Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology

[Peterlag]

Who are you arguing against? The Word of God was given to man that they might know Him and come to glorify Him! The Word gives man not only a historical record from the beginning of creation, but it is also a record from the beginning of Redemptive History. It is through study of the whole that we come to understand God's plan for mankind that was ordained in heaven through Covenanting with man. The whole has lessons for moral instruction as well as knowledge of Christ for God's Church throughout the ages. That began with Israel, the Church of Old, that was with Moses before Christ came into the world, a prophet of Old who received the oracles (word) from God.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The Church has always been the focus of the Word of God! Before the first advent of Christ, the Church came through Israel, then after the cross and resurrection, the message of the Gospel to build the Church was sent unto all the nations of the world. To try to limit the focus of Scripture to any one people shows a lack of understanding the Word of God has been and shall be for all time, and to all (Church) who believe God. The Bible has always been about, and for the Church as She exists on this earth.

Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Again, you guys are not getting it. You think I'm saying all people should not read the Bible because all of it was not addressed to everyone. I'm not saying that. I'm saying we need to understand the Bible in light of to whom it was written to. There are no Gentile Christians mentioned in the New Testament. To say that it is can only be done by mixing the whole Bible together without understanding to whom it is addressed.

 

[Peterlag]

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Sorry if I missed it, but what does that mean?

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Peterlag]

Not in Christ, but in this world there kind of still is a distinction .... or should still be a distinction between male and female (how far we've sunk in Western society),

just as there still is a distinction between German and Chinese Christian, Indian and British, Maori and American, Jewish and Gentile Christians.

See I don't comment on the things of men. The Scriptures have 3 different classifications for people. It mentions you are either a Jew, Gentile or Christian (belong to the church of God). It does not say anything about German, Chinese, Indian, British, Maori or American.

 

[Peterlag]

Mr. Bullinger, PLEASE stop Peter from copying and pasting your work. You've got the poor fellow confused like you into thinking someone who existed before His human conception is not Himself God.

There is only one God, Mr. Bullinger.

This is not Bullinger's work.

 

[Peterlag]

What God said to Israel through Moses regarding the law, was as good as said to us if we were alive with them then.

What God said through the prophet Jeremiah about the New Covenant that was to come, was as good as said to us if we were alive with the people who heard it then.

What Jesus said to His apostles about the cup of wine at the last Passover meal that He shared with them representing the New Covenant in His blood, was as good as said to us if we were alive with them then.

It's not "them, then". It's US, then, and now.

The same goes for God castigating them "then" when they were unfaithful and warning them of their coming punishment at the hand of the beast Babylon if they did not repent. It was as good as said to us if we were alive with them then.

All believers of all time are one in Christ NOW, even those who lived before He came but believed the Word of God like Abraham did.

Let's look at your first statement. As far as I'm concerned what God said to Israel through Moses regarding the law as nothing to do with me.

 

[Ziggy]

As far as I'm concerned what God said to Israel through Moses regarding the law as nothing to do with me.

1Co 9:9
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Co 9:10
Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Co 9:11
If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

You see that we are having a good debate here. No one is trying to censor or muzzle another from speaking their point of view or their opinion.
Would you agree that this law which was given to Israel through Moses is as relative to us today as it was to them yesterday?

My question is... what are we treading?
And what is the hope of our plowing?
In other words.. what's the end game here?

Hugs

 

[Peterlag]

1Co 9:9
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Co 9:10
Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Co 9:11
If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

You see that we are having a good debate here. No one is trying to censor or muzzle another from speaking their point of view or their opinion.
Would you agree that this law which was given to Israel through Moses is as relative to us today as it was to them yesterday?

My question is... what are we treading?
And what is the hope of our plowing?
In other words.. what's the end game here?

Hugs

Okay well, then I can say they were breathing air in the Old Testament so that applies to us too.

 

[Ziggy]

Okay well, then I can say they were breathing air in the Old Testament so that applies to us too.

It probably had a lot less chemicals then than it does now, but yes you could say that.


Hugs

 

[covenantee]

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Your commentary?

