Fifty translators have rendered a unanimous verdict for God.
Romans 11 and the real Replacement Theology
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Do you think that God will seize the opportunity and evict Christ from the throne?
Fifty translators have rendered a unanimous verdict for God.
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All our translations are from the Masoretic Hebrew text, which dates from around 1,000 A.D.
The Septuagint is an entirely different manuscript.
The Septuagint is a Koine Greek translation made in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, and like the Dead Sea Scrolls (which date to the 3rd century BC), and the Peshitta (a Syriac translation made in the 2nd century AD), contains some notable differences with the Masoretic text in parts of the Old Testament scriptures.
The Masoretic text also differs with all the others on the amount of years some of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament lived.
The Septuagint, the Peshitta, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Samaritan Pentateuch, and Jospehus' records in his works - which are all older by hundreds of years than the Masoretic text - all agree on the ages of the Patriarchs when they died, but differ from the Masoretic text (hence from our Bibles). They also all agree regarding the amount of years the Israelites spent in Egypt from the time of Joseph to the time of Moses, but differ from the Masoretic text. Archeological discoveries also disagree with the Masoretic text with regard to the amount of years that the Israelites spent in Egypt from the time of Joseph to the time of Moses, but agree with all the others.
The Septuagint has been rejected as scriptural by mainstream Rabbinic Judaism for several reasons:-
* The Septuagint differs from the Hebrew source texts in many cases (particularly in the Book of Job).
* The translations appear at times to demonstrate an ignorance of Hebrew idiomatic usage.
* In Isaiah 7:14, the Hebrew word עַלְמָה (‘almāh, which translates into English as "young woman") is translated into the Koine Greek as παρθένος (parthenos, which translates into English as "virgin"). The rabbis of Judaism wanted to distinguish their tradition from the emerging tradition of Christianity, which relied heavily on the Septuagint.
So our friend here is using texts that neither the Jews nor the Christians use for our Bibles, in order to argue against the Trinity. Apparently he wants us to believe the Septuagint rendering of Isaiah 9:6-7 is more reliable than the Masoretic text, just because it exists in older manuscripts. Yet the Septuagint text for Isaiah 9:6-7 neither confirms nor negates his assertions.
Updated KJV
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."
Septaugint
"A child was born for us, a son also given to us, whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder, and he is named Messenger of Great Counsel, for I will bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health to him.
His sovereignty is great, and his peace has no boundary upon the throne of Dauid and his kingdom, to make it prosper and to uphold it with righteousness and with judgment from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord Sabaoth will do these things."
I still do not know where @Peterlag gets his rendering of everlasting father as father of the coming age from. It seems it's just his own invention, because it's neither in the Septuagint nor in the Masoretic text.
The Septuagint is an entirely different manuscript.
The Septuagint is a Koine Greek translation made in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, and like the Dead Sea Scrolls (which date to the 3rd century BC), and the Peshitta (a Syriac translation made in the 2nd century AD), contains some notable differences with the Masoretic text in parts of the Old Testament scriptures.
The Masoretic text also differs with all the others on the amount of years some of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament lived.
The Septuagint, the Peshitta, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Samaritan Pentateuch, and Jospehus' records in his works - which are all older by hundreds of years than the Masoretic text - all agree on the ages of the Patriarchs when they died, but differ from the Masoretic text (hence from our Bibles). They also all agree regarding the amount of years the Israelites spent in Egypt from the time of Joseph to the time of Moses, but differ from the Masoretic text. Archeological discoveries also disagree with the Masoretic text with regard to the amount of years that the Israelites spent in Egypt from the time of Joseph to the time of Moses, but agree with all the others.
The Septuagint has been rejected as scriptural by mainstream Rabbinic Judaism for several reasons:-
* The Septuagint differs from the Hebrew source texts in many cases (particularly in the Book of Job).
* The translations appear at times to demonstrate an ignorance of Hebrew idiomatic usage.
* In Isaiah 7:14, the Hebrew word עַלְמָה (‘almāh, which translates into English as "young woman") is translated into the Koine Greek as παρθένος (parthenos, which translates into English as "virgin"). The rabbis of Judaism wanted to distinguish their tradition from the emerging tradition of Christianity, which relied heavily on the Septuagint.
So our friend here is using texts that neither the Jews nor the Christians use for our Bibles, in order to argue against the Trinity. Apparently he wants us to believe the Septuagint rendering of Isaiah 9:6-7 is more reliable than the Masoretic text, just because it exists in older manuscripts. Yet the Septuagint text for Isaiah 9:6-7 neither confirms nor negates his assertions.
