"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.

[Ferris Bueller]

BUT HEY, if you be WILLING to OPEN both of your ears and HEAR the Offering God has Presented to you, for you.......IT’S A ONE TIME GIFT of absolute ASSURANCE you will NEVER Fall Away FROM Belief and Faith-FULL in the Lord God Almighty.

@Behold says this is not true. He says you CAN fall away in unbelief.
He says you can cast away your faith in unbelief, but that you remain saved.
This is the NEW OSAS teaching invading the church at this time.

 

[Taken]

To hold fast to the word means hanging on to the truth.
We are to hold on to the truth that we heard in the beginning.
No one who casts the truth behind him in unbelief will inherit the kingdom.


How does hanging on to the truth make a person a target of deceitful men? It's apparent that the exact opposite is true. Hanging on to the truth protects one from the deceits of wicked men, not makes one vulnerable to them.

It seems to be changing What exactly are you “holding fast to” ...
your belief?
the word?
the truth?
your faith?

And the Scripture?

 

[Taken]

@Behold says this is not true. He says you CAN fall away in unbelief.
He says you can cast away your faith in unbelief, but that you remain saved.

Reference?

This is the NEW OSAS teaching invading the church at this time.

Reference?

 

[Taken]

"24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father."
​

IF, what you HEARD remains in you, you remain in the Son and in the Father.

And? IF, what you HEARD does not remain in you, you therefore DO NOT remain in the Son and in the Father?

IS, that your point of HOLDING ON?
Holding ON to what you HEARD?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It seems to be changing What exactly are you “holding fast to” ...
your belief?
the word?
the truth?
your faith?

And the Scripture?

You cling to the hope of the gospel, the word of faith delivered to you through the testimony the Holy Spirit. The scriptures refer to this as holding on to faith, holding on to what you heard, holding on to your profession of hope, holding on to the word.

 

[Behold]

1 Peter 3:21

Thats Spiritual Baptism, not the city water suppy, Marymog.

Baptized in the SPIRIT, (with the Holy Spirit) is how God creates the new birth.

The WASHING of REGENERATION... not the washing of water.

"regeneration" is the act of converting the "dead spirit" into the BORN AGAIN Spirit, that is accomplished by the HOLY Spirit......not by the city water supply.

Water can't cause your spirit to be born again.
Water is just water., and if it could save you then we'd all be saved when we took a bath or shower.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

IF, what you HEARD remains in you, you remain in the Son and in the Father.

And? IF, what you HEARD does not remain in you, you therefore DO NOT remain in the Son and in the Father?

IS, that your point of HOLDING ON?
Holding ON to what you HEARD?

That is what the scriptures say, and what happens if you don't.
You can't reject faith in the word of the hope of the gospel.
The old OSAS teachings said true believers never will reject it, and if they do, they were never real believers to begin with.
The NEW OSAS teaching says true believers can reject it, and if they do they remain in the Son and the Father and the promise of eternal life.

Personally, I don't have a problem with someone believing the old, original teaching about OSAS and whether or not the true believer can stop believing. What I have a huge problem with, because it's destroying the church, is the NEW OSAS that has unbelievers inheriting the kingdom of God, making people oblivious to the cold, hard fact that no unbeliever will ever set foot in the kingdom of God. They will be put on the left of Jesus when he returns and they will go into the lake of fire.

 

[Behold]

@Behold says this is not true. He says you CAN fall away in unbelief.
.

Yes, James calls this "dead faith".

If you have a bible, read that sometimes.. Ferris.

Just remember that if you have dead faith, and are born again, then whatever is the issue in you HEAD, in your THINKING that has become your faith crisis, came AFTER God has already accepted the faith of the BELIEVER, and they are ALREADY "In Christ", "one with God", "seated in heavenly places" as a SON/Daughter of GOD.....having become this..ALREADY...

= "as CHRIST IS......so are the BORN AGAIN....in THIS WORLD"..

 

[Behold]

You cling to the hope of the gospel,

No.

You simply believe that God is "faithful to complete the salvation that He has begun in all the born again".

Philippians 1:6

You simply BELIEVE Jesus who said the born again shall "NEVER PERISH".

You simply believe that because Jesus is in you, and You are "in Christ" that this is your ETERNAL LIFE.

Salvation is not holding unto faith.
Salvation is God taking full responsibility to save you and keep you saved based on God as Christ on the Cross providing the eternal means through His Blood Atonement that does it.

Salvation is accomplished 2000 yrs ago on the Cross.
It is applied to the BELIEVER, and they HAVE IT....ITs eternal because Eternal God created it.
If it was not Complete and ETERNAL then its USELESS..
But thank God that His Blood Atonement, is absolutely our Eternal Security

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Just remember that if you have dead faith, and are born again, then whatever is the issue in you HEAD, in your THINKING that has become your faith crisis, came AFTER God has already accepted the faith of the BELIEVER, and they are ALREADY "In Christ", "one with God", "seated in heavenly places" as a SON/Daughter of GOD.....having become this..ALREADY...

