Replacement Theology thrown down in 1 verse?

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farouk

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I come from a post-supersessionist position. I comprehend the supersessionist position. That said who can speak to every little nuance someone may hold on any given position? Yet concerning the OP, I don't agree that is a slam dunk refutation of supersessionism.

I think we all concede the promises of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29) Then it is the book of Ezekiel that becomes a focus of contention. A major dilemma rests on whether you see the temple visions as literal or spiritual. I see the third temple as literal based on 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Paul here seems to be speaking of a literal event. I do not believe the temple is destroyed at the penning of this epistle (pre 70 AD). I do not believe this is referring to Antiochus Epiphanes. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 refutes that view. I also do not see the son of destruction somehow possessing or demonizing every saint (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). So then if the 3rd temple is a real event or physical building, this brings into question a number of other texts that are spiritualized through a supersessionist position.

To a common objection:
Without question I believe none are saved outside of Christ. None can come to the Father except through him. Yet it has never been the church's role to judge who may inherit salvation, though try as they may. This is due to God alone. There is but one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus. I believe every man will be judged based upon the information they have received. (Luke 12:47-48) OT and NT saints are covered by the same sacrifice. One group looked forward, while the other looks back. Concerning the Jews today, some are of the spirit of the anti-Christ, while some are not. God has not turned his back on his covenant people, he has chosen to show mercy to a people who was not his own.

A partial hardening has occurred for the sake of the Gentiles> to whom? Israel. Here Paul makes a clear distinction that he is speaking of Israel as a nation people and he is not conflating Israel with the church. The church is not hardened at all. So then this partial hardening has a definite timing, until the fullness of the Gentiles (every tribe and every nation). God will then direct his attention and mercies back to his covenant peoples after the fulfillment of the promise for the Gentiles.
It's interesting also that, in Luke 22's account of the institution of the Lord's Supper, the passage presents the opening moments as the last passover (looking forward to the finished sacrifice) and then the account is about the first Lord's Supper which will soon be looking back to the finished sacrifice at the Cross.

Very searching indeed.
 
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Waiting on him

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TKe a look at Ruth the Moabite. Has child. Lays child in Naomi’s bosom. How does a barren woman nurse a child?
Milk??
 

Naomi25

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It is obvious that God would never permit such an occurrence. Yet we do know, as you say, that we "shall be hated of all nations for My names sake"...and there is a a time when Satan is given his opportunity, but only the deceived will fall for it...the wise shall understand...But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief....
Not all shall be led into this rebellion....

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


For Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. -Revelation 20:7–8

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. -Matthew 24:22
 

Waiting on him

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And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. -Revelation 20:7–8

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. -Matthew 24:22
Sometimes I feel like I’m witnessing his little season
 

Naomi25

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It's a matter of timing. Presently, Satan is only restrained from coming to the earth, not from being able to affect it by all his massive amount of demons. At the end of the 70th week, he is not only bound he is also thrown into a bottomless pit for a thousand years. Two different levels of restraining at two different times.

You get all that from two words? Two words that mean essentially the same thing? Wow.
Pretend, if you will, just for a moment, that this passage is talking about the same period of time in Revelation AFTER Satan has been "released for a little time". I know the AC is not Satan, but they will work hand in hand with the AC using Satan's power, which means his tactics will be the same:

And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. -2 Thessalonians 2:6–12

Does this not sound just a little familiar? Satan, having been bound against deceiving the Nations, once released, will send his 'emissary' by his power and deceive those who do not 'love the truth'. Basically...he's going to deceive the nations.
The similarities here are too many to ignore, in my opinion. And certainly more weighty than the difference (apparently) between two words that are essentially the same.
 

Naomi25

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Sometimes I feel like I’m witnessing his little season
Maybe you are. We don't know when it will start, how bad it will get or how long it will last. But, it surely is getting worse for Christians and those who love the truth, that's for sure.
 
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brakelite

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And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. -Revelation 20:7–8

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. -Matthew 24:22
Two completely different times and circumstances. The first above refers to the end of the millennium when once again there are people to tempt because all the wicked have just been resurrected...the second resurrection...the resurrection to damnation...and all the redeemed are safely behind the walls of the new Jerusalem, just descended from heaven onto the earth. The reason Satan was bound the previous 1000 years, unable to tempt the nations, was because there weren't any. Everyone was dead. We were in heaven.
The second refers to the real 'great tribulation', not the 'time of trouble' that Jesus refers to separately. That great tribulation refers to the 1260 years of Papal persecutions when she "made war with the saints, and overcame them". 50 million and counting. That period of tribulation was cut short by the reformation and the printing press giving the world the scriptures with which to unmask the antichrist, and come out. Sadly today, no-one believes that anymore, and are going back in.
 