 

[Ziggy]

See I don't comment on the things of men. The Scriptures have 3 different classifications for people. It mentions you are either a Jew, Gentile or Christian (belong to the church of God). It does not say anything about German, Chinese, Indian, British, Maori or American.

Germans are named after Germany, Chinese after China, Indian after India, American after America.
Is Israel named after the country or was the country named after the man?

And don't forget heathen, their in the mix too.

Gal 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So was Abraham a heathen? hmm.
You know I learn new things everyday. It's amazing.

NIV:
Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.

So the promise was first to the Gentile then to the Jew.

Back to the chicken and egg..

Geography isn't one of my strong points. And I don't know who drew up the lines that divide the countries by nations and tongues.
I know through peace times and war the lines become blurred and the lines move. They shrink or expand depending on whom the conquerer is.
There is a lot of that going on at the moment between Russia and Ukraine, Israel and Palestine.
New lines are being drawn and the peoples of the world are migrating to many different places.

America used to be Mexico and France and Apache land and all the tribal names.
But then through peace time and war the country became America.
History is fascinating.

Who are the Americans?

We don't have one nationality, one creed. We are many from all over the world.
We are One Nation Under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All.

That sounds like the promise of a promised land.
And look what it's become.. unrecognizable. A cup overflowing with heathen and sin.
And yet among the darkness there are stars that shine their light among men.
We are a scattered people brought together for the purpose of serving God and yet what we do is serve ourselves.
We are the chosen turned heathen.

Turn, turn, turn.....

who knows which way the wind will blow..
only God knows.

Hugs

 

[Timtofly]

No He didn't. Adam lived in the sabbath rest of God in the Garden of Eden. The sabbath rest came to an end when Adam was expelled from Eden:

17 But to Adam he said,
"Because you obeyed your wife
and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,'
cursed is the ground thanks to you;
in painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
but you will eat the grain of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat food
until you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you will return."

Stop guessing!!

You are a staunch Catholic when it comes to creation. Stop listening to human theology.

 

[Timtofly]

If your great great great great great .. grandfather was Israel you would be naturally born of Israel, regardless of whether or not you believe.

You won't be in Christ who is in heaven in the bosom of the Father when you die if you do not believe, and you won't ever be part of His Kingdom on earth, i.e you won't be part of God's elect, a.k.a the Israel of God.

Stop guessing!!

Now you claim Israel is an ethnicity?

And still in force today? What Covenant is ethnic Israel still under, that Christians are conceived in the womb?

 

[Peterlag]

Germans are named after Germany, Chinese after China, Indian after India, American after America.
Is Israel named after the country or was the country named after the man?

And don't forget heathen, their in the mix too.

Gal 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So was Abraham a heathen? hmm.
You know I learn new things everyday. It's amazing.

NIV:
Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.

So the promise was first to the Gentile then to the Jew.

Back to the chicken and egg..

Geography isn't one of my strong points. And I don't know who drew up the lines that divide the countries by nations and tongues.
I know through peace times and war the lines become blurred and the lines move. They shrink or expand depending on whom the conquerer is.
There is a lot of that going on at the moment between Russia and Ukraine, Israel and Palestine.
New lines are being drawn and the peoples of the world are migrating to many different places.

America used to be Mexico and France and Apache land and all the tribal names.
But then through peace time and war the country became America.
History is fascinating.

Who are the Americans?

We don't have one nationality, one creed. We are many from all over the world.
We are One Nation Under God, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for All.

That sounds like the promise of a promised land.
And look what it's become.. unrecognizable. A cup overflowing with heathen and sin.
And yet among the darkness there are stars that shine their light among men.
We are a scattered people brought together for the purpose of serving God and yet what we do is serve ourselves.
We are the chosen turned heathen.

Turn, turn, turn.....

who knows which way the wind will blow..
only God knows.

Hugs

Again, we are talking about the New Testament and you are in Genesis which has nothing to do with what God wroth in Christ Jesus when He raised him out from among the dead.

 

[Peterlag]

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Your commentary?

