research question regarding grace

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ethicsguy

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Feb 17, 2013
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Hi.

I need some assistance from others who look at religious life differently from the way I do.

I am religious but in a different (not better) way. I do not have the personal resources, as you most likely do, to obtain a personal relationship with Christ. I have done extensive graduate work, and study, in the area of comparative religion and ethics. The best description for my life is that I am an ethical humanist. For me, attempting to assist our society in an effort to improve the human ethical endeavor fulfills me.

Herein lies my problem. I have a thought regarding a possible enhancement possibility for human ethical behavior. However, I do not want to assume that I know which way a person with a personal relation with Christ would think about this idea.

*Please, if this philosophical side of Christianity does not interest you, please disregard this post, and I thank you for your time.*

The question concerns the Christian concept of Grace ("the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings"). At its base this means that you need not be an ethically "good" person to achieve heaven when you die (although Christian teaching obviously does highly encourage this positive behavior).

The question I put forward is this: Would it be appropriate to add the concept that a person must truly attempt to be a "good" person (although not have to succeed at it) to be able to obtain access to heaven.

I request just a yes or no response.

(The reasons behind either response are easily understood and well known.

I desire to know how Christians as a whole would feel about this.

*The reason behind my question is because of a base situation found within Christianity itself. Not everyone associated with Christianity is as strong in their belief system as yourselves. The concept of Grace can set up in the "common" Christian a sub-conscious reality that one need not try hard to be "good" since they know they will obtain heaven regardless. I believe that this sub-conscious factor has added to the current (universally accepted) understanding that there is an ever growing degradation of ethics in our society as a whole.

I personally think that adding such a requirement to the afterlife would strengthen both society in general and Christianity in particular. However, I do not want to presume that everyone would agree to this concept. Hence, my question.

I would like to know very much how you feel about this idea. (By the way, I also have a possible solution as to how this alteration could be accepted amongst religious society, if any one is curious.)

I greatly appreciate your time.

If you appreciate thought provoking questions like this, please let me know.

I have one other major question to ask, but will not ask it unless you are receptive to this type of topic.

If I may have offended anyone with this question you have my sincerest apologies. It certainly is not my intention to offend.

Thank you.
 

biggandyy

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No.

(caveat, the question is fundamentally flawed as it is phrased as a false dilemma and logically invalid)
 

Angelina

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The question I put forward is this: Would it be appropriate to add the concept that a person must truly attempt to be a "good" person (although not have to succeed at it) to be able to obtain access to heaven.
...again a resounding no...

You may have identified the concept of grace but have missed the most important aspects of how it's applied along with faith and sanctification. Salvation is a living one on one relationship with our redeemer, because he lives and ministers in our lives daily through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit's presence dwelling within the believer is the guarantee of that redemption...
 

williemac

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I agree with the above replies. NO. Life is a fee gift. It requires one humbly accepts it that way. (God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud). Good behavior comes a a result of the life in us, not as a means towards it. Consider 1John 2:1. I lke Angelina's reminder that the Holy Spirit is given as a guarantee.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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ethicsguy .... I would enjoy such discussions with you. I will attempt to use secular humanist language so that we are close to being on the same level.

I will not quote any bible because that is not what you are looking for .... but I will flavor some of my comments with my understanding of what the bible indicates about the human situation.

You said ..... At its base this means that you need not be an ethically "good" person to achieve heaven when you die
This is correct

You asked for a yes/no answer to this question ..... Would it be appropriate to add the concept that a person must truly attempt to be a "good" person (although not have to succeed at it) to be able to obtain access to heaven.

My answer is ,,, yes/no ..... "yes" ... it would be appropriate that a person under grace attempt to be "good" ..... but "no" that is not what enables a person to obtain access to heaven

.......................................
Now I would like you to define the word "good" ..... you may very well be a much more ethical and "good" person than the very best christian in the world. But as a humanist you would also agree that there are many people in the world who are "far from good" ..... I think we all know that.

So as a "species" mankind is "not good" ..... Period. That is basically the position the Creator takes. We have flaws within our "species" which He calls "sin" for the lack of a better word.

