We are not changing the wording of Scripture. We are looking at different translations. God does not sit on Davids throne. God does not sit on anyone's throne. Only His own.
Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology
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Just throwing anything up on the wall and hoping something will stick. Let me know if you want to read a paper I put together on this subject.
You conveniently side-stepped the fact that everlasting Father does not mean "Father of the coming Age" and your "translation" (which you do not mention which version of the scriptures it comes from), is a twisting of the scripture in Isaiah 9:6.
God is the King of Israel who sits on David's throne in the person of Jesus Christ. Your twisting of scripture by changing the wording does not change scripture.
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All Jews and Gentiles who belong to Christ are Christians, so your above argument is a nothing-burger, and the argument below is simply false (patently false) - as anyone who has ever read Romans 11 can see:
All Jews and Gentiles who belong to Christ are Christians. Just because Paul does not call the Jews and the Gentiles in Christ "Christians", i.e "Jewish Christians" in Romans 11:5, and "Gentile Christians" in Romans 11:17 & 25,
does not mean Paul has "stopped talking about Christians" in Romans 11. It's a most ridiculous argument, and one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever seen. The common understanding of the word "Christian" ever since Acts 11:26 till today means that everyone except you understands that Paul was talking about Jewish and Gentile CHRISTIANS in Romans 9:24 and Romans 11:5, 17 & 25.
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
The difference between the first Adam and the last Adam is The first Adam chose knowledge of good and evil, where the last Adam IS the tree of Life.
And this goes together with Solomon:
1Ki 3:10
And the speech pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked this thing.
1Ki 3:11
And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;
1Ki 3:12
Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.
1Ki 3:13
And I have also given thee that which thou hast not asked, both riches, and honour: so that there shall not be any among the kings like unto thee all thy days.
1Ki 3:14
And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.
Adam and Eve TOOK of the tree of knowledge, they did not ask.
And God blocked the way to the tree of life.. why?
Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Jesus said:
Jhn 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn 10:8
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Jhn 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Jhn 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
The first man Adam was made a living soul, he did not have everlasting life within himself. He was barred from the tree of life.
Because they Took, Stole, what God had said they couldn't have.
Everyone ever born has this seed of Adam which brings death. Lying, stealing, coveting what belongs to others... born in sin through Adam's seed.
The Last man Adam was born a quickening spirit, in that he has Life within himself. Jesus IS the tree of Life.
Genesis and the Gospels walk hand in hand, no matter how you disect it.
Just thinking...
Hugs
We have been thinking some of these exact same things simultaneously.
Ephesians 5
30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.
31 "For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh."
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eve added a little: ".. neither shall ye touch it",
and took away a little: "lest you die" (as opposed to will definitely die).
Unfortunately part of the church is still doing the same, even today.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I know it seems like I'm changing the topic but I'm really not.
We talking about replacement theory so I'm trying to stay aligned with that theme.
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil:
Luk 14:1
And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
Luk 14:2
And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
Luk 14:3
And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:4
And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
Luk 14:5
And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:6
And they could not answer him again to these things.
The First Adam ruled by The law of the knowledge of good and evil.
This is the power that ruled over Israel in the days that Jesus was born.
The tree of life had been kept hid from them until this time.
Gen 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
This is the vail over Moses face:
2Co 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Verse 16 is the ultimate replacement theory.
The penalty of death, or the sentence that was given to the First Adam was coming to an end.
We are on parole.. kind of.
anywhooo..
Hugs
We talking about replacement theory so I'm trying to stay aligned with that theme.
Gen 2:9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil:
Luk 14:1
And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
Luk 14:2
And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
Luk 14:3
And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:4
And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
Luk 14:5
And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:6
And they could not answer him again to these things.
The First Adam ruled by The law of the knowledge of good and evil.
This is the power that ruled over Israel in the days that Jesus was born.
The tree of life had been kept hid from them until this time.
Gen 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
This is the vail over Moses face:
2Co 3:12
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Verse 16 is the ultimate replacement theory.
The penalty of death, or the sentence that was given to the First Adam was coming to an end.
We are on parole.. kind of.
anywhooo..
Hugs
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Maybe we should start a study. This rabbit hole goes deep. And I think you and I think a lot alike.
Connecting the dots between Genesis, the Gospel, and Revelation.
The was, The is, And that which is to come.
Hugs
I agree, and I'm enjoying what you post - A LOT!
Yes to all. All of what you posted, including your exposition of the veil over Moses' face above, is absolutely mind-blowing:
Romans 7
10 And the commandment, which was to life, was found to be death to me.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
2 But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
I agree, we should start a thread on this topic. But I can't contribute to that a whole lot today.
If you start a thread on it, please info me @F.O.G in your OP
Talking about "fog", everything you say in your post I quoted here is truly fog-lifting and uplifting all at the same time. I learned something more and deeper today
Much appreciated. That was solid food. Keep sharing.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Mat 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mar 9:37
Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.
