Revelation 11-the measure of the temple

[Willie T]

H2S,
You have a PM.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@Heart2Soul

Would you mind revealing how you study the book of Revelation?

1.) Do you already have a dispensational or amillennial view and come at it with one of those?

2.) Do you use commentaries and if so what are they?

Don't misunderstand, I am not questioning your method. I am just curious as to how you study the book of Revelation.

Stranger

Since Revelation is such a complicated read I try not to study it with any personal beliefs on the rapture.....however, having said that, it was when I was in my late 20s when I first studied Revelation and that is when I first began to question a pre-trib rapture. Nothing added up right with what I was reading to what I was being taught in the church.
The question on dispensational or amillennial view....honestly I had never heard of these until coming to this forum and I don't know what their views are. I pray and seek the Holy Spirit for answers and that is where I come to my understanding on scripture.....
And I have prayed throughout the years asking God if I have been deceived and if so show me. I continue even today to seek Him on this matter.
I use commentaries occasionally....Matthew Henry is one I favor the most, Gill's is good as well. But as I said above I mostly seek the Holy Spirit to help me see and understand.
Thanks for inquiring....God Bless

 

[Heart2Soul]

In Jesus' first appearing, having come down from Heaven, He was Himself the literal temple of God, that was made without hands, of which was formerly shadowed by God's description given to Moses, for the sanctuary that was to be made with hands.
Exodus 25:1-2, 8-9

Therein lies the reason also, of why there will be NO temple building re-built by the Jews on earth, for now through Jesus, ever since Pentecost, believers in Jesus are now the Temple of God, by Him dwelling within us.
John 2: 19:22.

I understand your reasoning about the temple being Jesus....indeed we are the temple of the Holy Spirit....but for the Jews they are still living according to their beliefs and are in the process of rebuilding the Temple of Solomon....they err in truth about the spiritual temple because they haven't accepted that the messiah has come yet.

 

[Heart2Soul]

In the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, the Outer Court contained two main items of significance...

1) Brazen Laver
2) Brazen Altar

If we were to look into the deeper meanings of said items, we would find that they represent a type of dichotomy.

The Brazen Laver would represent the Sea of Glass while the Brazen Altar would represent the Lake of Fire.

Personally, I've always viewed Outer Darkness, and those that are 'bundled' in it, as a temporary storage area before burning.

This scenario would fit in with the Brazen Altar and the 'Slaughter Tables' of sacrifices that wait to be burned.

Thus, the Brazen Laver/Sea of Glass are the Wheat (Saved) that are to be cleaned while the Brazen Altar/Lake of Fire are the Tares (Unsaved) that are to be burned.

This definition could definitely imply the gathering of the harvest....thank you.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Yeah, confirming the prophecy of Ezekiel, starting at chapter 40, stating the measurements of the new Temple.

The Times of the Gentiles comes to an end after the 6th seal is opened at the end of Revelation 6, and the 144000 Jews are sealed in Rev 7. This takes place after the 6th seal is opened, and before the 7th seal is opened. The saints are not sealed because they won't be here when the 7th seal is opened [cf starting at Rev 7:9] The saints, a myriad which no man could number are taken up to Heaven, they don't need to be sealed against God's ultimate wrath directed at those who hate Him.

Thanks for your input....I still have to incorporate the 2 witnesses in this chapter and how this all fits together.
God Bless

 

[brakelite]

And you'll know that as an adventist I was always going to offer something different...
Revelation 11 Commentary
The above commentary must be seen in perspective as a chronological piece around the turn of the 18th century... The end of the 1260 years of papal supremacy in Europe, and the total rejection of God in the French revolution... The destruction of all Christian literature and the burning of Bibles and subsequent establishment of atheism and secular humanism as an official government sponsored belief system developing into communism, and the resulting persecution against God's people.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hey everyone.....so I am STILL studying Revelation....and this jumped out at me concerning the measuring of the temple....the outer court was not to be measured because it was given to the Gentiles who trampled it for 3.5 years.....
Revelation 11
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3A
Thank you!

“Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar...” He is the altar 1 Corinthians 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? “...and them that worship therein.”

