Replacement Theology

[justaname]

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

8]“The Deliverer will come from Zion,

8]He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

8]27 “This is My covenant with them,

8]When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
We need to consider another look at this passage.

Paul is speaking of his kinsmen through the entire context. (cf Romans 9-11) Thereby there is no evidence that Paul switches from a literal view of Israel proper in vs 25 to a spiritual view of Israel in vs 26.

Moving to vs 28 Paul is still speaking of the group of national Israel when he says "they". vs 29 Paul concludes his opinion of God's plan for Israel.

In vs 26 Paul is not stating that every individual that is Israelite will be saved, rather as it was the nation as a whole rejected the Messiah. Paul is stating a day will come where where the nation of Israel will accept the Messiah and the prophesy will be fulfilled.

Another speaking point must deal with the Revelation passages speaking of the 144,000 coming to faith in Jesus. (Revelation 7) All of the people are from the tribes of the nation of Israel. This is not to be seen as a "spiritualization".

Then lets look at the Ezekiel's temple, where God says He will dwell forever.

Ezekiel 43:7
He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,

And also speaking of the temple the Lord said...

18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God, ‘These are the statutes for the altar on the day it is built, to offer burnt offerings on it and to sprinkle blood on it.

19 ‘You shall give to the Levitical priests who are from the offspring of Zadok, who draw near to Me to minister to Me,’ declares the Lord God, ‘a young bull for a sin offering.

20 ‘You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.

21 ‘You shall also take the bull for the sin offering, and it shall be burned in the appointed place of the house, outside the sanctuary.

22 ‘On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering, and they shall cleanse the altar as they cleansed it with the bull.
As it is there is no third temple. What we await is a time where the temple is rebuilt. We are not spiritual Israel, we are the Church. Yes we have Abraham as our father and Christ is his seed. Yes we are Jews inwardly, and true Jews at that. Yet the nation people of Israel are chosen for God's namesake, and will be saved for the sake of the fathers.

Fruchtenbaum concludes, “God, being the covenant-keeper, for His sake, will fulfill His covenants; and part of that covenant promise is the national salvation of Israel.” Hoehner links the timing of Israel’s salvation to the “time of forgiveness” in Zechariah 12:10, when Israel will “look upon [Him] whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him.” There will be an “outpouring of the Spirit of grace and supplication on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” which will take place when Jesus returns to earth.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology (Tustin, CA: Ariel Ministries, 1992), 786.




Harold W. Hoehner, “Israel in Romans 9–11,” in Israel: The Land and the People, 156–57.

cf:http://www.dts.edu/download/publications/bibliotheca/DTS-The%20Future%20of%20National%20Israel.pdf
Some then question the church being in error for so long and dispensational theology coming from the 1800's.

Firstly Stephen from Acts was a dispensationalist. Acts 7

Also reflect that after 70AD Israel as a nation was essentially no more. Do not fault these earlier Christians for failing to see God's mercy for a nation that was no more.

Further many accept the reformation as a necessary cleansing of the Church from bad theology. If it is something needed cleansing then from the allegorical teachings, we might address the view of Israel also.
Then we have this prophesy that is yet to be fulfilled...

16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
Zechariah 14:16-19

Is God speaking of a "spiritual" Israel here also? Perhaps a "spiritual" Egypt also...I think not. I believe this to be an actual event that will happen on the land we know of as Israel, in the city we know of as Jerusalem, after the third temple is erected.

Why offerings and festivals? To point to Christ who will rule through this age.

God keeps His promises. His is not finished with the people He established for His namesake.

Wormwood,

I will say I do find this interesting and will be researching this further...although I do not see this as invalidating my view in either way it is translated.

""And in this way" (ὃυτως) all Israel will be saved. The word houtos is often used to portray the manner in which something is accomplished. "

 

[Phoneman777]

The reason Christ protects Jews in the end times, even though most are not born again is because................of love. it's that simple.

Rom 2:4 NIV Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

Brother, is it God or their nuclear arsenal that protects them?