Trekson

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You get all that from two words? Two words that mean essentially the same thing? Wow.
Pretend, if you will, just for a moment, that this passage is talking about the same period of time in Revelation AFTER Satan has been "released for a little time". I know the AC is not Satan, but they will work hand in hand with the AC using Satan's power, which means his tactics will be the same:

And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. -2 Thessalonians 2:6–12

Does this not sound just a little familiar? Satan, having been bound against deceiving the Nations, once released, will send his 'emissary' by his power and deceive those who do not 'love the truth'. Basically...he's going to deceive the nations.
The similarities here are too many to ignore, in my opinion. And certainly more weighty than the difference (apparently) between two words that are essentially the same.

There is nothing in scripture that implies when satan is loosed at the end of the millennium, he will have any kind of emissary. It's only him, the false prophet and the a/c remain in the lake of fire.
 
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brakelite

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I think this is certainly something to think about, and I think that the huge number of national Jews who have died over the years apart from Christ represent that unfaithfulness. The reason I think Romans 11 speaks of a large scale influx of Jews to Christ at the end (by all means not all of them) is because he deliberately refers to such a phenomenon (if/then) and to Israel specifically as opposed to the Christians gentiles (ie, the Church) whom he is speaking to ("do not become conceited").
I have never been one to suggest exclusion of Israelites...true Israelites...from God's grace. Israel in the OT were never saved by anything other than grace, and Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, just as God never changes. So no issues there with any individual descendant of Abraham being a candidate for salvation through Christ, just as we are. But in addition, sure, God still yearns that such should return to Him for the fathers' sake...for to them do belong the heritage and beauty of all the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises...so yes, such an easy thing for them to be re-attached to the Vine, but the nation...the political entity we today call "Israel", I see no evidence in scripture to support such a concept and all or any of the peripheral additional assumptions that are made in support of that nation being top dog during any millennial reign.
 

Naomi25

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Two completely different times and circumstances. The first above refers to the end of the millennium when once again there are people to tempt because all the wicked have just been resurrected...the second resurrection...the resurrection to damnation...and all the redeemed are safely behind the walls of the new Jerusalem, just descended from heaven onto the earth. The reason Satan was bound the previous 1000 years, unable to tempt the nations, was because there weren't any. Everyone was dead. We were in heaven.
The second refers to the real 'great tribulation', not the 'time of trouble' that Jesus refers to separately. That great tribulation refers to the 1260 years of Papal persecutions when she "made war with the saints, and overcame them". 50 million and counting. That period of tribulation was cut short by the reformation and the printing press giving the world the scriptures with which to unmask the antichrist, and come out. Sadly today, no-one believes that anymore, and are going back in.

Well, we might just have to disagree about this! :D I think scripture is convincing in discribing the Millennium as a current reality. And the second verse I think, considering the reference to "no human being" it has to be referencing a time of immence, global strife and persecution and hardship for all mankind, not just the ones effected by Catholicsm. Which would lead us to, again, the end of this Age.
 

Naomi25

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There is nothing in scripture that implies when satan is loosed at the end of the millennium, he will have any kind of emissary. It's only him, the false prophet and the a/c remain in the lake of fire.
It's more of an ipso facto thing: 2 Thess 2 tells us the AC comes by the power of Satan. And if we've determined beforehand that Revelation is not chronological by recapitulative, then we do not force ourselves into the assumption that when Satan is 'released' he is by himself. Because if we drop that assumption, the texts are remarkably similar. That alone should warrent some consideration from us.
 

Naomi25

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I have never been one to suggest exclusion of Israelites...true Israelites...from God's grace. Israel in the OT were never saved by anything other than grace, and Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, just as God never changes. So no issues there with any individual descendant of Abraham being a candidate for salvation through Christ, just as we are. But in addition, sure, God still yearns that such should return to Him for the fathers' sake...for to them do belong the heritage and beauty of all the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises...so yes, such an easy thing for them to be re-attached to the Vine, but the nation...the political entity we today call "Israel", I see no evidence in scripture to support such a concept and all or any of the peripheral additional assumptions that are made in support of that nation being top dog during any millennial reign.

No...neither do I. This is where Dispensationalism veers away from most other systems...they hold a distinct difference for the identity of 'Israel' in the Tribulation and Millennium. While most, if they see Romans 11 as saying a great number of Jews will come to Christ, see it as just more people being added to the Church, the body of Christ, who will share in all things promised in Christ, both now and in the Millennium. I think the bible is quite clear...we all become one in Christ...in him he breaks down all walls and divisions so that there is no distinctions left. We all just belong to him.
 
