Replacement Theology thrown down in 1 verse?

[Trekson]

Ahem. You DO know that 'restrained' is a synonym of 'bound'...right?

KJV - "letteth" - G2722 - to hold fast, possess, retain, seize, withhold

 

[CoreIssue]

First, I never said the AC is Satan. Secondly, I'm not sure how you can say I am removing text.
Thirdly, this might hold more weight if you could prove Chapter 20 comes chronologically after Chapter 19.
The problem with holding Revelation is a chronological narrative, is that Jesus seems to return several times:

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” -Revelation 6:12–17

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” ...Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. -Revelation 11:15,19

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe. -Revelation 16:17–21

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh. -Revelation 19:11–21

We see several things with these passages: each one undoubtably talks about the finality of God's judgement, his Kingdom coming, his day arriving, of people being face to face with the judge. Everything in scripture tells us that these events are Christ's return. And we can also link the passages with their apocolytic images, earthquakes, hail. Interestingly, just as the 7 seal, trumpet and bowl judements increase in intensity, so too do the description of Christ's return. The description of the earthquake and the hail becomes greater each time, finally we reach Chapter 19, where we are given a full description about Christ's return and judgement on the wicked.
But each passage clearly talks of Christ's return. So...either Christ returns numerous times, or we begin to understand Revelation is not chronological. Which means that assuming that Rev 20 must, therefore, take place after Christ's second advent, is not strictly logical or even biblical. And it seems to me that relying only on chronology to back up a doctrine, is a problem. Because, as I've repeatedly pointed out, Rev 20 does not back up anything else you say. The whole weight of your argument rests on chronology and OT verses that can clearly be seen as referring to the eternal state.

The passage was too good to pass up concerning those who think Satan is the AC. So was there for their benefit.

And the problem with all your claims is you make everything figurative so nothing you say is trustable.

As I said, when you read figuratively you can make it say anything you want and don't have to prove a thing.

 

[Dave L]

Meaning you want to make them mean anything you want.

So much for your claims of using systematic theology. Again you prove you don't.

If you look for the symbols you will never see them materialize. Red Dragons and green horses? A two edged sword protruding from Jesus' mouth. etc. You need to look for what the symbols represent and see many of the m in history, now, and know what to expect.

 

[CoreIssue]

If you look for the symbols you will never see them materialize. Red Dragons and green horses? A two edged sword protruding from Jesus' mouth. etc. You need to look for what the symbols represent and see many of the m in history, now, and know what to expect.

But all of them are defined in the Bible.

It literally tells us the Dragon is Satan. and that the tongue is sharper than any two-edged sword.

 

[Dave L]

But all of them are defined in the Bible.

But do you really look for green horses or what they represent?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

It's obvious that replacement theology is a lie, but with that does this verse in Romans shoot down the whole heresy in one statement: Romans 11: 1 "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!"

This verse does not throw anything down. It is just a basic statement of fact.

 

[Enoch111]

But do you really look for green horses or what they represent?

There are no green horses in the Bible. Did one of the little green men get to you?

 

[Naomi25]

KJV - "letteth" - G2722 - to hold fast, possess, retain, seize, withhold

"Restrain"- synonyms: confine, constrain, bind, detain, govern, hinder, limit, prevent, restrict, subdue.......etc
"Bound" - constrained, restrained, bent, compelled, driven, foreced, impelled, obliged.....etc

Can you truly not see the similarites?

 

[Naomi25]

The passage was too good to pass up concerning those who think Satan is the AC. So was there for their benefit.

And the problem with all your claims is you make everything figurative so nothing you say is trustable.

As I said, when you read figuratively you can make it say anything you want and don't have to prove a thing.

That's slightly funny, actually. Because from where I'm sitting, I'm the only one who's been even slightly bothered backing up my thoughts with scripture. I can make it "say anything and don't have to prove a thing?" What a laugh! You, who have provided plenty of pickled opinions to back up his own doctrines, thinking that alone will suffice? Why do you think I post so much scripture? Is it because I think I've sucessfully made it say what I want? Pffst! God's word stands, that's why! It is truth! It should shine through all rot and rubbish. And if my opinions cannot stand under the text I provide, then I ought to wear that. But here's the thing...at his point, that's not going to happen unless you step up to the plate and defend your doctrine with God's word rather than vague insults and opinion alone. I continually invite you to do that. I can't help wondering why you don't?

 

[Trekson]

"Restrain"- synonyms: confine, constrain, bind, detain, govern, hinder, limit, prevent, restrict, subdue.......etc
"Bound" - constrained, restrained, bent, compelled, driven, foreced, impelled, obliged.....etc

Can you truly not see the similarites?