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

8]“The Deliverer will come from Zion,

8]He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

8]27 “This is My covenant with them,

8]When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
We need to consider another look at this passage.

Paul is speaking of his kinsmen through the entire context. (cf Romans 9-11) Thereby there is no evidence that Paul switches from a literal view of Israel proper in vs 25 to a spiritual view of Israel in vs 26.

Moving to vs 28 Paul is still speaking of the group of national Israel when he says "they". vs 29 Paul concludes his opinion of God's plan for Israel.

In vs 26 Paul is not stating that every individual that is Israelite will be saved, rather as it was the nation as a whole rejected the Messiah. Paul is stating a day will come where where the nation of Israel will accept the Messiah and the prophesy will be fulfilled.

Another speaking point must deal with the Revelation passages speaking of the 144,000 coming to faith in Jesus. (Revelation 7) All of the people are from the tribes of the nation of Israel. This is not to be seen as a "spiritualization".

Then lets look at the Ezekiel's temple, where God says He will dwell forever.

Ezekiel 43:7
He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,

And also speaking of the temple the Lord said...

18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God, ‘These are the statutes for the altar on the day it is built, to offer burnt offerings on it and to sprinkle blood on it.

19 ‘You shall give to the Levitical priests who are from the offspring of Zadok, who draw near to Me to minister to Me,’ declares the Lord God, ‘a young bull for a sin offering.

20 ‘You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.

21 ‘You shall also take the bull for the sin offering, and it shall be burned in the appointed place of the house, outside the sanctuary.

22 ‘On the second day you shall offer a male goat without blemish for a sin offering, and they shall cleanse the altar as they cleansed it with the bull.
As it is there is no third temple. What we await is a time where the temple is rebuilt. We are not spiritual Israel, we are the Church. Yes we have Abraham as our father and Christ is his seed. Yes we are Jews inwardly, and true Jews at that. Yet the nation people of Israel are chosen for God's namesake, and will be saved for the sake of the fathers.

Fruchtenbaum concludes, “God, being the covenant-keeper, for His sake, will fulfill His covenants; and part of that covenant promise is the national salvation of Israel.” Hoehner links the timing of Israel’s salvation to the “time of forgiveness” in Zechariah 12:10, when Israel will “look upon [Him] whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him.” There will be an “outpouring of the Spirit of grace and supplication on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” which will take place when Jesus returns to earth.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology (Tustin, CA: Ariel Ministries, 1992), 786.




Harold W. Hoehner, “Israel in Romans 9–11,” in Israel: The Land and the People, 156–57.

cf:http://www.dts.edu/download/publications/bibliotheca/DTS-The%20Future%20of%20National%20Israel.pdf
Some then question the church being in error for so long and dispensational theology coming from the 1800's.

Firstly Stephen from Acts was a dispensationalist. Acts 7

Also reflect that after 70AD Israel as a nation was essentially no more. Do not fault these earlier Christians for failing to see God's mercy for a nation that was no more.

Further many accept the reformation as a necessary cleansing of the Church from bad theology. If it is something needed cleansing then from the allegorical teachings, we might address the view of Israel also.
Then we have this prophesy that is yet to be fulfilled...

16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
Zechariah 14:16-19

Is God speaking of a "spiritual" Israel here also? Perhaps a "spiritual" Egypt also...I think not. I believe this to be an actual event that will happen on the land we know of as Israel, in the city we know of as Jerusalem, after the third temple is erected.

Why offerings and festivals? To point to Christ who will rule through this age.

God keeps His promises. His is not finished with the people He established for His namesake.

Wormwood,

I will say I do find this interesting and will be researching this further...although I do not see this as invalidating my view in either way it is translated.

""And in this way" (ὃυτως) all Israel will be saved. The word houtos is often used to portray the manner in which something is accomplished. "

The only true Israelites are those who belong to Christ and it is that Israel, not literal Israel, to which end time prophecy pertains.

 

[justaname]

Brother, is it God or their nuclear arsenal that protects them?

The only true Israelites are those who belong to Christ and it is that Israel, not literal Israel, to which end time prophecy pertains.

