Holy Spirit, I never will. Jesus, dying, giving into his Father's hands his spirit In Full Fellowship of Father Son and Holy Spirit "ENTERED INTO HIS GLORY".
There are two exact uses of Jesus' words. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 6:11-13.
Psalm 22:1,20-25 Verses 1,2 is a rhetorical or reverse in meaning, call. It means confirmation of the opposite of the literal. The answer to the supposed question is: No, God, You have NOT forsaken Me, You are NOT far from Me, but near, helping Me. You HEARD the words of my roaring, You were at Me, as I cried, o God, in daytime or in the night season and never failed me, while I was never silent, always cried to You. [Exodus 12:3,5 Ezegiël 39:29; 40:1b,4 Exodus 10,12,14 John 12:27,28; 17:1,4,5 Psalm 139:12,15,16]
'In Full Fellowship' of Father Son and Holy Spirit Jesus alive and conscious, willing and desiring, "according to the Scriptures" to obey and fulfil <experienced> "all that the prophets have spoken concerning Him .. How the Christ ought to have suffered THESE THINGS AND ENTER INTO HIS GLORY". It is HERE that the Scriptures declare,
Mark 15:34,35
καὶ τῇ ἐνάτῃ ὥρᾳ ἐβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ
At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λαμὰ σαβαχθανεί; ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani? which is, being interpreted,
Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου, εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;
My God, my God, why hast thou separated / sanctified (forsaken) me?
Matthew 27:46,47
περὶ δὲ τὴν ἐνάτην ὥραν ἀνεβόησεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς φωνῇ μεγάλῃ λέγων
about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Ἡλεὶ Ἡλεὶ λεμὰ σαβαχθανεί; τοῦτ’ ἔστιν
Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say,
Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἵνα τί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
My God, my God, why hast thou separated / sanctified (forsaken) me?
Jesus never was forsaken by God, He experienced it for no moment in time that the Presence of God watched not over Him, even in death and the grave. What it means to me is that because Jesus never experienced the absence of either the Father or Holy Spirit, I never will. Jesus, dying, giving into his Father's hands his spirit In Full Fellowship of Father Son and Holy Spirit "ENTERED INTO HIS GLORY".
Yes, <<these words are a prophecy of the sufferings of our Lord>>, why limit the Lord's Suffering to the daytime? What about Jesus' Sufferings THAT SPECIFIC DAY IN ITS NIGHT BEFORE BECAUSE THAT AS MUCH AS WHAT OUR LORD WAS FACING THAT DAY IN ITS DAYTIME, WAS WHAT HE CRIED OUT FOR ON THE CROSS: "IS THIS THING WHAT THOU HAST SANCTIFIED-SEPARATED-HALLOWED, ME, FOR?" SINCE ETERNITY!
In Acts 2:27 quoting Psalm 16(LXX15):10, "Thou shalt not leave [ἐνκαταλείψεις] my soul in hell" - "leave" - 'azab' - commit, fail, leave et al and in Acts 2:27 specifically "NOT leave" viz., "NOT forsake .. in hell".
2 Corinthians 4:9 confirms exactly the same concerning Jesus, suffering dying death, saying to His Father—ALL THE WHILE WITH HIM—, "I give my spirit INTO thy hands". Where or how did the Father <forsake> his Son?! NEVER! If the Father forsook his Son it would have been as good as having “sent” Jesus into eternal oblivion.
“Forsake” in Isaiah 6:11-13 LXX
Isaiah 6 και εγενετο του ενιαυτου ου απεθανεν οζιας ο βασιλευς ειδον τον κυριον καθημενον επι θρονου υψηλου και επηρμενου και πληρης ο οικος της δοξης αυτου
11And I said, How long, O Lord? And He said, until the cities be deserted
11 και ειπα εως ποτε κυριε και ειπεν εως αν ερημωθωσιν πολεις
by reason of their not being inhabited,
παρα μη κατοικεισθαι
and the houses by reason of there being no men
και οικοι παρα το μη ειναι ανθρωπους
and the land shall be left desolate.
και η γη καταλειφθησεται ερημος.
12 And after this God shall far off remove the men.
12 Και μετα ταυτα μακρυνει ο θεος τους ανθρωπους.
But they that are left upon the earth shall be multiplied
Και οι εγκαταλειφθεντες επι της γης πληθυνθησονται
13 and yet, there shall not be a tenth (left saved) upon it
13 και ετι, επ αυτης εστιν το επιδεκατον
and again, it shall be for a spoil as a turpentine tree
και παλιν, εσται εις προνομην ως τερεβινθος
and as an acorn when it falls out of its husk.