Mar 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
We need to become as little children to enter in.
When we recieve a child we are recieving the Lord.
And the Kingdom of God is made up of little children.
But you say that God could never be a child...
I suppose God would have to become a child to know what a child thinks how they act, how they grow...
But not God, he could never do that even though the Bible says, with God all things are possible.
ok
Jesus prayed, Jesus asked, Jesus showed us the example of how we should approach his throne.
We must be willing to learn, willing to grow, and learn how to act all over again.
We can't take the old ways we learned from the past before we were saved and expect those ideas and actions to carry over into a new way of life.
We need to begin again. Be born again. Become as little children and listen and learn.
It's hard when your a grown up with all this pre knowledge and education and experience, to just put it all on the wayside and start over.
I get it. We are pretty much set in our ways. Stubborn even.
But Jesus says unless you take up your cross and die to the old ways of doing things, your not getting into heaven.
So God became a child and walked among mankind and showed us how we are change from being an adult to becoming a child.
We dont take, we ask. We don't assume, we pray. We trust, we have faith, we have hope. We learn new things new ways all over again.
We learn to walk in righteousness (right ways) instead of in sin (wrong ways) .
It's a tall order for people who have lived in the world for many years doing it their way.
I get it.
Hugs
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Davy
Well-Known Member
What you are doing is 'double-speak'.
Only orthodox 'unbelieving' Jews think what you just said. Your words suggest a nation of Israel independent of Christianity. That is a doctrine of UNBELIEVING JEWS of Judaism.
Anyone... who rejects the Biblical FACT that Christ's Church via the NEW COVENANT is where God's covenants and promises wound up, is against CHRISTIANITY and Christ's Church! Simple as that!
Hey, FOTG, hope you are well! You said this to @Peterlag, and I felt compelled to comment on this:
I don't think he's purposely twisting Scripture or changing the wording, but rather just misunderstanding, as so many do, what it means to "sit on David's throne."
Christ Jesus's "sitting on David's throne," I think you will agree ~ does not mean that He does or will literally sit in the chair that David sat in at any time, but rather that He does and will reign over God's Israel (Greater Israel, which includes all of God's elect) in the same way as David did over the Israelites (Lesser Israel, which included only the physical nation of Israel ~ with a few foreigners included ~ before the coming of Jesus two millennia ago). In this way, David is a type/shadow of the true forever King of true Israel to come.
But again, it's about His position as King of Israel ~ which of course is His current position, as He Himself said on several occasions :) ~ not about a physical chair/throne in Jerusalem or anywhere else. :) Again, so many misunderstand this, for various reasons.
Grace and peace to you.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That above is really just an 'assumption' from men's doctrines, similar to creating allegories about events in God's Word that are meant literally.
Some today go ever farther than you did, with claiming Jesus is right now sitting on David's throne in Heaven, when in reality per God's Word, David's throne represents an 'earthly' throne. That's why in all but one Scripture, Jesus is described as now sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven, still expecting, until all enemies are made His footstool.
Therefore, the matter is very simple. Will the nation of Israel as a kingdom again literally exist on earth in Christ's future Kingdom, with His promise to His 12 Apostles that they each would sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel? Will that happen literally on earth???
YES! You bet it will! as written. Though Lord Jesus may go back and forth between Heaven and earth during His coming literal reign over all nations on earth, David's throne He is to inherit will be here on earth.
So please, none of man's peace-love-dove living up in the clouds theories that are not written in God's Word.
You brought up two points.
Point #2: To me it makes no difference "where" His seat will be on earth in the NHNE, because his throne will be in our midst forevermore. I don't believe in a restored temple in this Jerusalem that we now know, after the return of Christ - and I believe the N.T points to a literal thousand years - but it's not the subject of this thread, so I don't want to say why in this post or in any post in this thread.
Your first point: Nowhere do any of the main translations of the Bible change everlasting Father in Isa.9:6 to "father of the coming Age". I find it strange that the changed wording has been at the very least misquoted (i,e changed) by him in such a way as to agree with the non-Trinitarian doctrine he is pushing, whereas leaving the wording as it is, negates what he was saying - and he only responded using that scripture with its changed wording (changed by him) when another poster (who believes in the Trinity) quoted it.
Anyway you believe what you will after giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I was only responding to what he said after he (in my opinion) very purposefully changed the wording of such an important (regardig the Trinity) passage of scripture in order to negate that the Son in Isa.9:6 is referring to God. None of the main translations of the Bible give the rendering he used, so there's no excuse. He also did not quote which "version/translation of the Bible" he was using.
Well, opinions are like noses... :)
Well, sitting in the seat of David's kingship over Israel ~ again, in the Greater sense. And He is.
The idea that Jesus is actually sitting on God's hand is ridiculous, of course. :) That's what people who are not really thinking are thinking.
Weeeeeeelllllll... yes and no. See above. But it's not about a literal chair in a physical location. See above.