And your Scriptual evidence as opposed to personal opinion....

 

[Keeth]

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Strange, that those who belevie the above words should be considered replacement theoligists, while those who maintain the separation of Jew and Gentile in and outside of Christ are not. Who is the real replacement theoligist? Is it not those who negate what Christ has done, and rebuild the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile?

 

[justaname]

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Strange, that those who belevie the above words should be considered replacement theoligists, while those who maintain the separation of Jew and Gentile in and outside of Christ are not. Who is the real replacement theoligist? Is it not those who negate what Christ has done, and rebuild the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile?

Classic example of a straw man argument.

 

[Phoneman777]

And your Scriptual evidence as opposed to personal opinion....

God's people are all one in Christ now, as you know, and there is no longer "Jew or Gentile" for the "middle wall of partition has been broken down". Why do you insist on building it back? Israel is now the church of Christ, not a nation of rebels who hate Christ. Yes, all Israel shall be saved because "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs" to the promise of salvation - those who are not Christ's are lost. They were "natural branches" which were broken off and replaced by "wild branches" and the only "natural branches" that remain are those like Paul who accepted Christ.

If we can but see that God's promises to His people throughout the OT and NT are only to those who are Christ's, then we will cease to look to literal Israel for end time prophetic fulfillment and look to Spiritual Israel for that fulfillment.

 

[justaname]

God's people are all one in Christ now, as you know, and there is no longer "Jew or Gentile" for the "middle wall of partition has been broken down". Why do you insist on building it back? Israel is now the church of Christ, not a nation of rebels who hate Christ. Yes, all Israel shall be saved because "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs" to the promise of salvation - those who are not Christ's are lost. They were "natural branches" which were broken off and replaced by "wild branches" and the only "natural branches" that remain are those like Paul who accepted Christ.

If we can but see that God's promises to His people throughout the OT and NT are only to those who are Christ's, then we will cease to look to literal Israel for end time prophetic fulfillment and look to Spiritual Israel for that fulfillment.

Besides building straw men, why not provide Scriptural evidence for your conclusions.

God made a specific covenant with a specific people, the Church is not that people. The Church is under the New Covenant. This is not a dividing wall, it is s Scriptural fact.

 

[Keeth]

Besides building straw men, why not provide Scriptural evidence for your conclusions.

God made a specific covenant with a specific people, the Church is not that people. The Church is under the New Covenant. This is not a dividing wall, it is s Scriptural fact.

It is an easy thing to accuse others of stawman arguments, when you ignore all the scriptures they provide proving their point. Will you address Eph 2:10-20 and tell us what it realy means, that we are getting wrong please? Can you tell me also, what happens to an old covenant, when a new one has been estalished? Can you show us also where scripture depicts a time when there would be two covenants in effect at the same time, and two disticnct covenant peoples of God at the same time? Thank you.

 

[StanJ]

It is an easy thing to accuse others of stawman arguments, when you ignore all the scriptures they provide proving their point. Will you address Eph 2:10-20 and tell us what it realy means, that we are getting wrong please? Can you tell me also, what happens to an old covenant, when a new one has been estalished? Can you show us also where scripture depicts a time when there would be two covenants in effect at the same time, and two disticnct covenant peoples of God at the same time? Thank you.

IMO, making onerous posts with nothing more than a huge copy & paste job of scripture with NO exegesis whatsoever, doesn't prove anything.
I would suggest you carefully read Romans 11 to see that both Jews and Gentiles are grafted into the same tree, so Israel is NOT replaced, but, individuals who refuse to believe are BROKEN OFF.

 

[ATP]

Brother, is it God or their nuclear arsenal that protects them?

Repentance and nuclear arsenal are two separate topics.

 

[Wormwood]

For the record, I don't think Romans 11 is referring to "spiritual Israel." I just don't think Paul is speaking of the future salvation of the entire nation. See my previous comment on those texts.

 

[justaname]

For the record, I don't think Romans 11 is referring to "spiritual Israel." I just don't think Paul is speaking of the future salvation of the entire nation. See my previous comment on those texts.