So even the very best person in the world is capable of being the very worst person in the world .

.....................................
Now back to the word "good" in a humanist context ..... In Canada we have a famous doctor who is a confirmed Humanist and he did a "good" thing by building a chain of abortion clinics across the country as an "ethical" service for women who want to terminate life in the womb .... he feels this is much better than the old days of terminating life in a back alley using a rusty coathanger.

He has become a multi-millionare by operating those clinics and has even managed to get our health care system to pay some of the costs. He feels everything he has done is "good"

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Many everyday Christians have contributed a dollar here and a dollar there in order to raise millions of dollars to provide facilities for "unwed mothers" to help those unfortunate women bring babies to term and have them adopted etc. The Christian feels they are doing a "good" thing.

The Creator looks down at those "good" Christians and says ..... shame on you ..... you are fat and lazy ..... you should have done a lot more for those women ..... you spend more on food that ends up in the garbage than you have ever spent on helping pregnant women who are at the end of their rope ..... you "good" Christians need a whole pile of grace in order to clear the slate ..... and you still dont deserve forgiveness ..... a price still has to be paid ..... I will send my "good" Son to pay for your mistakes ..... nail him to a tree or something.


Best wishes ethicsguy ..... I look forward to more discussions .... you ask questions that even many "good" Christians ask themselves.

Sorry for the long post ..... i will try to be brief next time
 

Axehead

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Ethicsguy, how do you define "good person"? Ultimately, in your philosophical world, who judges what a "good person", looks like?
 
Feb 7, 2013
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YES - "By their fruits you shall know them"

Comments on some of your thoughts.

"Christian concept of Grace ("the free and unmerited favor of God)"
A Christians concept of grace should be no different than a secular concept.
God's grace is free and undeserved, but his reward is merited to those who then choose to follow him.
Secular example: A police officer pulls you over for speeding and says I feel gracious today I wont give you a ticket, you respond by flipping him the bird and covering him in dust and rocks as you speed off. Your reward will be entirely merited, a jail cell (as opposed to hell).

"Would it be appropriate to add the concept that a person must truly attempt to be a "good" person (although not have to succeed at it) to be able to obtain access to heaven."
Yes indeed. (Dittto Arnie Manitoba) (and williemac "Good behavior comes a a result of the life in us, not as a means towards it") As Christians we have already accepted our failure and rely on the perfect life of Jesus as our substitute. However, If we do not attempt to follow Jesus example we are by default rejecting him.

"common" Christian a sub-conscious reality...I do not want to presume that everyone would agree to this concept.
Unfortunately the common Christian sub-conscious reality you mention is rife, and as such your proposition will most definitely not agree with the many. Because the Devil's aim is to draw as many away from God as possible there are many errors which have been implanted into Christianity, and he will fight for his life to protect them. So If your proposition reflects biblical principles (which 'doing good' is), and many are in opposition to your idea, you can be certain that the Holy Spirit has lead you post in this forum as evidence of the great controversy between God and Satan.

Moderators - How can you answer No, and argue semantics?
This searching soul see's a conflict among Christians and you would have him confirm his observations, should we not be of one fold?
You are saying Christians should not do good, are you really suggesting this?
If I have misunderstood your posts, please forgive me. But I would appreciate clarification on why Christians should not 'truly attempt to be a "good" person'.
 

Angelina

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Your quote:

Unfortunately the common Christian sub-conscious reality you mention is rife, and as such your proposition will most definitely not agree with the many. Because the Devil's aim is to draw as many away from God as possible there are many errors which have been implanted into Christianity, and he will fight for his life to protect them. So If your proposition reflects biblical principles (which 'doing good' is), and many are in opposition to your idea, you can be certain that the Holy Spirit has lead you post in this forum as evidence of the great controversy between God and Satan.
Steve, he is an ethical humanist...how is it that he has been drawn here by the Holy Spirit? :huh:
Their belief in God is of lesser importance than human beings treating each other with respect, kindness. Most are noted as agnostics and many do not believe a God who is omnipresent or omniscient because it is not ethical.



