Replacement Theology

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brakelite

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I'm not exactly sure how you see this must mean a different 'condition' that they are saved under. Why must 'National Israel'....a great number of ethnic Jews, not be allowed to find Jesus in a similar manner to we have?
There is no reason why Jews cannot be saved in Jesus Christ...in fact, it is the only way. However, if you make some inquiries around some forums and churches, you will find, particularly among dispensational minded folk, a belief that in the last days Israel will be saved under a different covenant. I have not discussed this with them...never did want to go down that burrow. They believe the promise of Jeremiah quoted in Hebrews 8:10 is for national Israel. A different covenant. I don't accept that.
 

Truth7t7

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There is no reason why Jews cannot be saved in Jesus Christ...in fact, it is the only way. However, if you make some inquiries around some forums and churches, you will find, particularly among dispensational minded folk, a belief that in the last days Israel will be saved under a different covenant. I have not discussed this with them...never did want to go down that burrow. They believe the promise of Jeremiah quoted in Hebrews 8:10 is for national Israel. A different covenant. I don't accept that.
That's correct Brake, many in dispensationalism teach the "Two Peoples" of God doctrine, John Hagee is a front runner today, Christian Zionism.

John Hagee Heresy

"Jesus Didn't Come To Earth To Be The Messiah"?
 

Triumph1300

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There is no reason why Jews cannot be saved in Jesus Christ...

That's right.
Jews need to be saved, just like every other human being on the face of the earth.
They need to be born again, just like everybody else.
If they are not born again, they will be lost just like muslims and all other religions who are rejecting Christ.
There's only one way to the Father and that's through Jesus Christ.

Praise God, I know many born again Jewish people.
 
B

brakelite

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There are some scriptures that tend to be overlooked in this discussion, particularly by the pro-Israel camp. According to the Bible Jesus visited the temple several times, twice He made a scene by throwing the money-changers out. In John 2:13,14 Jesus called the temple His Father's house. Later, in Matthew 21:12,13 when He repeated the process, Jesus called the temple "My house". After being challenged as to His authority, despite having absolutely proved His authority by the many miracles He had done in that very temple, before leaving the temple for the last time, taught a parable concerning a wicked husbandman. Verse 40 Jesus asks the listeners, "When the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those wicked husbandmen? " Now remember the story? After sending servants (prophets) to bring the boss fruit, the Boss sends His Son. They kill Him. After the hearers of this parable condemn themselves, Jesus says, "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof".
But this wasn't the end of the debate. They continue to bait Him. They continue to challenge His right to teach. They continue to abuse and disrespect Him. They continue to plot on how to trap Him in His talk, and to kill Him. Matthew 23 brings us the condemnation of Christ upon upon those hypocrites. And in verses 34-37 Jesus prophesies of their continuing stubbornness in their future actions against the church, revealing that God is willing to give them a little more time to repent, (fulfilling the 490 years/70 weeks of Daniel 9 due to expire in 3 and 1/2 years) saying, "wherefore behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; and some ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city..."
Then no doubt with tears in His eyes, He cries for the Jerusalem He loves, "how often would I have gathered thy children even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not. Your house is left unto you desolate".

He declared "your house is left unto you desolate". Matthew 23:38. At first it was the Father's house. Then My house. Now, after constant refusal to acknowledge the authority so lovingly and persistently displayed, the Son of God leaves the temple for the last time. Not His any more, nothing but an empty desolate shell of a house belonging to a nation no longer chosen.
 

Truth7t7

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Then no doubt with tears in His eyes, He cries for the Jerusalem He loves, "how often would I have gathered thy children even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not. Your house is left unto you desolate".

He declared "your house is left unto you desolate". Matthew 23:38. At first it was the Father's house. Then My house. Now, after constant refusal to acknowledge the authority so lovingly and persistently displayed, the Son of God leaves the temple for the last time. Not His any more, nothing but an empty desolate shell of a house belonging to a nation no longer chosen.
How dare you say such a thing, Jews are God's Chosen, the apple of his eye, it appears your antisemitic?

However you are 100% correct in your claim, the Christian Zionist don't want to face this biblical truth, with cries of "Antisemitism".

Excellent post of truth!
 