 

[Heart2Soul]

And you'll know that as an adventist I was always going to offer something different...
Revelation 11 Commentary
The above commentary must be seen in perspective as a chronological piece around the turn of the 18th century... The end of the 1260 years of papal supremacy in Europe, and the total rejection of God in the French revolution... The destruction of all Christian literature and the burning of Bibles and subsequent establishment of atheism and secular humanism as an official government sponsored belief system developing into communism, and the resulting persecution against God's people.

Interesting read there....it weighs heavily on the physical realm of interpretation rather than spiritual....it gets mind boggling with all the various views that people have concerning this. I am so very thankful for the Holy Spirit to help separate and discern the truth in these matters. I foundthis to be very interesting....
11:3-4 “The two witnesses,” which are said to be “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks,” represent the Old and New Testaments. The olive trees represent the power of the Holy Spirit. The candlesticks symbolize the spiritual light of the scriptures. Psalm 119:105; Zechariah 4:1-14. The two witnesses were to “prophesy…in sackcloth,” symbolizing mourning.
I am going to search this out some more. Thank you for your input.

 

[Helen]

I'm not going to be trying to "correct" anyone. I have studied Revelation since before you were born, H2S, and I still am not as positive about my views as most of the people here seem to KNOW they are. The difference may be that I have not limited my studying to only those who felt the same way I did.

And @Stranger ...

Like you say Willie we have been round this block since the 60's...
We used to attend "Prophetic meetings" in our town once a month.
At first we got all excited and thought we were 'learning something'.
Trouble was, every ' prophetic preacher ' changed the goal posts ..sometimes a tiny bit but often a lot! Even to us as young christians , we could see that some of what was said was totally off the wall.

Needless to say...we quit.

Like our friend @101G here....I have a good idea on what things represent.
Revelation is not a book where I ever say "I have got this nailed" .

I'd go as far as to say...no one has...because the book of Revelation will only make essence to us as it comes to pass. Then we will say "Ah, this is that..."

I am not in the camp like some, who believe it has all been fulfilled ...if it really was( the destruction of Jerusalem) then why on earth is it in the Book. IMHO

Nop, to me...Revelation will only make sense via revelation...

I know I haven't got further than reading a few posts on page 1 , I will now continue reading all post to this last one ....

 

[Helen]

all things are pointing to the END, (the Harvest), which will come no doubt about that. but understand the Tares will be gathered first.

PICJAG.

Hi there...Im still working my way through the first page of this thread lol
So, I am a bit behind...

You say "all things are pointing to the END, Harvest ..."
Do you mean that?

I don't believe that the harvest is what its all about at all...
I'd say- ALL things are pointing toward the Lamb and union...the harvest should not be our vision...but Him...

But ignore this if I am rabbit-holing..and just tripping over a blade of grass.

Im just interest in your personal vision. ( not ready taking about the Revelation book as such. )

I believe the outer court is just " the rest of the gang" that make it in by the skin of their teeth...
Where God does measure it is what He is interested in... perfection ( not of ourselves) and union -with the Son . The measure of all those who overcame.

....

 

[Earburner]

And you'll know that as an adventist I was always going to offer something different...
Revelation 11 Commentary
The above commentary must be seen in perspective as a chronological piece around the turn of the 18th century... The end of the 1260 years of papal supremacy in Europe, and the total rejection of God in the French revolution... The destruction of all Christian literature and the burning of Bibles and subsequent establishment of atheism and secular humanism as an official government sponsored belief system developing into communism, and the resulting persecution against God's people.

Hmmm...
You might want to reconsider that prophesy again anout the 2Ws. Could it be that they have already come?
You might've overlooked the fact, that Revelation 11:3 is telling of the manifestation of two people, who in combination, did have a ministry for 3.5 years.
One was beheaded, and the other went to the cross.

 

[Earburner]

Also, when Jesus spoke of the "AoD" as the type, who was He speaking of, that was about to fulfill it in anti-type?
John 5[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.
First my apologies for not responding last night. my wife fell a litte ill, and I took her to the hospital, but all things are fine now, she came home late last night.

Now down to business.

I don't believe that the harvest is what its all about at all...
I'd say- ALL things are pointing toward the Lamb and union...the harvest should not be our vision...but Him...

Yes, the harvest of his people the bride is the gathering together. one cannot union unles they come together. all things come together when he comes.

so the gathering is at his coming. thanks for the input.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Revelation is not a book where I ever say "I have got this nailed" .

you're correct Helen. Only God have it nailed down, for he wroted.

but let's see what is nailed down. by letting the Holy Spirit lead us.