Moderators - How can you answer No, and argue semantics?
This searching soul see's a conflict among Christians and you would have him confirm his observations, should we not be of one fold?.
really? :huh:
 
Feb 7, 2013
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Angelina said:
Your quote:

Steve, he is an ethical humanist...how is it that he has been drawn here by the Holy Spirit? :huh:
Hi Angelina,

I do believe that God made the sun which shines on all mankind good and evil; that he sows his seed not just on the good soil but also by the way side and stony soil; that he uses heathen kings and nations and even secular humanists to carry out his works. This guy doesn't need to believe in the Holy Spirit for Him to exist. Which brings me back to my point.

I really am just shocked and disappointed that both Andy and You (to a lesser extent) were not able filter out ethicsguy's wordy distractions to read a plainly stated question.

ethicsguy said:
The question I put forward is this: Would it be appropriate to add the concept that a person must truly attempt to be a "good" person (although not have to succeed at it) to be able to obtain access to heaven.
...
The concept of Grace can set up in the "common" Christian a sub-conscious reality that one need not try hard to be "good" since they know they will obtain heaven regardless.
To "be good" or not to "be good", that is the question.

When you answer No, you are effectively saying Christians should not try to be good people. Scripture is very clear on this point which is why I titled my response 'By their fruits you shall know them'.

I don't know how ethicsguy understands the concepts of faith and sanctification and salvation, as he doesn't mention these as an issue. Rather he does mention the all too common practice of Christians who claim Grace then Act out hypocrisy, (definitely not ethical). Which may well be why he claims secular humanism? We all know people who have turned Agnostic or Atheist for this very reason.

Really, Yes, I do pray for unity. This is why I have joined a Christian forum, to challenge my own knowledge of scripture and draw from the Wonderfully knowledgeable people here. 2Ti_3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" I will take my lessons with respect and study. If I am wrong that Christians should try to be good people please correct me, biblically.

Sincerely, Steve.
 

Angelina

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Steve...he is not asking the question as one who is curious about our belief but rather for the sake of including it [or should I say adapting it] into their already established philosophy. Humanism has nothing to do with Christianity. It is basically humans trying to be their own god without God...


This guy doesn't need to believe in the Holy Spirit for Him to exist. Which brings me back to my point.
Hey steve...it was you who suggested that he was led here by the Holy Spirit...


Unfortunately the common Christian sub-conscious reality you mention is rife, and as such your proposition will most definitely not agree with the many. Because the Devil's aim is to draw as many away from God as possible there are many errors which have been implanted into Christianity, and he will fight for his life to protect them. So If your proposition reflects biblical principles (which 'doing good' is), and many are in opposition to your idea, you can be certain that the Holy Spirit has lead you post in this forum as evidence of the great controversy between God and Satan.
...and now your saying that he doesn't need to believe in the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit to exist? :blink: That wasn't the point of the original accusation now was it...nor was it the reason why you said that in the first place...It is a shame that you cannot just say "I'm sorry, I misunderstood the post" Instead you would rather continue on with this facade accusing Andy and I of something that never actually happened. :huh:

I am sure that others will read this and see what I am talking about...you have a nice day!

Bless ya!
 
Feb 7, 2013
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Hi Angelina,

I do admit that I am not familiar with humanism, their philosophies or beliefs. This is likely why you can see things in his post which I chose to ignore. Also I will put away the topic of the Holy spirit and how I referenced him in this matter, as that would require an whole other thread and much discussion.

Also I do appreciate you responding to most of what I said. I may not have the knowledge to comprehend all of his humanistic nuances, but I still haven't heard a response from you about his obvious "to be good or not to be good" proposition. From my understanding of the post & your initial No answer, it seems you have missed that point entirely. I am simply trying to determine (and give you a chance to clarify) if you actually believe in "Once saved always saved"?

...

I do owe you an apology, I am sorry! I could have just said that in the first place. I get in trouble from my wife all the time for things like that. Please forgive me Angelina!
 