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Truth

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@brakelite I do agree with everything you've written! I just think it doesn't exclude who 'National' Israel is...or more importantly, who they can come to be. This is why I differentiate between 'national' and 'true'. Paul helps us make that distinction. 'National' being those, now, who are Jews, yes, but do not believe in Jesus as Messiah. 'True' Israel, is, as you say, those who are in Christ...the elect of God.
The reason I believe God has a future for 'national' Israel is because of Romans 11:

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”


Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!


13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.


17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved

It seems clear to me that Paul foresees a future where God will 'graft' back onto the olive tree many Jews, bringing them to a saving faith in Christ. There will come a point where "the time of the gentiles will be fulfilled", and our purpose of provoking the Jews to jealousy will be complete, and God will bring many of 'national' Israel back into being 'true' Israel.

How do you Provoke A Jew to Jealousy? Please Tell Me, The First Chosen People of God, What Can We Do to Make Them Jealous of US.
How have we Provoked the Jews to jealousy at this point in time, where is there any evidence of them being Jealous.
And how do you interpret, [ Until the Fullness of the Gentile's be Fulfilled ]
How do you interpret that we are Grafted into the Root and Fatness of Israel, and we have become Joint Heirs to the Commonwealth of Israel, Are we A Replacement, or Are we an Addition??
 

charity

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Hi Charity!
Thanks for your post.
I can't remember if in the OP I said that I'm actually an Amil or not...but I am...sort of. So...surprise! And, actually, I'm not the only Amil I know who sees a future for national Israel.
I think that within the Amil camp there are two sorts...those who lean more towards the Preterist side of things....those who would be more into 'no future for Israel', and then those who see more future fulfillment ahead as well the other stuff.

And I agree, I think we must allow that scripture does also speak about the promise in terms of descendants (plural) other than just Christ. Of course Christ is the ultimate, but we know that scripture is always doing that...foreshadow, then the ultimate.

Amillennialism is the name given to the belief that there will not be a literal 1000-year reign of Christ.
The people who hold to this belief are called amillennialists.

Hello @Naomi25,

I have had to look up the meaning of Amillennialist, :) and found the definition above. In the light of this, I can say with certainty that I am not Amillennialist.

'And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years, '

(Rev.20:2)

'And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(Rev.20:4)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with Him a thousand years.'

(Rev.20:6)

* The reign of Christ extends far beyond the 1,000 years, these years are significant because the Overcomers with reign with Him for that duration of time.

* The promises of God are without repentance, and will be fulfilled (Rom.11:29). Promises were made to Abraham and his descendants, and will be fulfilled, regarding the land and it's occupancy, which will necessitate resurrection.

May you be filled with all joy in believing.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Truth7t7

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Hello @Naomi25,

I have had to look up the meaning of Amillennialist, :) and found the definition above. In the light of this, I can say with certainty that I am not Amillennialist.

'And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years, '

(Rev.20:2)

'And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(Rev.20:4)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with Him a thousand years.'

(Rev.20:6)

* The reign of Christ extends far beyond the 1,000 years, these years are significant because the Overcomers with reign with Him for that duration of time.

* The promises of God are without repentance, and will be fulfilled (Rom.11:29). Promises were made to Abraham and his descendants, and will be fulfilled, regarding the land and it's occupancy, which will necessitate resurrection.

May you be filled with all joy in believing.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
As far as a future Literal 1000 year millennium on this earth, no such thing in the holy bible.

When Jesus returns, it will be in fire and "Final Judgment", dissolvong this earth by his fire, 2 Peter 3:10, Malachi 3:2, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Luke 17:29-30, Nahum 1:5, 1 Corinthians 3:13

Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% in the Lords spiritual realm, with spiritual beings, there is no physical earthly kingdom seen or represented whatsoever.

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, 100% spiritual world, no literal earthly kingdom is seen.

Revelation 20 KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Many are taught that Matthew 25:31-46 sheep/goat judgment takes place to judge those worthy to enter a millennial kingdom on this earth?

"False", as this is the "Final Judgment"
As verse 41 shows the wicked are judged to the "eternal lake of fire", and verse 46 shows the righteous obtain "eternal life".

"The Eternal Life Kingdom"

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 
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Naomi25

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You fail to see the "Remnant Church"

Elected to Salvation In Jesus Christ, By Forknowledge "Church"

Naomi verse (7) is a very clear example, you see Ethnic National Israel Does Not Obtain, And The Elect Jew/Church Does Obtain, Simple, Very Clear.