The phrase in Isaiah 9:6 that most English versions translate as “Mighty God” is el gibbor in the Hebrew. That very phrase, in the plural form, is used in Ezekiel 32:21 of “heroes” and mighty men. The NIV translates the phrase in Ezekiel as “mighty leaders,” and the KJV and NASB translate it as “the strong among the mighty.” The Hebrew phrase, when used in the singular, can refer to one “mighty leader” just as when used in the plural it can refer to many “mighty leaders.”

There is no justification in the context of Isaiah 9 for believing that this verse refers to the Messiah as part of the Trinity. It refers to God’s appointed ruler. The opening verse of the chapter foretells a time when “there will be no more gloom for those who were in anguish.” All war and death will cease, and “every boot of the tramping warrior… and the garments rolled in blood…will be fuel for the fire” (Isaiah 9:5). How will this come to pass? The chapter goes on: “for to us a child is born” (Isaiah 9:6). There is no hint that this child will be “God” and reputable Trinitarian scholars will assert that the Jews of the Old Testament knew nothing of an “incarnation.” For them, the Messiah was going to be a man anointed by God.

He would start as a child, which of course Yahweh, their eternal God, could never be. And what a great ruler this man would grow to be: “the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero, Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace.” Furthermore, “he will reign on David’s throne (Isaiah 9:7), which could never be said of God. God could never sit on David’s throne. But God’s Messiah, “the Son of David,” could (Matthew 9:27). Thus, a study of the verse in its context reveals that it does not refer to the Trinity at all, but to the Messiah, the son of David and the Son of God.

 

[Ziggy]

There is no difference between Genesis and the Gospels.
It's the same story just different characters.
You can't take Genesis out of the Gospel.
And you can't take the Gospel out of Genesis.
They are twins.
1Co 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This is deep.

Quickening:

1. of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life.

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall G2227 ➔ also quicken G2227 your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall G2227 ➔ all be made alive. G2227

This is the same as the "letter of the law written with pen and ink vs the spirit which is written in our hearts.

It's the same story. The neverending story of life.

I keep going back to Genesis is like saying I keep going back to the Gospels.
There is no difference between the two.
Except one. And that is Jesus Christ he is the door from the OT to the NT.
And yet he is still Adam.

God caused a great sleep to fall upon Adam and he took a rib and made a woman.
God caused a great sleep to fall upon Jesus and from his body he created the church.

Still working on the rib... bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh...

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Jhn 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

So back to Genesis...
Jesus took on him the (spiritual) seed of the heathen/gentile.. Abraham.
Born under the (flesh and bone) seed of Judah..under the law.

Jesus was born both of flesh and blood and a quickening spirit. He was both Jew and Gentile.
Blows the mind doesn't it?
Not at all what we've been taught to cause divisions amongst us.

So if you are in Christ you are Abraham's seed.
You have been quickened..or born again.
Translated from the first Adam into the last Adam.

Here is another...
The circle of life is neverending...

Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

watch:

Rev 17:15
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

If you read the book of Jeremiah you can witness how the earth became void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Jer 4:23
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24
I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25
I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26
I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Gen 1:3
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Jhn 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Gen 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Mar 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

I could go on forever lol...

There is no Gospel without Genesis and there is no Genesis without the Gospel.
They are one in the same story. Everlasting, neverending, eternal truth.
And everything in between tells the same story in detail of how we got from one age to the next age.

Eph 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

Enjoy!

 

[covenantee]

The phrase in Isaiah 9:6 that most English versions translate as “Mighty God” is el gibbor in the Hebrew. That very phrase, in the plural form, is used in Ezekiel 32:21 of “heroes” and mighty men. The NIV translates the phrase in Ezekiel as “mighty leaders,” and the KJV and NASB translate it as “the strong among the mighty.” The Hebrew phrase, when used in the singular, can refer to one “mighty leader” just as when used in the plural it can refer to many “mighty leaders.”