και ως βαλανος οταν εκπεση απο της θηκης αυτης.
(*Westcott-Hort & Strongs G2641 V-APPNP καταλειφθεντες)
Antonyms changed into Synonyms
In order to change the LXX antonyms καταλειφθησεται–“be left desolate”, and ενκαταλειφθεντες–“be left saved”, into synonyms, simply REMOVE the first Preposition ‘εν’ in εγκαταλειφθεντες.
and the land shall be left desolate…but they that are left saved upon the earth shall be multiplied.
και η γη καταλειφθησεται ερημος…και οι εγκαταλειφθεντες επι της γης πληθυνθησονται.
Why? Because <<Enkataleipo means to forsake or abandon>> says Steve Owen. But Steve Owen FORGETS <forsake or abandon> is not what is written or what Mark or Matthew wrote or what Jesus, said-- is not even what Mark or Matthew "interpreted", but is what the translators decided "Sabachthani" - whether Hebrew or Aramaic (it does not matter!) -, must mean.
It is what the Holy Spirit decided "Sabachthani" means. It's right there in the Bible. Matthew 17:46; Mark 15:34. "My God. My God, "Is this what You have separated / sanctified Me for?" And the answer was, Yes, as per Psalm 22:1,2 and ALL Scripture confirming the INTEGRITY OF THE CHRIST OF GOD.
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I'm afraid that you are a little late.
Many Bibles have already been translated as Jesus saying, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Therefore it is known by the majority of Christians that this is what Jesus said.
To try to change the meaning of the holy scriptures after they have been in circulation for more than 400 years, I believe, will prove to be a fruitless endeavor. There will always be those who hold the scriptures as they read them in the translations that they have in their homes; most people are not going to believe in a change such as this.
Also, why would Jesus cry out, My God, my God, why hast thou sanctified me?
Jesus would know the answer to that question...because Jesus asked the Father to do so (John 17:17-19).
And if He was already sanctified because He sanctified Himself, where would be the need for the Father to sanctify Him?
<<Many Bibles have already been translated as Jesus saying, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?>>
Many? Many SINCE the KJV, yes, everyone of which <many> were but private versions or rather paraphrasing of the KJV. Bluff never works. So it is known by the majority of Christians that this is what the KJ Bible says, but there are a few who realise 'forsaken' is not what Jesus said.
Man, if you say the Father forsook Christ dying on the cross, you accuse Him of abandoning his own Son in his hour of death's agony, and of absconding from Post and Battlefield in the Conflict of the Ages over the Kingdom of God between God and Satan.
What say do <<the majority of Christians>> have?! Isn't it just what the Pharisees said? All Jews, because WE tell them what to know and believe, know, that this one claiming he is the Son of God is just a minor devil performing the bidding of his senior devil. THIS is blasphemy STILL with the identical "words spoken AGAINST the Spirit" speaking IN "THE SCRIPTURES CONCERNING THE CHRIST".
I don’t know why you have to explain away what Jesus said plainly that blasphemy against the Spirit have no forgiveness.
Matthew 12:31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
What was the blasphemy in the passage ?
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except byBeelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”
The blasphemy against Jesus is the slander that he is casting out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of demons. The slander against the Spirit is that He is Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons. The former, Jesus said can be forgiven, but not the latter, not then, not now, nor in the age to come.
Tong
1941
Yes God is not divided. But while He is not divided, He is triune. In His trinity, there is a distinction between the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus said that there is no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Spirit, then there isn’t. And if He said that every kind of sin and blasphemy against the Son of Man can be forgiven, then there is forgiveness. We must not alter what He said nor explain it away just to go satisfy our human thinking and reasoning. The words of Jesus Christ are truth, and truth prevails over man’s thinking and reasoning.
Tong
R1942
I do not, and I do not <<have to explain away what Jesus said plainly>> -- according to YOU, <<that blasphemy against the Spirit have [Sic.] no forgiveness>> because what you say is <plainly> not <what Jesus said> because it not by far is ALL that Jesus had said. It is very easy and it looks very convincing making a sweeping statement like you do, of only PART of what Jesus said while ignoring completely the total context as well as all the many other statements Jesus had made on the very same issue.
What in the context changes what Jesus said about blasphemy against the Spirit being without forgiveness?
Tong
R1943
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