Angelina

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Steve:
but I still haven't heard a response from you about his obvious "to be good or not to be good" proposition. From my understanding of the post & your initial No answer, it seems you have missed that point entirely.
:huh: ...no honey, I'm afraid that it is you who have missed the point because you have not taken into account the guys background nor his reasons for asking the question.

ethicsguy
I need some assistance from others who look at religious life differently from the way I do.
He calls his belief a religion but it is not a Christian religion.

his quotes:
The best description for my life is that I am an ethical humanist.
This is his purpose for asking the question. It is based on his philosophical belief as an ethical humanist - not as an non-believer or a Christian or a Pagan...

For me, attempting to assist our society in an effort to improve the human ethical endeavor fulfills me....
I have a thought regarding a possible enhancement possibility for human ethical behavior. However, I do not want to assume that I know which way a person with a personal relation with Christ would think about this idea.
His desire is to improve/ enhance human ethical behavior in society as a whole...

This is the question that he poses from the viewpoint of an ethical humanist:
The question I put forward is this: Would it be appropriate to add the concept that a person must truly attempt to be a "good" person (although not have to succeed at it) to be able to obtain access to heaven.
Based on his perspective as an ethical humanist, he is asking whether it would be appropriate to add the Christian concept of "Grace," as a means of obtaining access to heaven. The answer is no because you cannot take a Christian concept like grace and try to apply it to society in general nor to any other religious belief system like humanism. This concept can only be applied within the context of a Christian worldview because grace is a gift of God and an integral part of a whole process...a process that leads to salvation and eternal life. Attempting to be a good person does not enter into this equation because grace is given without merit - and it is from that viewpoint, that I gave my answer...

my quote:
You may have identified the concept of grace but have missed the most important aspects of how it's applied along with faith and sanctification. Salvation is a living one on one relationship with our redeemer, because he lives and ministers in our lives daily through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit's presence dwelling within the believer is the guarantee of that redemption...
Steve:
if you actually believe in "Once saved always saved"?
and no, I do not believe in OSAS - which has absolutely nothing to do with this thread nor has it ever, at any time :huh:

PS: you're forgiven :)
BB
 

Axehead

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Interesting dichotomy is that grace is not really free. It will cost you everything to follow Jesus. He requires no less than our WHOLE HEART.

There are many such dichotomy's in the Bible. And it is because of this that God confounds the natural mind and He did it on purpose.

He began to exist at a particular time.
He existed prior to that time.

He was born in the days of Herod.
He existed prior to the days of Herod.


He became what He was not before.
He did not cease to be what He was before.

Man cannot be God.
Jesus was a man who claimed to be God.

God does everything at His own initiative.
Jesus said, “I do nothing of My own initiative.”

God cannot be seen or touched.
Jesus was seen and touched.

God cannot be tempted.
Jesus was tempted in all points as we are.

Death is the consequence of sin.
Jesus died, having no sin.

We become what we were not before.
We do not cease to be what we were before.

Righteousness is by faith apart from works.
Faith apart from works of righteousness is impossible.

God alone can express His character of godliness.
“Discipline yourself unto godliness.”

From MAKING THE IRRATIONAL RATIONAL
 
Feb 7, 2013
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Axehead said:
Interesting dichotomy is that grace is not really free. It will cost you everything to follow Jesus. He requires no less than our WHOLE HEART.
Very true Axehead, and might I add Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
I like the examples you gave and can place many of them but wish I could place more :(

Angelina, Thank you again for being so patient with me even through all the frustration for both of us.

I think it is now clear that neither of us missed the point but rather were focussing on different parts of the same question.
I did catch his "to be able to obtain access to heaven reference" but chose to ignore it for several reasons. Largely because the bulk of what he wrote revolved around his "problem... regarding a possible enhancement possibility for human ethical behaviour."; and (correct me if I am wrong but,) humanists don't generally believe in God or heaven. This is what lead me to focus on the first part of his question. I do not intend to re-open a can of worms, but rather want to clear the air on my take of his question.

Steve.
 

Axehead

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brrrilliantsteve said:
Very true Axehead, and might I add Matthew 11:30 "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
I like the examples you gave and can place many of them but wish I could place more :(

Angelina, Thank you again for being so patient with me even through all the frustration for both of us.