There is no justification in the context of Isaiah 9 for believing that this verse refers to the Messiah as part of the Trinity. It refers to God’s appointed ruler. The opening verse of the chapter foretells a time when “there will be no more gloom for those who were in anguish.” All war and death will cease, and “every boot of the tramping warrior… and the garments rolled in blood…will be fuel for the fire” (Isaiah 9:5). How will this come to pass? The chapter goes on: “for to us a child is born” (Isaiah 9:6). There is no hint that this child will be “God” and reputable Trinitarian scholars will assert that the Jews of the Old Testament knew nothing of an “incarnation.” For them, the Messiah was going to be a man anointed by God.

He would start as a child, which of course Yahweh, their eternal God, could never be. And what a great ruler this man would grow to be: “the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty Hero, Father of the Coming Age, Prince of Peace.” Furthermore, “he will reign on David’s throne (Isaiah 9:7), which could never be said of God. God could never sit on David’s throne. But God’s Messiah, “the Son of David,” could (Matthew 9:27). Thus, a study of the verse in its context reveals that it does not refer to the Trinity at all, but to the Messiah, the son of David and the Son of God.

Hebrews 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 

[Zao is life]

Father of the Coming Age,

Changing the wording of scriptures to change the meaning = corrupting the scriptures, i.e twisting the Word of God. And that's what you have just done with the above few words. See further below for the real (biblical) meaning.

He would start as a child, which of course Yahweh, their eternal God, could never be.

That's absolute nonsense. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that YHWH could never become a child. Only Talmudic Jews and Muslims say that. The fact that God DID become a man is the stumbling stone - the rock offense that caused most of the Jews to stumble, and still causes many to stumble today - such as yourself.

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us." -- 2 Corinthians 5:19

Prince of Peace.” Furthermore, “he will reign on David’s throne (Isaiah 9:7), which could never be said of God. God could never sit on David’s throne.

Nonsense. Where does the Bible say God can never be the King of Israel?

But God’s Messiah, “the Son of David,” could (Matthew 9:27). Thus, a study of the verse in its context reveals that it does not refer to the Trinity at all, but to the Messiah, the son of David and the Son of God.

I become amazed by how you manage to highlight one thing while you discount the rest, and how you manage to corrupt the scriptures by twisting the meaning through changing the wording while you're about it . It's such excellent eisegesis.

So let's take a look at the scripture:

"For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
​

His NAME [shêm] shall be called:

1. Wonderful [pele']
[Strongs Hebrew] 6382 פּלא
pele'
From H6381; a miracle: - marvellous {thing} wonder ({-ful} -fully).

i. Counsellor [yâ‛ats]

ii. Mighty God ['êl gibbôr]

iii. Everlasting Father [‛ad 'âb] (NOT "Father of the coming Age" as you twisted it to mean by changing the wording, Mr. Scripture Twister)

Info @covenantee

Note: Throughout the Old Testament the word ‛ad means "forever and ever" or "everlasting", for example:-

Exodus 15:18; Numbers 24:20; Numbers 24:24; I Chronicles 28:9; Job 19:24; Job 20:4; Psalms 9:5; Psalms 9:18; Psalms 10:16; Psalms 19:9; Psalms 21:4; Psalms 21:6; Psalms 22:26; Psalms 37:29; Psalms 45:6; Psalms 45:17; Psalms 48:14; Psalms 52:8; Psalms 61:8; Psalms 83:17; Psalms 89:29; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:5; Psalms 111:3; Psalms 111:8; Psalms 111:10; Psalms 112:3; Psalms 112:9; Psalms 119:44; Psalms 132:12; Psalms 132:14; Psalms 145:1; Psalms 145:2; Psalms 145:21; Psalms 148:6; Proverbs 12:19; Proverbs 29:14; Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 26:4; Isaiah 30:8; Isaiah 45:17; Isaiah 57:15; Isaiah 64:9; Isaiah 65:18; Daniel 12:3; Amos 1:11; Micah 4:5; Micah 7:18; Habakkuk 3:6.

For @Peterlag or anyone else to choose to attempt to change the meaning of everlasting Father to "father of the coming age" is disingenuous and shameful, IMO.

iv. Prince of Peace [ώar shâlôm] (or sar shâlôm)

Now that you've told us how to interpret the words "mighty God" out of context of Isaiah 9:6-7,

1. tell us, which other human born into the world bears the name "Everlasting Father"?