Revelation 11:4 "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth”.

Zechariah 4:2 "And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof. 3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. 4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord? 5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts".

Here Jesus is confirm as one of the two witness, How?. not by his might, or power, but by, "MY spirit". wait a minute, I thought God is a Spirit. so who is this, "spirit"?. any time one sees small case spirit, it either a man or another spirit, an angel. Not by
might, nor by power, (meaning not by dunamis power), but by his spirit, small case spirit. meaning a man with God's authority, the exousia power, or his anointed. and it is two olive trees that is anointed with himself, THE HOLY SPIRIT. so clearly the man, Jesus, is one of the two witness. lets see if this anointing is with God.

Zechariah 4:11 "Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?. 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth". now from olive trees, to olive branches so clearly, God spirit, small case, is the man Jesus, who is God, his Intrinsic spatial, or the manifestation of God shared in flesh. you have heard of the word, spatial, if not look up the word, Intrinsic. in order to get a full understanding of who this spirit, "of" God is. The "of", tell you who he is. Now we know for a fact that the Lord Jesus the MAN, NOT THE SPIRIT HIMSELF, but , "OF" God, his (Intrinsic spatial), is that witness. now, with that knowledge, that just bring John into the picture even more. because he witness to that CANDLESTICK. I suggest a re-reading of Zechariah chapters 3, & 4 to get a good picture of the two witness. Lets recap. The angel that spoke with Zechariah said that the two Olive trees are the two anointed ones. Let’s see who was anointed by God, and God anoints with his Spirit. A. we know that the Lord Jesus, Given, as a man, (in flesh), was anointed from the birth of the flesh. Was John born with the Spirit? Luke 1:13-15 "But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb”. at that time, the only two men who was Spiritually alive to God on earth was John Baptist and the Lord Jesus. Both had the Spirit from birth.

so in order to be a witness one must be ALIVE Spiritually, for all men was Spirtually DEAD. and DEAD men cannot testify, or be a witness.

so the anointing oil is the Holy Spirit, Both John and the Lord Jesus each had the anointing from birth.

so the two olive trees are John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus which we will Prove out completly.

PICJAG.

 

[Helen]

GINOLJC, to all.
First my apologies for not responding last night. my wife fell a litte ill, and I took her to the hospital, but all things are fine now, she came home late last night.

Now down to business.

Yes, the harvest of his people the bride is the gathering together. one cannot union unles they come together. all things come to Gether when he comes.

so the gathering is at his coming. thanks for the input.

PICJAG.

@Heart2Soul if my posting is 'off centre' just say...not trying to derail your study ..honest ;)

@101G

So, just interested , it sounds a but as if you believe that 'everyone' who is eventually saved will be in the Bride company ?

I don't find that the bible shows this at all. Even within what is described about heaven..we have Archangels , angels , seraphim's , cherubim's etc etc.. By what I read, and in study of the tabernacle ( which @amadeus mention well) ..we have the High priest and Moses ( group) which could go in and out of the Holy of Holy's , and then the priests that served in the Holy Place... . and those who served in the outer court , and then the 'rest of Israel ' who were outside the tabernacle ....

Just saying...no, I do not believe at all that everyone will be in Union and dwell in the wedding chamber. Just as we see the picture of the talents and the different levels of accountability...and responsibility.

But I say again, maybe this is not for this particular thread.

Oh. edit, forgot to say...everything in the word is in picture form ...and types-of
...God knows our little brains can't grasp the fullness of the heavenly realm and its workings..

Blessings...Helen

 

[101G]

@Heart2Soul if my posting is 'off centre' just say...not trying to derail your study ..honest ;)

@101G

So, just interested , it sounds a but as if you believe that 'everyone' who is eventually saved will be in the Bride company ?

I don't find that the bible shows this at all. Even within what is described about heaven..we have Archangels , angels , seraphim's , cherubim's etc etc.. By what I read, and in study of the tabernacle ( which @amadeus mention well) ..we have the High priest and Moses ( group) which could go in and out of the Holy of Holy's , and then the priests that served in the Holy Place... . and those who served in the outer court , and then the 'rest of Israel ' who were outside the tabernacle ....