On the Father's right hand means in the Father's power, not literally on His hand. :) God is Spirit (John 4:24), and therefore does not have a physical body as men (or Jesus) do.
It should be, and is, really, yes. However... :)
Um, well, yes, of course, but "as written" is where... difficulties (not God's, of course; human "difficulties")... can and do arise.
Well, except for the back and forth thing, I agree. Who is your King, Davy? Right now. And forever, too, of course, but right now. Who is your King?
I... don't even know what this means... LOL!
Grace and peace to you.
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I did? :)
Okay, sure. Yeah, I kind of picture Jesus always out among His people... :) And He will forever be our King... :) Maybe He and I will have a round of golf together, at, say, Pebble Beach, since we have eternity to do that... :) And maybe I'll even beat Him...
Hm. Well, in a sense I agree, but in another not so much. But in any case, not a physical building. We are the temple. And that temple is under construction now. :) Which Paul explicitly states at the end of Ephesians 2:
"So then (we) are no longer strangers and aliens, but (we) are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:19-22).
Well, I do too, but not a literal 365.000 day period. And much of it ~ maybe most of it ~ has already passed.
Fair enough.
Well if that's what Peterlag did, then I agree with you, but I wasn't really speaking to that anyway. I mean hey, I would call Him "everlasting Father" right now, and, well, maybe not, but I'm thinking you would too...
Fair enough.
Grace and peace to you.
Gabriel _Arch
Well-Known Member
Okay you opened my eyes to a lot, earlier today. Here's the basis of this study. I'll link the scriptures to it later.Maybe we should start a study. This rabbit hole goes deep. And I think you and I think a lot alike.
Connecting the dots between Genesis, the Gospel, and Revelation.
The was, The is, And that which is to come.
Hugs
@Ziggy This is a (necessary edit) to the above statement: The Lord opened my eyes to a few things regarding the tree of knowledge of good and evil, using what you said earlier today.
As you said, it is very deep. let me know when you see this, if you also see things this way, it would be good to know what you think. Maybe you can place it up in your coffee place, or in a thread?
The tree of knowledge of good and evil vs. the tree of life
Fruit
The fruit of the knowledge of good and evil = man's conceited, unwise "production of eternal life in himself" through his production of his own (self) righteousness, through obedience to the good ("thou shalt") and refraining from the evil ("thou shalt not").
It results in death, just like the law which provides the knowledge of good and evil, but cannot produce eternal life because man's sin renders him/us incapable of producing the righteousness that could produce eternal life.
The fruit of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus = eternal life in Christ produced through His righteousness, and it's the evidence of someone abiding in the Vine (Christ) because Christ's righteousness is produced in the one who abides in Him, and it fulfills what is good and does not do what is evil (it fulfills the law).
Man's (the creature's) eternal life is in Christ His Creator, who alone is immortal, and who alone has (eternal life ) in Himself, and who alone possesses the keys of death and hades.
Man cannot produce eternal life in himself (become like God or "make himself like the Most High"). The words "You will not surely die" (if you partake of the knowledge of good and evil) and the lie that if we do "you will be like God, knowing good and evil" are a lie from the beginning - because only God (Christ is the Word of God) is able to produce that righteousness through always doing the good and always refraining from the evil, which is the righteousness of God that from eternity has produced eternal life in God, in Christ, our Creator.
This is why Jesus said we need to abide in Him, and if we do, we will produce much fruit - but without Him, we can do nothing - but will be cast out as a branch and become withered (we will surely die).
And the lie Adam and Eve believed was that they would NOT surely die, but instead would become like God (make themselves like the Most High) - like God who alone is immortal and who alone has eternal life in Himself, and Adam and Eve believed that they could produce this eternal-life producing righteousness themselves through their obedience to the good and refraining from the evil, even though the moment they turned aside from the Word of God ("You will surely die") and turned to the lie, they stopped abiding in the Word of God (Christ, the Vine).
So in order to save us all from everlasting death, HE came and did on behalf of man what we cannot do, AND He took our transgression and sin upon Himself, becoming a curse for us, shedding His blood and dying - and abolishing forever in His flesh when He died, the Old Covenant of law that was based on obedience to the good and refraining from the evil, and ushering in the New Covenant in His blood, which is based solely on faith in Him and abiding in Him through faith in Him, in His Word, and in His righteousness - who is "the LORD our righteousness" .
Our immortality/eternal life will never be in ourselves, because we are the creature, so we ourselves trying to produce the righteousness that is produced by obedience to the good and refraining from the evil (the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil), which in turn produces eternal life, will always bring death to us, because only God can do that (always do the good and always refrain from the evil), and has done so from all eternity.
His Spirit must abide in us and we must abide in Him so that His fruit - the fruit of the Spirit, can be produced in us. God breathing life into Adam.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
What Scripture do you use to back up the claim there was a seperate nation of Israel from all your Christians on earth prior to the birth of Christ?
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