Romans 11:1-5KJV
11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then?
Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Yes, I agree that is what it means...that the 'elect' (whoever fits in that category...both elect Jew and elect Gentile) has obtained it.
But that is not the end of the passage, is it? Verse 7 is speaking about 'now'...in terms of Paul, who is writing it. But then he also looks to the future.
We probably won't see eye to eye on this...that's okay. I could well be wrong. And it's not essential. But, it's how I read it, and as Paul finishes off the passages by breaking out in worship, it does strike me as wondrous...after everything, God bringing his "chosen people" to belief in Jesus their Messiah. Perhaps I'm just a romantic!
 

Naomi25

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Thats Romans 11:15 , its implying that when the blindness is removed from those Jews who rejected Christ... And they are grafted back in.... Reserection! New heavens, new earth! Eternity here we come!
Alleluia!
Absolutely! That is how I see it as well, and why I think it must be an 'end times' event. When, "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". I think, perhaps, that it all could happen quite suddenly.
 
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Naomi25

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Hello @Naomi25,

I have had to look up the meaning of Amillennialist, :) and found the definition above. In the light of this, I can say with certainty that I am not Amillennialist.

'And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan,
and bound him a thousand years, '

(Rev.20:2)

'And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(Rev.20:4)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with Him a thousand years.'

(Rev.20:6)

* The reign of Christ extends far beyond the 1,000 years, these years are significant because the Overcomers with reign with Him for that duration of time.

* The promises of God are without repentance, and will be fulfilled (Rom.11:29). Promises were made to Abraham and his descendants, and will be fulfilled, regarding the land and it's occupancy, which will necessitate resurrection.

May you be filled with all joy in believing.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Ah...! Don't believe every definition of Amillennialist out there! We do believe in a Millennium, just not one that is, well, strictly 1000 years long, or physically upon this earth.
How do we get that? Many people get squirrel-y because they see this as "spiritualizing", but, it's not really. In Revelation we see time and time again that numbers are used symbolically. 4 is for the 4 corners of the world (the whole world). 7 is the number of completion or perfection (7 days of creation. The Lamb has seven eyes and seven horns to symbolize his absolute power and knowledge. The scroll has seven seals because it holds the definitive judgements of God, and there are seven 'churches', symbolized by seven stars and seven lamp stands. While they are also seven actual Churches, they also symbolize all churches throughout history...the church as a whole.)
Ten also means completeness, but while 7 is usually meant in a heavenly or Godly way, 10 is often used to express completeness in the human dimension. God gave 10 commandments, in Job he accuses his friends of having 'reproached me ten times' while we read of only five occasions they came to him. He is saying that he has been reproached as many times as a human can bear. In Daniel we also see ten expressing what is complete or ultimate in human experience in his vision of the four beasts. The last beast, representing the supreme empire, has ten horns. And this is echoed in Revelation with Johns description of the dragon.
Basically, Amillennialist argue that when numbers are so often used symbolically in Revelation, we must consider carefully how we read the 1000 years. We hold that 1000 (being a multiple of 10) is just a way of saying that the time between Christ's first and second advents...a time of completion will be fulfilled, and God's plan will be complete.
There is little argument that scripture says that even now Jesus sits on a Throne, ruling and reigning. And beyond that...well...it sort of becomes details! Details like, do we see the bible describing Christ return as the same event as the judgement of the just and unjust, the Rapture (giving of our new bodies) and the renewal of all things? When you take away the expectation of all these comings and goings that have to happen, then the return of Christ is actually painted quite simply in the bible. A single event that will shake the world.
But...again...that's just my take. And, I do have to say, I don't agree with all Amil's. Some would say there is to be tribulation at the end, some deny even that. Some would point to prophecies yet to be fulfilled, others see them all over and done with. It's a spectrum!
Won't it be interesting to see who got it right? And thank goodness this isn't a Salvation issue!!
 

Naomi25

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There is no reason why Jews cannot be saved in Jesus Christ...in fact, it is the only way. However, if you make some inquiries around some forums and churches, you will find, particularly among dispensational minded folk, a belief that in the last days Israel will be saved under a different covenant. I have not discussed this with them...never did want to go down that burrow. They believe the promise of Jeremiah quoted in Hebrews 8:10 is for national Israel. A different covenant. I don't accept that.