I think it is now clear that neither of us missed the point but rather were focussing on different parts of the same question.
I did catch his "to be able to obtain access to heaven reference" but chose to ignore it for several reasons. Largely because the bulk of what he wrote revolved around his "problem... regarding a possible enhancement possibility for human ethical behaviour."; and (correct me if I am wrong but,) humanists don't generally believe in God or heaven. This is what lead me to focus on the first part of his question. I do not intend to re-open a can of worms, but rather want to clear the air on my take of his question.

Steve.

Truth is a prism with many sides to it that complete it.
diamond2.jpg
 

williemac

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Axehead said:
Interesting dichotomy is that grace is not really free. It will cost you everything to follow Jesus. He requires no less than our WHOLE HEART.
We may have to agree to disagree on that one. Grace may be difficult to define, but I can describe it from the scripure. What I see is that when God gives something freely, that is grace. It is the giving of a free gift. The whole point of the gospel is that life cannot be earned. It can only come to us as a free gift. That is by God's design. It will take humility for a person to receive it that way. This is the real price we pay. Our humility.

Whatever it costs a person to follow Jesus, as you put it, is not a price we pay for eternal life. As well, it is not even possible to give Him our whole heart. Again, we must define the heart.

FYI, years ago I asked God a question in my prayer time. I asked Him to define the heart for me. A few weeks later as I was watching a tv. program, I kept getting a quickening about something on it. As I began to pay attention to it, the thought hit me that this was the answer to my question.

The program was an infromercial selling subliminal tapes that were supposed to reprogram the subconscious (this only works on a temporary level, btw) As they identified and explained what the subconscious is, it occured to me that this clinically proven part of our minds is so significant, the bible should have talked about it. Well,,,duh! It does. The human heart of the bible is none other than what science refers to as the subconscious.
I took out my concordance and tested it. Literally every place the heart is used, one can replace the word with subconscious mind, and it will fit according to the description of what the subconscios is and how it works.

Here is the rub. Jesus told us to guard our heart, for out of it springs the issues of life. There are imaginations of the heart, thoughts, plans, evil, good, things that come out of the abundance of the heart...I could go on. But you get my drift, I hope.

My point is that since we are in a fallen world and are viewing evil right in front of us on a daily basis, there is no way that our heart is untainted enough for us to control it. In fact, it is not even designed to be controlled by our will. It is designed to be the centre of our mind. Hence the term "heart" ( centre) . It is the most wonderful and complex computer ever designed and created by God. It can process info at thousands of times faster than our conscious mind. As well, it remembers everything we see and experience.

But thankfully, Jesus is not asking us for our whole heart. In fact, His promise is to give us a new heart. We cannot give Him anything but our humble acceptance of His freely given gifts. The demand to give Him our "whole" heart, whatever that means for any individual, is too great a burden for anyone to bear. There is no price to pay for a free gift, other than the one that was paid by our Savior on our behalf.

I would prefer that we rather lift the weight off of our brothers' backs so that they can run into His presence with boldness and confidence, to find grace to help in time of need. In the meantime, He will take whatever little or great of our heart that we can offer... and then He will heal it and remold it...and make it whole. It is not whole before we come to Him. It may not ever be whole in this life.


If you don't mind me sharing more, I woud like to add that it is possible for the heart (subconscious) to contain both truth and error. In fact there can be conflicting ideas in our hearts. James said "purify your hearts you double minded" (4:8). The message here is that conflicting doctrines in the heart cause one to be double minded. However, I have discovered a solution. The bible urges us to, in all our getting, get understanding. In the parable of the sower, Jesus explained that he who bears fruit is he who hears the word, and understands it (in his heart). The key to guarding the heart against error is in understanding. This is why I advise people to not just believe what they are told. One must understand why truth is true. A good teacher doesn't just tell people what to believe. He gives them understanding from scripture to the point that they form their own belief from their own mind and heart. This is why subliminal tapes do not work. The power of suggestion is weak and temporary because it is not dealing with the person's understanding. Just rambling here. Thought you might enjoy. Blessings, Howie