Updated KJV
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."
Septaugint
"A child was born for us, a son also given to us, whose sovereignty was upon his shoulder, and he is named Messenger of Great Counsel, for I will bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health to him.
His sovereignty is great, and his peace has no boundary upon the throne of Dauid and his kingdom, to make it prosper and to uphold it with righteousness and with judgment from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord Sabaoth will do these things."
I still do not know where @Peterlag gets his rendering of everlasting father as father of the coming age from. It seems it's just his own invention, because it's neither in the Septuagint nor in the Masoretic text.
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Nowhere did I make any statement about "all" Jews belonging to Christ or that Gentiles are all Christian. You make these statements.
I do talk about the fact that Jews who believe in Jesus and non-Jews a.k.a Gentiles who believe in Jesus are all Christians and Paul speaks about both groups in Romans 9 and Romans 11.
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The problem with the above argument is that those 50 translators are not translating the same manuscripts he is referring to. They are not referencing the Septuagint - he is.
It's like I'm talking to a wall. Romans 9 through 11 Paul stops writing about the Christian doctrine and takes a couple of chapters to speak to the Jews. All other places where Paul writes we do not read anything like Gentiles who believe in Jesus are all Christians. When I point out that we need to look at to whom it is addressed. You say the whole Bible is written to and concerning everyone. So you have a nice little story to tell but it's not biblical.
I think it's like Paul was writing to a wall when you read Romans 9 and 11 and fail to see that Paul is talking about Jewish and Gentile Christians.
The Scripture declares “all authority” was given to him in heaven and on the earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended to the right hand of God and assumed joint rulership of the cosmos as the Lord. First Corinthians 15:24-28 describes this present dynamic relationship.
“Then cometh the end, when he [Christ] shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he [Christ] shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he [Christ] must reign, till he [God] hath put all enemies under his [Christ's] feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he [God] hath put all things under his [Christ's] feet. But when he [God] said all things are put under him, [Christ] it is manifest [obvious] that he [God] is excepted, [God is the only exception] which did put all things under him [Christ].
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, [Christ] then [not now, but at some future time] shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [God] that put all things under him, [Christ] that God may be all in all."
There is no such thing as a Gentile Christian. In the New Testament you are either a...
1.) Jew
2.) Gentile
3.) Christian
Nobody is two of something just as you are not a boy girl. And that's how the Scriptures are written. So you are writing a nice little story about something but it's not biblical.
The Jews do not believe your Septuagint version and it's not used for their Tanach. Neither do our Bible translators.
Besides that, the text you quote neither proves nor disproves your assertion. So why are you pretending that the above text supports your assertions?
The throne of David is Christ's throne and Christ is God, and the Son of David (Christ) sits on God's throne.
The reason why you're so confused is because you've confused yourself by convincing yourself that Jesus is not God.
You keep showing that you do not understand that the Word of God has always accomplished the will of God the Father, and that Jesus is both God and man, the Son of God and the Son of man. It is the Son of man who will hand the Kingdom back to the Father, because Jesus is the Word of God and always accomplishes the will of the Father, and then God will once again be all things in all. One God. three persons. Trinity.
There are none righteous, no not one! If none are righteous, and none seek for God, why would they want forgiveness of sin they do not acknowledge?
God chooses according to whom He desires. I have read that mankind should not seek to answer why God chooses whom He chooses and does not choose to have mercy and compassion on the whole human race.
Romans 10:6-7 (KJV) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
You're not speaking to someone unfamiliar with the Sovereignty of God regarding those ordained to eternal life through Christ. The simple answer is that whosoever lives and believes in God shall be saved according to grace through faith, all of God, not by the will of man, but by the will of God. In this we can say, all who believe in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile are those chosen from the foundation of the world to be eternally saved through Christ.
Salvation through the Redeemer is unto whosoever believes and Paul writes they are "the Israel of God" not an ethnic people, but a people of faith. A faith that comes to fallen man by grace of God alone.
1. Jew and Christian - yes, of course, both possible, and a reality.
2. Gentile and Christian - yes of course, both possible, and a reality.
3. Christian, both Jew and Gentile, but in Christ neither Jew, nor Gentile.
Christian refers to Christ-ian. Someone who believes in Christ, Jew or Gentile.
There's something wrong with that primary school you went to. The arithmetic they taught you makes you believe that 1+1=5.