Yeah, see, I'm still fuzzy on that myself. Because I think you are sort of right. They see it as a separate "program" to us. But then...they say that the Jews must come to Jesus. So, I don't really follow that completely.
Perhaps what they are saying is that once they come to Jesus, that Jesus stands as a clear "king" in a Jewish system still. While for us Gentiles, he will always just be our Saviour, fellow heir to grace. I don't know. I'd say that's wrong...if that's what they think...there is no suggestion anywhere that there will be 2...only one in Christ. But, I'm not sure.
 
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Truth7t7

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Paul finishes off the passages by breaking out in worship, it does strike me as wondrous...after everything, God bringing his "chosen people" to belief in Jesus their Messiah. Perhaps I'm just a romantic!
"Jews Chosen People"?

You Espouse The False Doctrine Of The "Two Peoples Of God" Zionism.

Jews are no more "Chosen" than the saved "Russian" American" "Mexican" "African" Etc.

Romans 11 clearly shows that God predestinated some Jews the "Remnant" to be saved, and added to the Church.

The Jews that are blinded, and don't find salvation, go to the same lake of fire with the rest of the world.

In Romans chapter 8 below God shows that all believers were predestinated, called, and chosen to be the "Elect Church".

"Two Peoples Of God" is a false Zionist teaching, God is no respector of person.

Romans 2:11KJV
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 2:9-10KJV
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

God has predestinated people from all races and Nations to become elect, and his chosen Church.

Romans 8:28-33KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
 
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Truth7t7

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Absolutely! That is how I see it as well, and why I think it must be an 'end times' event. When, "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in". I think, perhaps, that it all could happen quite suddenly.
The fulfilling of the gentiles is a 42 month period during the future tribulation, when Jerusalem is over run by the worlds armies,nations

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 
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brakelite

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The fulfilling of the gentiles is a 42 month period during the future tribulation, when Jerusalem is over run by the worlds armies,nations

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
you don't accept the dispensational view of national Israel, yet you buy into their theory re the last day Armageddon. You I am sure recognise Babylon as being a global spiritual entity, and Israel the same, yet believe national Israel and Jerusalem to be the target and focus of Satan to destroy? Jesus said of his church, you will be hated OF ALL NATIONS FOR MY NAMES SAKE. The crisis of the last days is not about Jerusalem. It's about the church. The focus of Satan's attention is not Jerusalem. It's the church. The world's hatred in the final days will not be against Israel, as Israel will join with Babylon along with everyone else. The worlds hatred will be directed toward the only minority remnant people of God who refuse the mark of the beast... Who refuse to surrender their right to freedom of conscience... Who refuse to bow their knees to Baal.
To be continued....
 
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brakelite

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My church has been vilified for its interpretation of scripture regarding prophecy, in particular the day/year principle where for every prophetic day, one year is meant. This principle is found to be most accurate in several places, the most profound as you would be aware being Daniel 9:24 which speaks of the 70 'weeks', which is meant as 490 years. But another equally accurate number is found also in Daniel, as well as Revelation. The 1260 days...42 months...times, time, and half a time.

This has two distinct applications, being the same time period, for two separate peoples. The oppressor, (Daniel 7:25; Revel.13:5; ) and the oppressed. (Revel. 11:3; 12:6,14). So what has this to do with the topic currently under discussion?

Papal Primacy
The real issue involved with the prophetic 1260 years and the topic under present discussion is papal primacy. It is the mother of harlots ruling the planet.

Papal Primacy is what the Papacy wants. She wants back what she had during those 1260 years, from 538ad 1798ad.

What is Papal Primacy?
First Papal Primacy is not:
Popularity
It is not being the top civil or political leader in a country.
It is not even whether everyone always accepts that primacy or not

Papal Primacy during the 1260 years was being recognized BY LAW, to be the supreme teaching authority. It was recognizing that the papacy had the legal right to persecute and eradicate all whom she defined as heritics. Papal power resided in her stance of having the very keys over who would enjoy eternal life, or suffer the wrath of God. A faulty application of Matt. 16:19's "bind and loose" was used to give the papacy power to intimidate even powerful kings into obedience in executing their agendas.