I do understand your argument as presented, and again I find it compelling exegetically. Yet this still does not settle the issue entirely for me. Also for the record Paul may be presenting a type of "spiritual Israel" allegorically or through implication in other passages, yet my studies have yet to convince me as such as supplanting Israel with the Church. I do see both as separate entities presented Scripturally both in the Old and New Testaments. Perhaps to explain better my convictions lay as a progressive dispensationalist (of course without strict constraint of any formal definition). Without question though this would be a far cry from looking into the OT Scriptures and supplanting Israel with Church.

It is an easy thing to accuse others of stawman arguments, when you ignore all the scriptures they provide proving their point. Will you address Eph 2:10-20 and tell us what it realy means, that we are getting wrong please? Can you tell me also, what happens to an old covenant, when a new one has been estalished? Can you show us also where scripture depicts a time when there would be two covenants in effect at the same time, and two disticnct covenant peoples of God at the same time? Thank you.

Briefly I can say I do not see a distinction between Jew and Gentile in Christ as the Ephesians passage states; the Old Covenant is obsolete and ready to vanish (Hebrews 8:13), and that which is ready to vanish is yet to vanish else it would be described as vanished (past tense). This is also explained beautifully in 2 Corinthians pertaining to the Old Covenant and the Law (which includes all 613 mitzvot).

2 Corinthians 3:13-18
and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

 

[StanJ]

For the record, I don't think Romans 11 is referring to "spiritual Israel." I just don't think Paul is speaking of the future salvation of the entire nation. See my previous comment on those texts.

I wasn't inferring it was. IMO it refers to the flock of ALL lost sheep. Both Jew and Gentile. The NC allows Gentiles to be grafted into the root, but it also allows original branches to be broken off. There is no replacement, just addition or subtraction based on belief and acceptance of Je

 

[Keeth]

IMO, making onerous posts with nothing more than a huge copy & paste job of scripture with NO exegesis whatsoever, doesn't prove anything.
I would suggest you carefully read Romans 11 to see that both Jews and Gentiles are grafted into the same tree, so Israel is NOT replaced, but, individuals who refuse to believe are BROKEN OFF.

Baloney! Showing that scripture gives the church of Christ during the new covenant the same attributes as the nation of Israel during the old covenant means quite a lot, even if you choose to ignore it. What do you expect people to do, put their bible next to their computer and type scriptures, when they can copy and paste them from thier computer bibles? Or are you saying the scriptures themselves have no value? As you yourself have stated above, individuals who refuse to belevie are BROKEN OFF. Those of literal Israel that refuse to beleive are no longer part of the tree, this is not rocket science.

Jer 11:15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest. 16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. 17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal. 18 ¶ And the LORD hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it: then thou shewedst me their doings. 19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered. 20 But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.

The olive tree and the vine are Christ. Those Jews who rejected thier redeemer were branches that were broken off the tree. So also all Israel that still reject Christ as thier Messiah remain broken off to this day. They can only be graffed back in if they remain not in unbeleif. Those Jews who accepted Christ and began what is called today the Christian Church were the remnant of Israel and the true Israel of God, not those who rejected thier Messiah. Through the true and spiritual Israel of God, of which Christ is the head, the beleiveing Gentiles have been graffed in, while the non beleiveing Jews were and are broken off. There is no in between, and there are no people of God outside of Christ.

 

[justaname]

To elaborate a bit more on the Romans passage. Paul states a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Unless you believe Paul is speaking of a hardening of the Church you must agree he is speaking of national Israel, conceding that when the authors of the Bible speak of Israel not every time are they referring to the Church. This being stated we know the Church did not start until Pentecost. Thereby none of the OT writers would ever refer to Israel other than God's chosen OT people.

My estimation is when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, the hardening of Israel will be lifted. This is when national Israel will “look upon [Him] whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him.” There will be an “outpouring of the Spirit of grace and supplication on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” which will take place when Jesus returns to earth.

This including the 144,000 in Revelation 7 is a partial summation of God's plan for Israel.