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Trekson

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I think the bible is quite clear...we all become one in Christ...in him he breaks down all walls and divisions so that there is no distinctions left. We all just belong to him.

With that I can agree although I think it will happen in a different way than you and most Dispensationalists think.
 

Trekson

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First, I never said the AC is Satan. Secondly, I'm not sure how you can say I am removing text.
Thirdly, this might hold more weight if you could prove Chapter 20 comes chronologically after Chapter 19.
The problem with holding Revelation is a chronological narrative, is that Jesus seems to return several times:

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” -Revelation 6:12–17

The actual return and His wrath are two different things. Jesus is not returning at this time. They are aware of his wrath because, hopefully, it was the church doing its job and reminding the earth of these signs and what they represent. They don't cry out "Jesus is coming", they just mention the wrath. They mention the two heavenly wraths of scripture. The wrath of He who sits on the throne (the bowls, Rev. 16:1) and the wrath of the Lamb which are the trumpet judgments. This combination are the wrath we shall not experience per Thessalonians.

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” ...Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. -Revelation 11:15,19

Again, Jesus is not returning here, nothing in this passage suggests it. They are proclaiming the fact by faith of what will become the actual reality, quite soon from the timing of this. It can be said that the proclamation of vs. 15 could have been claimed at His resurrection and it would have been true then as well, but as we all know, sometimes what we believe will happen by faith, takes some time for the actual reality to occur. Others have called it "speaking forward in faith".

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe. -Revelation 16:17–21

What is done? Simply the bowls of God's wrath are completed. Nothing in this passage suggests a return at this point either. All the rest of the verse happens after the phrase, "it is done". According to the internet there were 12,767 earthquakes in 2017. Why is it hard to understand that at the end of days there can be more than one great earthquake, ending with the finale from vs. 17?

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Finally, yes this is the actual physical return of Christ to the Earth. (not to be confused with the return in the clouds for His church) Is the sword symbolic? Yes, but is has been explained previously in scripture as most Christians know that the "sword of the spirit" is "the word of God" and is understood immediately. Many of the other things that could be taken as symbolic are simply descriptive.
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. -Revelation 19:11–21 The results of the completion of Armageddon and some could consider this as symbolic for the "marriage supper".

We see several things with these passages: each one undoubtably talks about the finality of God's judgement, his Kingdom coming, his day arriving, of people being face to face with the judge. Everything in scripture tells us that these events are Christ's return. And we can also link the passages with their apocolytic images, earthquakes, hail. Interestingly, just as the 7 seal, trumpet and bowl judements increase in intensity, so too do the description of Christ's return. The description of the earthquake and the hail becomes greater each time, finally we reach Chapter 19, where we are given a full description about Christ's return and judgement on the wicked.
But each passage clearly talks of Christ's return. So...either Christ returns numerous times, or we begin to understand Revelation is not chronological. Which means that assuming that Rev 20 must, therefore, take place after Christ's second advent, is not strictly logical or even biblical. And it seems to me that relying only on chronology to back up a doctrine, is a problem. Because, as I've repeatedly pointed out, Rev 20 does not back up anything else you say. The whole weight of your argument rests on chronology and OT verses that can clearly be seen as referring to the eternal state.

Your highlighted conclusions above are inaccurate, imo and can be shown to be indeed, chronological.
 

Naomi25

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Your highlighted conclusions above are inaccurate, imo and can be shown to be indeed, chronological.

It could well be that my conclusions are innaccurate, but it would be nice if you could 'show' it with bible verses, rather than opinion. I mean, sure, our own opinions come into it without question, we can't really escape that...personal presuppositions always factor into how we see or interpret something. And that's why I think it's so important to show scripture when we are trying to sway an argument with opinion. Can our opinions be bolstered by the Word of God?
Because here's what I see in regards to the question:
In Revelation 6 it says:

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” -Revelation 6:12–17

And then this in Revelation 20:

Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. -Revelation 20:11

So...either we have a sky that rolls up and vanishes twice in the book of Revelation...a pretty neat trick, or we have one event that is being spoken of twice. One event that both speaks of the sky rolling up and fleeing, of people being in terror at facing the one who sits on the throne.
Now...as Dispensationalists are...in literalists, the ought to take these two discriptions at face value. The sky should vanish. People should be attempting to escape the face of the one who sits on the throne. When will the face the one who sits on the throne? At judgement. When cosmic events will take place. When we can expect the sky will 'vanish and roll up'.

Now, I could go on and make the same point with many, many other verses, but I don't have the time and I believe that makes my case. These two verses bookend Revelation. If Revelation was chronological, this presents a problem. A big problem.
 