The issue isn't whether people liked it or not-- many didn't. The issue isn't whether the papacy suffered weak points during those years. We know there were even times when there were several "popes" fighting for the position and calling one another antichrist whilst doing so. they were of course all correct.
The issue is an entire era, covering 1260 years when papal primacy was established by law. This is highly significant when considering Revelation 13 and a future ecumenical global religion enforcing, by law, her dogmas and doctrines, even under pain of death. The 1260 years past, beginning with Justinian's code of law, and ending with Napoleon's code of law. 538AD to 1798AD. 1260 years. 42 months X30=1260... Years.

The issue is papal primacy and the authority to enforce that primacy by civil law and with the use of civil power. The papacy is not satisfied to be "one of the body" of Christian churches. NO, NO, NEVER!

She must be the leader, and controller---
THROUGH LEGISLATION
AND SHE HAS MADE THIS VERY PLAIN

In an official four page "note" after the release of the Vatican Declaration Dominus Deus which reaffirmed the Papal position of Primacy by Pope John Paul II, the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, (later Pope Benedict 16th) who was the "Prefect" of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith (Note: that means he was head of the re-established and renamed Office of the Inquisition) stated:

"when the expression 'sister churches' is used in the proper sense, the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Universal Church is not (meant to be) sister but MOTHER of all particular churches. This is not merely a question of terminology, but above all of respecting a basic truth of the Catholic faith: that of the unicity of the Church of Jesus Christ."


Rev. 17 jumps to mind--
Mystery Babylon, the mother.....
This is the primacy that led to the 1260 years of papal persecution, when that primacy using the power of the state (the kings) to force people into compliance.

Otto Gierke, speaking of Pope Gregory VII (Pope from 1073-1085)
writes in "Political Theories of the Middle Ages", p.11-12


"If mankind be only one, and if there can be but one State that comprises all mankind, that State can be no other than the Church that God Himself has founded, and all temporal lordship can be valid only in so far as it is part and parcel of the Church. Therefore the Church, being the one true State, has received by a mandate from God the plenitude of all spiritual and temporal powers, they being integral parts of One Might. The Head of this all embracing State is Christ. BUT, as the Unity of Mankind is to be realized already in this world, His celestial kingship must have a terrestrial presentment. As Christ's Vice-Regent, the earthly Head of the Church is the one and only Head of all Mankind. The Pope is the wielder of what is in principle an Empire (principatus) over the Community of Mortals. He is their Priest and their King; their spiritual and temporal Monarch; their Lawgiver and judge in all causes supreme.

Gregory VII (Pope from 1073-1085) was probably the first pope to claim UNIVERSAL jurisdiction, he issued his Dictatus Papae, containing twenty-seven propositions about the powers of the pope, which declared he was over kings and emperors. ( See "Lives of the Popes, by Richard McBrien, page 186 ) But we see popes crowning and anointing kings and emperors well before that time. Stephen IV anointed and crowned Louis as successor to Charlemagne in 816. Leo III was the pope who crowned Charlemagne.
As early as 492 Pope Gelasius claimed the title "Vicar of Christ".
According to Richard McBrien in "Lives of the Popes" p. 80-81 Gelasius I, (pope from 492-496) Wrote a series of letters which read more like legal briefs in defence of papal primacy by appealing to the theory of "two powers" or "two swords" (the spiritual and the temporal) each power has its own sphere BUT the spiritual power is superior to the temporal.

Even earlier, Pope Leo the Great (r. 440-461) was promoting the right to primacy and asserting that Peter, above all the disciples was given this right.

In a letter to the Bishop of Vienna (according "The Faith of the Early Fathers" (FEF), 3 volumes, Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1970, vol. 3, p. 269 . Pope Leo wrote:


"Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed Apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be pre-eminent over the others . . . the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head." (Quote also found in Tract: The Authority of the Pope: Part II, Catholic Answers)
So early on we see the papal authority asserting it's sovereignty over spiritual power, of which it claimed to be the head. The civil leaders were merely the police department of the Church to be used to further it's aims. With the fall of the western Roman Empire, the church took over the vacated prerogatives of that position. The introduction into law Justinian's code in 533AD and its establishment of Justinian's law in Rome in 538 legally declared the Pope as the "head of all churches". Napoleon's law written in 1793 and enacted in Rome 1798, reversed this.