2. Please explain how, in your opinion, we should interpret the words "everlasting Father" WITHOUT TWISTING THE MEANING BY CHANGING THE WORDS AS YOU DID ABOVE?
​

3. Please explain why, in your opinion, even though the words "mighty God" appear with the words "everlasting Father" in the same context, we should not interpret the words "mighty God" to be referring to God Himself?

4. By whose zeal was all this to be done, according to the prophet?
​

"There is no end of the increase of His government and peace
on the throne of David, and on His kingdom,
to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice
from now on, even forever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this." ​

5. Why is the above said of the same Man as mentioned below:

"As He says also in another place, "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

"For this Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him. To him Abraham also gave a tenth of all.

He was first by interpretation king of righteousness, and after that also king of Salem, which is king of peace,

without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest continually.
-- Hebrews 7:1-3, 17.

The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before.

"There is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him."
-- 1 Corinthians 8:6

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through the Word, and without the Word not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In the Word was life, and the life was the light of men.

And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth."
-- John 1:1-4, 14

All things are through Jesus Christ, says Paul. So my question to you is:

Who are you to separate Jesus the Son of God and Messiah of God from the pre-existent Word of God (through whom all things were created) even though the apostle Paul speaks of Jesus as the Word through whom all things were created?

Did you know that long before His incarnation He (Jesus/the Word) appeared as a man to Abraham outside Abraham's tent?
​

PS: Arguing against the Trinity because of a lack of understanding or ignorance of the scriptures is one thing, but arguing against the Trinity while twisting the scripture by changing the meaning of scripture through changing the wording of A TITLE in A NAME given to someone, is disingenuous.

 

[Zao is life]

There are no Gentile Christians mentioned in the New Testament.

"Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" -- Romans 9:24

There are Gentile Christians mentioned in Romans 11:25 also. Paul is making a very clear distinction between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians in both verses. In other places Paul refers to the Jews as "the circumcision" and the Gentiles as "the uncircumcision".

So what you keep implying is patently false. I really do not understand how you can continuously discount so much of scripture merely to push a theory which is false.

Again, you guys are not getting it. You think I'm saying all people should not read the Bible because all of it was not addressed to everyone. I'm not saying that. I'm saying we need to understand the Bible in light of to whom it was written to.

To say that it is can only be done by mixing the whole Bible together without understanding to whom it is addressed.

Of course we need to understand to whom each message is addressed, for example the message:

-- "For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people." (Isaiah 7:8) --
​

is addressed to the house of Judah (the Southern kingdom) and is talking about the house of Israel (the Northern kingdom).

But you are taking the above simple fact and using it to imply that none of it - no messages ever addressed to Israel or Judah - is meant for Christians today, and to falsely assert that the New Testament is not ever talking about Gentile Christians or Jewish Christians.

 

[Peterlag]

"Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" -- Romans 9:24

There are Gentile Christians mentioned in Romans 11:25 also. Paul is making a very clear distinction between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians in both verses. In other places Paul refers to the Jews as "the circumcision" and the Gentiles as "the uncircumcision".

So what you keep implying is patently false. I really do not understand how you can continuously discount so much of scripture merely to push a theory which is false.

Of course we need to understand to whom each message is addressed, for example the message:

-- "For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people." (Isaiah 7:8) --
​

is addressed to the house of Judah (the Southern kingdom) and is talking about the house of Israel (the Northern kingdom).

But you are taking the above simple fact and using it to imply that none of it - no messages ever addressed to Israel or Judah - is meant for Christians today, and to falsely assert that the New Testament is not ever talking about Gentile Christians or Jewish Christians.

Romans 9:24 says Jews only, but also of the Gentiles. It does not say Gentile Christians. I already mentioned Romans 11 is when Paul stopped talking about Christians and gives a couple of chapters about Israel and he tells you that in the beginning of the chapter. And so there's no patently false statements coming from me.