For those who believe God has no plan for national Israel, please give me what you believe the text is speaking of here...cf Romans 11:25
More specifically why is it referred to as a "partial hardening until..."

 

[StanJ]

Baloney! Showing that scripture gives the church of Christ during the new covenant the same attributes as the nation of Israel during the old covenant means quite a lot, even if you choose to ignore it. What do you expect people to do, put their bible next to their computer and type scriptures, when they can copy and paste them from thier computer bibles? Or are you saying the scriptures themselves have no value? As you yourself have stated above, individuals who refuse to belevie are BROKEN OFF. Those of literal Israel that refuse to beleive are no longer part of the tree, this is not rocket science.

Jer 11:15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest. 16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. 17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal. 18 ¶ And the LORD hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it: then thou shewedst me their doings. 19 But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered. 20 But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.

The olive tree and the vine are Christ. Those Jews who rejected thier redeemer were branches that were broken off the tree. So also all Israel that still reject Christ as thier Messiah remain broken off to this day. They can only be graffed back in if they remain not in unbeleif. Those Jews who accepted Christ and began what is called today the Christian Church were the remnant of Israel and the true Israel of God, not those who rejected thier Messiah. Through the true and spiritual Israel of God, of which Christ is the head, the beleiveing Gentiles have been graffed in, while the non beleiveing Jews were and are broken off. There is no in between, and there are no people of God outside of Christ.

No it's fact, and you're now agreeing with me here...I think?

This is indeed what Paul does teach in Rom 11. Not a replacement church but NEW branches into the same root which is Jesus. The vine is Christ, and ALL the branches are the NC church.

Maybe you should have just made your original post this concise?

To elaborate a bit more on the Romans passage. Paul states a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Unless you believe Paul is speaking of a hardening of the Church you must agree he is speaking of national Israel, conceding that when the authors of the Bible speak of Israel not every time are they referring to the Church. This being stated we know the Church did not start until Pentecost. Thereby none of the OT writers would ever refer to Israel other than God's chosen OT people.

My estimation is when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, the hardening of Israel will be lifted. This is when national Israel will “look upon [Him] whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him.” There will be an “outpouring of the Spirit of grace and supplication on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem,” which will take place when Jesus returns to earth.

This including the 144,000 in Revelation 7 is a partial summation of God's plan for Israel.

For those who believe God has no plan for national Israel, please give me what you believe the text is speaking of here...cf Romans 11:25
More specifically why is it referred to as a "partial hardening until..."

The 144,000 is part of His plan. They will be evangelists during the tribulation to reach ALL the lost tribes of Israel with the Good News. The partial hardening had more to do with the teachers and leaders of the OC, that it had to do with the people of Israel.

 

[justaname]

No it's fact, and you're now agreeing with me here...I think?

This is indeed what Paul does teach in Rom 11. Not a replacement church but NEW branches into the same root which is Jesus. The vine is Christ, and ALL the branches are the NC church.

Maybe you should have just made your original post this concise?

The 144,000 is part of His plan. They will be evangelists during the tribulation to reach ALL the lost tribes of Israel with the Good News. The partial hardening had more to do with the teachers and leaders of the OC, that it had to do with the people of Israel.

Can you expand on this idea Stan? I am uncertain if I fully understand what you are conveying.

 

[StanJ]

Can you expand on this idea Stan? I am uncertain if I fully understand what you are conveying.

As I mentioned a few things here you'll have to be a tad more specific.

 

[justaname]

As to the evangelists....do you see them as from the tribes literally?

What do you mean the partial hardening happened to the leaders? What will happen when the fullness of the Gentiles come in?

 

[StanJ]

Well Rev 7 and 14 says they are, so yes I do.

Just as I said, it was the leaders/teachers/Pharisees that were hardened towards Jesus and His message. Many of the common folk accepted his message and repented. It usually is that way even today, when people start to come out of cults and false doctrines, the leadership is always the last.
Can anything good come out of Nazareth? John 1:46 Not knowing the truth in scriptures is always the reason for fallacious doctrine.