However, the Lateran Treaty in 1929 saw the Pope reinstated as a civil ruler. The wound was healed. Revelation reveals the beast will be granted, for a short time, global dominion, which will afford him the opportunity to legislate and enforce one particular doctrine he favours above all others. See Revelation 13:11-16;
KJV Revelation 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
KJV Revelation 17
Babylon the Great
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
KJV Revelation 19
Ever since 508ad when Clovis, the king of the Franks converted to Catholicism, the papacy had used state armies...the kings of the earth... As her muscle. They are the temporal sword that she boasts of and controls. When Catholics on this forum claim the church has not killed anyone, they are correct. But she is as guilty as any state dictator for all died under her overall management.
And so it will be in these last hours of Earth's history. Israel is just a distraction. The real action will originate on the Vatican. And in the copy of that medieval church state union which is developing on the United States. As the Protestant churches unite with the state to implement religious doctrine by law, just as the papacy did throughout her history, (image to the beast) the US will be led to persecute those who refuse the mark and refuse to bow to the first beast... The papacy.

The above is the true nature of who and what the Catholic church is. It is a marriage... An adulterous marriage... Between the kings of the earth and the church. This is what makes her so powerful. No spiritual power, but civil legislative power to enforce religious laws. This is why she is so dangerous. It is her nature.
 
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Truth7t7

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you don't accept the dispensational view of national Israel, yet you buy into their theory re the last day Armageddon. You I am sure recognise Babylon as being a global spiritual entity, and Israel the same, yet believe national Israel and Jerusalem to be the target and focus of Satan to destroy? Jesus said of his church, you will be hated OF ALL NATIONS FOR MY NAMES SAKE. The crisis of the last days is not about Jerusalem. It's about the church. The focus of Satan's attention is not Jerusalem. It's the church. The world's hatred in the final days will not be against Israel, as Israel will join with Babylon along with everyone else. The worlds hatred will be directed toward the only minority remnant people of God who refuse the mark of the beast... Who refuse to surrender their right to freedom of conscience... Who refuse to bow their knees to Baal.
To be continued....
Your quick to guess wrong, slow down cowboy.

Jerusalem Is Mystery Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots!

Jerusalem Is Guilty Of All The Earths Blood, And That Of The Prophets, As Rev 18:24 States, Rome Didn't Exist To Be Guilty Of The Prophets Blood

Revelation 18:24King James Version (KJV)
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Matthew 23:30-37King James Version (KJV)
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem Is The "Great City" Where The Lord Was Crucified

Revelation 11:8KJV
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 14:8KJV
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.


Revelation 17:18KJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Revelation 18:10KJV
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.


Ezekiel 16:15-16King James Version (KJV)
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.
16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

Jerusalem Is Built Upon Seven Hills/Mountains, Just As Rome


Revelation 17:9King James Version (KJV)
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.



The Seven Hills Of Jerusalem, By Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D.

the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an 8th century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills"(recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify.

If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives:The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],
The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two],
The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13).
On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name),
The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],
To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],
And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion."

Wikipedia: Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade

The Jerusalem gay pride parade is an annual pride parade taking place in Jerusalem. Since the first March for Pride and Tolerance in 2002, Jerusalem Pride—"Love Without Border"—has become an established event in Jerusalem, each year bringing in additional partners and supporters.

Since the 1990s an annual gay pride parade takes place in Tel Aviv, Israel and sometimes also in Eilat. Tel Aviv had previously been the venue for the only yearly gay pride parade in the Middle East.[citation needed] Tel Aviv was first city in Israel to have a gay pride parade, which started in the street of Shenkin and expanded to large-scale events in the following years. In 2005, 100,000 people participated in the Tel Aviv gay pride parade.
Jerusalem Is Mystery Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots Revelation Chapters 17-18

Truth7t7
 

Naomi25

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"Jews Chosen People"?

You Espouse The False Doctrine Of The "Two Peoples Of God" Zionism.

Jews are no more "Chosen" than the saved "Russian" American" "Mexican" "African" Etc.

Romans 11 clearly shows that God predestinated some Jews the "Remnant" to be saved, and added to the Church.

The Jews that are blinded, and don't find salvation, go to the same lake of fire with the rest of the world.

In Romans chapter 8 below God shows that all believers were predestinated, called, and chosen to be the "Elect Church".

"Two Peoples Of God" is a false Zionist teaching, God is no respector of person.

Romans 2:11KJV
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 2:9-10KJV
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

God has predestinated people from all races and Nations to become elect, and his chosen Church.