Yes, they're similar. What does that mean to you?

 

[justaname]

I come from a post-supersessionist position. I comprehend the supersessionist position. That said who can speak to every little nuance someone may hold on any given position? Yet concerning the OP, I don't agree that is a slam dunk refutation of supersessionism.

I think we all concede the promises of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29) Then it is the book of Ezekiel that becomes a focus of contention. A major dilemma rests on whether you see the temple visions as literal or spiritual. I see the third temple as literal based on 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Paul here seems to be speaking of a literal event. I do not believe the temple is destroyed at the penning of this epistle (pre 70 AD). I do not believe this is referring to Antiochus Epiphanes. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 refutes that view. I also do not see the son of destruction somehow possessing or demonizing every saint (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). So then if the 3rd temple is a real event or physical building, this brings into question a number of other texts that are spiritualized through a supersessionist position.

To a common objection:
Without question I believe none are saved outside of Christ. None can come to the Father except through him. Yet it has never been the church's role to judge who may inherit salvation, though try as they may. This is due to God alone. There is but one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus. I believe every man will be judged based upon the information they have received. (Luke 12:47-48) OT and NT saints are covered by the same sacrifice. One group looked forward, while the other looks back. Concerning the Jews today, some are of the spirit of the anti-Christ, while some are not. God has not turned his back on his covenant people, he has chosen to show mercy to a people who was not his own.

A partial hardening has occurred for the sake of the Gentiles> to whom? Israel. Here Paul makes a clear distinction that he is speaking of Israel as a nation people and he is not conflating Israel with the church. The church is not hardened at all. So then this partial hardening has a definite timing, until the fullness of the Gentiles (every tribe and every nation). God will then direct his attention and mercies back to his covenant peoples after the fulfillment of the promise for the Gentiles.

 

[Dave L]

There are no green horses in the Bible. Did one of the little green men get to you?

“And I looked, and behold a pale [Greek = green] horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.” (Revelation 6:8) (KJV 1900)

 

[brakelite]

I think Paul says it quite well:

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. -Romans 11:33–36

Can we necessarily understand why God has done it this way? Not beyond what he's told us: to make Israel "jealous". But God is good and wise and we can look to the amazing love demonstrated on the cross and just know that in all things we can humbly praise him for his incredible mercies.

As I read through the OT I can't help but notice the incredible unfaithfulness of Israel. From the time of Israels kids to the present day, regardless of the promises and advantages they have had, one has to wonder how many of the millions who were born will finally make it into the kingdom, especially when you consider Isaiah's lament that there shall be only a remnant, and Jesus own declaration that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8:11,12 I think that when Paul said all Israel shall be saved, he was not speaking about any nation, but all the children of the promise. And what more does the gospel offer than children of promise?

 

[brakelite]

Hi Naomi, I would say this "remnant" are citizens of national Israel. Acts 2:5 - "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." Acts 2:41 - 3000 souls, Acts 4:4 - 5000 souls. We aren't told how long Peter preached before he had the vision concerning Cornelius but all the souls saved until the gospel was offered to the Gentiles would be considered the believing remnant of national Israel of that day.

Now it's my understanding that replacement theology sees no place in God's plan for the nation of Israel but we know the gospel to the Gentiles has a limited timeline. "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." We believe that this is referring to and is the same as Rev. 11:2 - "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." So we know at some point concerning Israel there will be a final 3 1/2 yr. period of judgment.

I see Revelation as literal and future when it speaks about 12,000 from each tribe in Rev. 7:4-8. One of the reasons I believe it is future as that the tribes have changed from what they originally were. The tribe of Dan was replaced by the tribe of Manassas (one of Joseph's sons). You are correct when you say that during this time until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled there is no place for national Israel, but when that time is over there will come a change.

Your words, "But if any of National Israel is to be saved it must be through Christ, which we know, how then do we make up a new, different category for them, apart from "Church of Christ"?"

The 144,000 will be born again believers but that doesn't take away their nationality. In your earlier reference Greek doesn't mean Greek, it means gentile. God has a purpose for the nation of Israel and a future prophetic fulfillment. Zech. 12:10 - "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

In the future, Israel will have to make a choice, follow Christ or the anti-Christ, those that choose Christ will be the 144,000+ and we see them going to safety for a period of 3 1/2 yrs. (Rev. 12:14) In Rev. 12:17, once they are out of his hands, the a/c will turn his attention to the church and that will be the beginning of the end of the GT. Jesus wants there to be a national Israeli presence in the millennium to help re-populate the earth but mainly to keep all the land promises he has made to the nation of Israel but that doesn't mean they will come to Him under any other way than Grace. God keeps His promises. I believe all this is necessary to fulfill other prophecies regarding the "Marriage and the NJ but that's for another post at a future date. So, the summation is that there will be a nation of born again Israeli's during the millennium, part of the church but still a human remnant of Israel.