Just saying...no, I do not believe at all that everyone will be in Union and dwell in the wedding chamber. Just as we see the picture of the talents and the different levels of accountability...and responsibility.

But I say again, maybe this is not for this particular thread.

Oh. edit, forgot to say...everything in the word is in picture form ...and types-of
...God knows our little brains can't grasp the fullness of the heavenly realm and its workings..

Blessings...Helen

I think you're getting the wrong impression.
1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light"

see Helen without holness you want see God.

PICJAG.

 

[Enoch111]

the temple of God is his people, 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?".

You are trying to introduce confusion into this discussion (as usual). If this is what was in view in Revelation 11, how would you measure the Church with a rod (a reed was a measuring stick)? Do you see how absurd this becomes when you confound the Church and the literal temple at Jerusalem?

So what that boils down to is UNBELIEF. People who refuse to take Scripture primarily in its plain literal sense (unless otherwise indicated) are telling God indirectly "I do not believe you". So let's get back to the subject at hand -- Revelation 11.

THERE WILL BE A LITERAL TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM DURING THE REIGN OF THE ANTICHRIST
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

THE OUTER COURT WILL BE EXCLUDED SINCE IT WILL BE DESECRATED BY GENTILES
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:...

THE REIGN OF THE ANTICHRIST WILL BE FOR 42 MONTHS
...and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

MOSES AND ELIJAH WILL PROPHESY ON EARTH FOR 42 MONTHS
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [Note: Elijah must come to earth before the great and terrible day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation). Moses and Elijah also met with Christ at His transfiguration]

THE TWO WITNESSES ARE METAPHORICALLY OLIVE TREES AND LAMPSTANDS (FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT)
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. [Note: These witnesses will preach the Gospel primarily to the Jews, and testify against the Antichrist. Many will be saved and martyred]

SUPERNATURAL FIRE WILL DEVOUR THE ENEMIES OF THESE PROPHETS
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. [Note: Elijah brought down fire from Heaven when he was on earth]

REASON WHY THESE TWO ARE MOSES AND ELIJAH
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy [ELIJAH]: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. [MOSES] [Note: When Elijah was on earth, it did not rain for 3 1/2 years (42 months)]

THE ANTICHRIST WILL HAVE THEM KILLED
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

JERUSALEM IS SPIRITUAL SODOM AND EGYPT AT THAT TIME
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [Note: Jerusalem will be under the total control of Satan and the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years]

THE WHOLE WORLD WILL WITNESS THEIR DEATHS
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

THE WHOLE WORLD WILL REJOICE AT THEIR DEATHS
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

MOSES AND ELIJAH WILL BE RESURRECTED
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

MOSES AND ELIJAH WILL BE RAPTURED TO HEAVEN
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

A GREAT EARTHQUAKE IN JERUSALEM WILL DESTROY THAT TEMPLE
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [Note: The third temple will be abominable to God, hence it will be destroyed. Then there will be a fourth temple in Jerusalem according to the prophecy of Ezekiel, and this will be the true and holy temple of God]

THE FUTURE REIGN OF CHRIST ON EARTH IS PROPHESIED
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

THE 24 ELDERS IN HEAVEN PRAISE AND WORSHIP GOD AND CHRIST AT THIS TIME
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

THE WRATH OF GOD COMES DOWN ON EARTH AT THIS TIME
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

THE HEAVENLY TEMPLE IS OPENED AND IT HAS THE ARK OF THE COVENANT
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament [covenant]: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. [Note: The Ark of the Covenant was removed from the earth when Solomon's temple was destroyed by Babylon]

 

[101G]

If this is what was in view in Revelation 11, how would you measure the Church with a rod (a reed was a measuring stick)? Do you see how absurd this becomes when you confound the Church and the literal temple at Jerusalem?

you have no idea do you.

but thanks for your imput.

Good Day

PICJAG.

 

[Enoch111]

you have no idea do you.

Why don't you try and learn the truth for a change?

 

[101G]

since there are many who say and I quote ,"trying to introduce confusion into this discussion (as usual)". well if I'm in ERROR then just correct.

so to all the seer's let's see what you got here on this verse.
Revelation 11:5 "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed".

ok, Enoch111, your understanding.

PICJAG.