I was in agreement until you say the righteousness of God through faith was ever promised to ethnic Israel. The promise of righteousness of God through faith is only for those of ethnic Israel of faith. That's why Paul writes the hardness to them is only in part, because those of faith are not in hardness and unbelief as are those are. Paul NEVER says the partial hardening in part of ethnic Israel shall be lifted when the fullness of Gentiles is complete. Paul says only that Israel of faith shall be complete by the fullness of Gentiles grafted into the good olive tree (Christ), and that is how "all Israel" of faith shall be saved. It is in this manner, or this is how the spiritual Kingdom of God shall be completed,, through the Gentiles of faith being grafted into the Kingdom of God with Jews of faith for they are the "Israel of God."
God has never promised eternal life to anyone who is not of faith! The only part of ethnic Israel promised God's mercy are those of faith! God has not promised to restore the ethnic nation called Israel. Paul does not say they would be restored in this age or the one to come.
Nowhere does Paul say that ethnic Israel now and past in unbelief shall one day be saved by believing in their Messiah! If mankind is not saved by grace through faith before the sounding of the seventh trumpet, whosoever is still in unbelief then, will be utterly destroyed by the fire of God that shall come down from heaven. They will not be another opportunity for Israel in unbelief or anyone else still in unbelief to be saved when time given this earth is finished, and Christ returns for His people.
Where in this verse does Paul say the partial hardening of ethnic Israel shall be removed? He does not say this! Paul writes only that "all Israel" that shall be saved is when the fullness of Gentiles has come in with them. IOW when the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that is now being built as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world in the power of the Holy Spirit is complete, then "all Israel shall be saved", NOT an ethnic people but ALL people of faith.
Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Paul has already said it was his desire that SOME of his ethnic seed might be saved. It was through the diminishing of Israel in unbelief that brought riches (salvation) to the Gentiles that might bring fullness to his countrymen of faith. How? By preaching salvation through Christ to Gentiles and some of them too being saved, Paul's biological seeds would be provoked to emulate the Gentiles of faith as they too now proclaim Christ unto Jews in unbelief. Through the Gospel proclaimed by Gentiles of faith to unbelieving Jews, which is where the proclamation of the Gospel began, through Gentiles of faith, SOME, not ALL of ethnic Israel in unbelief might turn from unbelief to believing in Christ for eternal life.
Romans 11:12-14 (KJV) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
The prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Christ came. There is no mention of a seven year agreement with Israel and some Antichrist, nor is there a last seven years to begin.
When the fullness of the Gentiles is complete, the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven shall be complete and the seventh and final trumpet shall sound and time given this earth shall be no longer. Today is the time for be saved. If mankind from any nation is not saved before time given this earth expires, there is no more hope for them. Now, since the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, is the time for salvation.
Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
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Find a verse outside of Romans 9 through 11 that says Gentile Christian. In fact, give me a verse that says that anywhere.
But there are problems with that such as there is no single verse that says Jesus was both God and man and that's why the God-man doctrine is built from many verses.
Do you believe when Gentiles become Christians they are no longer identified by their country of origin? It seems silly for me to say, but when a Gentile becomes a Christian, I don't have to read "Gentile Christian" explicitly to understand they are believers in Christ. Do you believe you've proven something by asking where the particular phrase "Gentile Christian" is found in the Bible?
Yes, using many verses from Scripture CONFIRMS a correct understanding! It's taking a verse here and there out of context to try to prove an assumed doctrine that proves error.
I already gave you the verses. The verses do not have to specify they're talking about Gentile Christians just because they are talking about Gentile Christians. Nor do they have to use the word Christians even though the verses are talking about Jewish and Gentile Christians.
@Peterlag The following verses are talking about Jewish and Gentile Christians. See if you can find the word "Christians".
22 And the Word was heard in the ears of the church in Jerusalem. And they sent out Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch;
23 who was glad when he had come and had seen the grace of God. And he exhorted all with purpose of heart to remain near to the Lord.
24 For he was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit and faith. And many people were added to the Lord.
25 And Barnabas went out to Tarsus to seek Saul.
26 And finding him, it was a whole year they were gathered to them in the church and taught a considerable crowd. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
-- Acts 11
1. Jewish Christians: Romans 9:24; Romans 11:5-32.
2. Gentile Christians: Romans 9:24; Romans 11:17-32.
3. Jewish and Gentile Christians: All of the above.
If you don't mind my saying so, I find your argument against the obvious really weird. It's like if someone gives you an article to read about Abraham Lincoln but isn't calling him "President Lincoln" and you saying, "It's not talking about Abraham Lincoln, because it's not calling him President Lincoln. If it does not say President Lincoln then it's not talking about President Lincoln."
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