Without any reference to any posts after this, I think the limit of probation for national Israel is very clear...70 weeks are determined (cut off) for thy people and for the holy city...

 

[brakelite]

do you often wonder why the world at large has not come together in a concerted effort to wipe us out?

It is obvious that God would never permit such an occurrence. Yet we do know, as you say, that we "shall be hated of all nations for My names sake"...and there is a a time when Satan is given his opportunity, but only the deceived will fall for it...the wise shall understand...But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief....
Not all shall be led into this rebellion....

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

For Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[CoreIssue]

As I read through the OT I can't help but notice the incredible unfaithfulness of Israel. From the time of Israels kids to the present day, regardless of the promises and advantages they have had, one has to wonder how many of the millions who were born will finally make it into the kingdom, especially when you consider Isaiah's lament that there shall be only a remnant, and Jesus own declaration that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8:11,12 I think that when Paul said all Israel shall be saved, he was not speaking about any nation, but all the children of the promise. And what more does the gospel offer than children of promise?

Israel went from great faith to apostasy to being set aside for a time to allow for the church, which today has also sunk into great apostasy. But Israel will be back as covenant nation.

At the second coming all of still living Israel will be saved. But one has to remember many of those are the 144,000 protected in Petra for 3 1/2 years. And the bulk of Jews will not even be living in Israel at that time. They will be scattered among the nations but will be gathered to Israel at the second coming.

Two thirds of the Jews living in Israel when the AC invades will die.

So yes, Paul most assuredly was speaking of a nation, the nation of Israel at the second coming.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, they're similar. What does that mean to you?

That it's a current reality. And that per the synonyms of both words an understanding begins to emerge:

"Restrain"- synonyms: confine, constrain, bind, detain, govern, hinder, limit, prevent, restrict, subdue.......etc
"Bound" - constrained, restrained, bent, compelled, driven, foreced, impelled, obliged.....etc

That it's not all encompassing in it's description. If he was fully 'imprisoned' with no ability to work any influence on the world at all, I think bound or restrain, might not be the best words to choose.

 

[Naomi25]

As I read through the OT I can't help but notice the incredible unfaithfulness of Israel. From the time of Israels kids to the present day, regardless of the promises and advantages they have had, one has to wonder how many of the millions who were born will finally make it into the kingdom, especially when you consider Isaiah's lament that there shall be only a remnant, and Jesus own declaration that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matt 8:11,12 I think that when Paul said all Israel shall be saved, he was not speaking about any nation, but all the children of the promise. And what more does the gospel offer than children of promise?

I think this is certainly something to think about, and I think that the huge number of national Jews who have died over the years apart from Christ represent that unfaithfulness. The reason I think Romans 11 speaks of a large scale influx of Jews to Christ at the end (by all means not all of them) is because he deliberately refers to such a phenomenon (if/then) and to Israel specifically as opposed to the Christians gentiles (ie, the Church) whom he is speaking to ("do not become conceited").

 

[Trekson]

That it's a current reality. And that per the synonyms of both words an understanding begins to emerge:

"Restrain"- synonyms: confine, constrain, bind, detain, govern, hinder, limit, prevent, restrict, subdue.......etc
"Bound" - constrained, restrained, bent, compelled, driven, foreced, impelled, obliged.....etc

That it's not all encompassing in it's description. If he was fully 'imprisoned' with no ability to work any influence on the world at all, I think bound or restrain, might not be the best words to choose.

It's a matter of timing. Presently, Satan is only restrained from coming to the earth, not from being able to affect it by all his massive amount of demons. At the end of the 70th week, he is not only bound he is also thrown into a bottomless pit for a thousand years. Two different levels of restraining at two different times.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Isaiah 54:4-7 KJV
[4] Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. [5] For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. [6] For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. [7] For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

Tecarta Bible PremiumThey were his bride. And he divorced them lawfully due to fornication. This in my opinion is why Christ made it clear in NT, you can only put her away due to fornication.

But if her husband be dead she is lawfully free to take another husband.

Good verse, Paul liked it enough to show how we are now one new man;
gal4;
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

We are The Christian Israel of God.