Trekson

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Now, I could go on and make the same point with many, many other verses, but I don't have the time and I believe that makes my case. These two verses bookend Revelation. If Revelation was chronological, this presents a problem. A big problem.

Not really, first what do you think it would look like after the sky "vanishes"? Have you ever heard the expression by a weatherman, (not exactly) "later on today you'll see the clouds rolling in..."? Could clouds "roll in" more than once so that you can no longer see the lights of the heavens? If you were stargazing on a clear night and all of a sudden it got all dark and cloudy and you couldn't see the moon or stars anymore, it would seem like they vanished or rolled out of existence. Is it possible to have more than one cloudy night? One that in different phases of wrath and judgment might look similar? Most literalists I know use their common sense because we're not supposed to look for secret, symbolic meanings in every little phrase. If it makes sense, don't waste you time looking for another sense!
 

Naomi25

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Not really, first what do you think it would look like after the sky "vanishes"? Have you ever heard the expression by a weatherman, (not exactly) "later on today you'll see the clouds rolling in..."? Could clouds "roll in" more than once so that you can no longer see the lights of the heavens? If you were stargazing on a clear night and all of a sudden it got all dark and cloudy and you couldn't see the moon or stars anymore, it would seem like they vanished or rolled out of existence. Is it possible to have more than one cloudy night? One that in different phases of wrath and judgment might look similar? Most literalists I know use their common sense because we're not supposed to look for secret, symbolic meanings in every little phrase. If it makes sense, don't waste you time looking for another sense!

Wow. That's a very...literal...interpretation. Earthquakes have to be earthquakes. Volcanoes have to be volcanoes. 1000 years has to be 1000 years. But when the sky vanishes, that means heavy cloud cover? Riiiight. Sure. Okay. And in Rev 20:11 when earth and sky flee away from the one on the throne? That's what? Heavy cloud cover and fog? Cause mist has no respect for God's presence? The literal hermeneutic rolls on...
 

Trekson

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Wow. That's a very...literal...interpretation. Earthquakes have to be earthquakes. Volcanoes have to be volcanoes. 1000 years has to be 1000 years. But when the sky vanishes, that means heavy cloud cover? Riiiight. Sure. Okay. And in Rev 20:11 when earth and sky flee away from the one on the throne? That's what? Heavy cloud cover and fog? Cause mist has no respect for God's presence? The literal hermeneutic rolls on...

You never answered the question, What do you think will it look like when the sky vanishes? Don't mock unless you can come up with a better answer. Consider this, look up on a nice clear sunny day, look at the blue sky and the occasional cloud. Now look again on a nice dark clear night when all the stars are easily seen. HMM, why it looks like the daytime sky just vanished away.
 

Naomi25

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You never answered the question, What do you think will it look like when the sky vanishes? Don't mock unless you can come up with a better answer. Consider this, look up on a nice clear sunny day, look at the blue sky and the occasional cloud. Now look again on a nice dark clear night when all the stars are easily seen. HMM, why it looks like the daytime sky just vanished away.
How does it look? I think it will look like the world ending. I think the atmosphere will be burning up and disappearing. I think it will be such a cataclysmic event that no one will mistake it for what it is: the earth shaking and trembling at the presence of God.
To suggest that it will merely be cloud cover...like we see on any random day, rather takes away the punch of the text, don't you think?
Besides...if it were going to be cloud cover...as per literal interpretation, don't you think it would have been easy for John to just say, "cloud cover"?
 

Trekson

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How does it look? I think it will look like the world ending. I think the atmosphere will be burning up and disappearing. I think it will be such a cataclysmic event that no one will mistake it for what it is: the earth shaking and trembling at the presence of God.
To suggest that it will merely be cloud cover...like we see on any random day, rather takes away the punch of the text, don't you think?
Besides...if it were going to be cloud cover...as per literal interpretation, don't you think it would have been easy for John to just say, "cloud cover"?

In every case in the word that matters when God exercises judgment/punishment/miracles, so far, God has used natural things or things found in or on the earth. The only exception might be rain because some people believe it never rained until Noah, it wasn't new, per se, it was ice used in a different way. The burning bush, Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife, earthquakes, volcanoes, flood, fire, siege machines built by man, humans acting like asses or losing their ability to speak, etc. Could God change things up? Yes, but I think what we see in Rev. are things that will be natural to our generation and John is describing them as best as he can. Considering the message he is writing, is it a stretch that Jesus might want to use dramatic wording to enhance their importance. Regarding the contemporariness of the message. Prophecy, in most cases is never for the generation that receives it. They are usually for several generations in the future. If there were any, I can't think of them at the moment.