Romans 8:28-33KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The fulfilling of the gentiles is a 42 month period during the future tribulation, when Jerusalem is over run by the worlds armies,nations

Take a deep breath. I used the phrase 'chosen people of God' as a badge of who they used to be under the old Covenant. That's why it would be so glorious, such a wondrous ending, for them to come back.
I do not, in fact, see 2 peoples of God. National Israel, presently, are not God's chosen people. That is the elect...the Church...which is made up of every nation, tongue and tribe.

Revelation 11:2KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Maybe. But not everyone understands it that way.
 
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Naomi25

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"Jews Chosen People"?

You Espouse The False Doctrine Of The "Two Peoples Of God" Zionism.

Jews are no more "Chosen" than the saved "Russian" American" "Mexican" "African" Etc.

Romans 11 clearly shows that God predestinated some Jews the "Remnant" to be saved, and added to the Church.

The Jews that are blinded, and don't find salvation, go to the same lake of fire with the rest of the world.

In Romans chapter 8 below God shows that all believers were predestinated, called, and chosen to be the "Elect Church".

"Two Peoples Of God" is a false Zionist teaching, God is no respector of person.

Romans 2:11KJV
For there is no respect of persons with God.

James 2:9-10KJV
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

God has predestinated people from all races and Nations to become elect, and his chosen Church.

Romans 8:28-33KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Huh...I just saw that I quoted this before, but the answer I typed didn't come up. Not sure what happened!
Anyway, just wanted to assure you, that I don't actually see two separate "chosen people's of God". Not at all. The Jews were, in the OT, and my reference to them were in honor of that, really. In hope that one day they may return to God in the manner he wants them to...through Jesus.
The current, and only, "chosen people of God", is the elect...or, the Church, I suppose. Which is made up of every nation and tongue. Jews and Gentiles...anyone who comes to Christ.
Hope that makes my position a little clearer!
 
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Ac28

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About 1955 years ago, Israel, in God's eyes, ceased to exist as a nation and ceased to be God's chosen people, when, from their failure to accept Christ, they were rendered blind and deaf by the very inspired apostle Paul, quoting the curse of Isa 6:9-10, for the 7th and last time in scripture, in Acts 28:25-28. Then, in vs 28, the Salvation of God was passed from Israel to the Gentiles. Since then, every person comes to God as an individual. From Gen 12 thru Acts, about a 2000 year period, Israel were the chosen people, and the Gentiles had absolutely no blessings, at all. Even as late as Acts 20, they had nothing - see Romans 9:4. If they wanted any blessings at all, from God, they had to become proselytes.

At the end of Acts, everything switched 180 degrees. Now, the Gentiles are the chosen people, as in Eph 1:4. Our Gentile period has nearly run its course. Assuming the present Gentile period lasts the same 2000 years, ir should be over in about 45 years.

When it is over, the all-Gentile church of today, which is found ONLY in Paul's 7 books written AFTER ACTS, will be resurrected directly far above all Heavens to appear with Christ. This is unlike the Jewish rapture, where Christ will return to earth, the Acts saints will meet Him in the air, and then will return with Him to the earth - no fabricated tales of Christ taking all these people to Heaven. Also, everything in Paul's last 7 books were hid in God since the world began and nary a hint of it was revealed to anyone until Paul revealed it after Ac 28:28. It is called THE MYSTERY. Here's a passage from Colossians.
Col 3:1-4
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The reason Christ has never returned is because He said He wouldn't return until Israel accepted Him as a nation. Of course, since Israel doesn't exist today and won't for another 45 years, the old saw about Christ could return at any moment, must be wrong
Mt 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Ac 3:19-20

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you.

So, after the Gentile period is over, in about 45 years, we members of the Gentile Church, found only in Paul's post-Acts books, will be in Heaven or, since we will be His actual body, we will be wherever Christ is. Israel, who are God's earthly people, will be back in full swing, first in the earthly portion of the Kingdom, then the tribulation, then the millennium, a total of maybe 1700 years, with at least 2, maybe 3, massive resurrections taking place, besides the first one, which is us Gentiles going to Heaven.

Every prophecy ever prophesied involves Israel and every prophecy will be fulfilled. All Israel will be saved.

Replacement theology is one of those fake BS theologies that have cropped up due to the impatience that all of us feel during this long wait for Christ's 2nd coming. However, I always try to keep in mind that 1000 years is just a Day to the Lord
 
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