Then you have no choice but to conclude that the person who once believed but does not now loses their salvation, or never had it to begin with, for James says dead faith CAN NOT SAVE (James 2:14). Which, by the way, Paul affirms in his writings. He says the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that manifests itself in the obedience to love others:

"The only thing that counts (towards being made righteous) is faith..."
​

What kind of faith does that? This kind...

"...faith expressing itself through love." Galatians 5:6​

The faith that saves is the faith that is then seen and manifest in the obedience to God to love others. If it doesn't do that (i.e. James' dead faith) then that person does not have the faith that saves. They just think they do. They either had it and lost it, or they never had it to begin with. Take your pick, doesn't matter, for the truth remains that they do not have it now and are, therefore, an unbeliever. And, contrary to your confident but erroneous assertion, unbelievers do NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Their dead, works-less faith showing that they do not have the faith that, all by itself, makes a person righteous. They are still in their sins. They are not converted. They are not born again. If they were they wouldn't have dead faith.

This is why I say, since you're bound and determined to hold to a OSAS belief, you're better off going back to the original OSAS teaching. At least it didn't falsely teach that there are justified, born again Christians with faith that doesn't express itself through love. And preserves the Bible's repeated exhortation and warning to hold fast to the word of the gospel in faith to the very end in order to remain in the Son and the Father and the promise of eternal life.

 

[theefaith]

By definition salvation (being the gift of eternal life), is forever.

Still, there are many who are confused by the ongoing sin of people who claim to be saved. This is a great misunderstanding-- but it does not mean that salvation can be lost. And yes, there are many scriptures that can be cherry picked and presented to argue the point...but that does not take anyone who is actually saved, having been born [again] of the spirit of God, out of His hand, or that they can loose their salvation, because: It is no longer you who live, but God who lives-- salvation means you gave you life to God...and God is forever.

Yes, there are many ways you can ho hum your way around thinking about actually giving your life to God, but if and when you totally do surrender your life to God and give it to Him, it is finished: You are forever "in God" and He in you--and He is forever.

"God is the same yesterday, today, and forever."​

So...now the matter of ongoing sin:

Just as Peter, having been "washed clean" by Christ, was embodied by Satan, causing Jesus to say "Get behind me Satan" to Peter...after we are born again of the spirit of God we can sin in the flesh without loosing our salvation-- Why? Because "we are alive and remain" in the world. This is the stumbling block that causes people to believe they can lose their salvation. But, again, this is a misunderstanding of what actually occurs. At no other time in history, not even those times when most of the scriptures were written, have people died and lived on in the flesh. These are those times...and the terms are different. And yes, it is written of in the scriptures-- If you don't know of them, keep searching, nocking, and asking.

Nonetheless, if you are saved, having been born again of the spirit of God, it is no longer you who lives, but God who lives...and He is forever. While you remain in the world...your old flesh is still subject to death and decay..and sin. But that body of flesh is passing away, just as all the world is passing away...and this is why we are counselled to remain faithful to the end--because it is as if we have been left in the grave, in death...without which we could not survive without faith and the knowledge that it is no longer we who live, but God who lives in us.

And we are here to serve--that is why we are left in the world...not to act out of our fleshly old bodies, but rather, to walk in the newness of life-- that life we have been given in the Spirit. Walk in the spirit.

So, yes, it is a daily labor to keep the old flesh under subordination of the spirit of God. But it is in Him that we have the strength to do so.

Until the End.

where does the Bible say anyone is born of the spirit of God?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

where does the Bible say anyone is born of the spirit of God?

8"The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:8​

 

[Taken]

That is what the scriptures say, and what happens if you don't.
You can't reject faith in the word of the hope of the gospel.
The old OSAS teachings said true believers never will reject it, and if they do, they were never real believers to begin with.
The NEW OSAS teaching says true believers can reject it, and if they do they remain in the Son and the Father and the promise of eternal life.

Personally, I don't have a problem with someone believing the old, original teaching about OSAS and whether or not the true believer can stop believing. What I have a huge problem with, because it's destroying the church, is the NEW OSAS that has unbelievers inheriting the kingdom of God, making people oblivious to the cold, hard fact that no unbeliever will ever set foot in the kingdom of God. They will be put on the left of Jesus when he returns and they will go into the lake of fire.

There is no such thing as a new and old OSAS.

Salvation has not changed since the Beginning Of manKIND.

A BELIEVING man experiencing a BODILY DEATH IS SAVED at the TIME of his BODILY DEATH.
Once that man IS SAVED, He is SAVED Eternally!

 

[theefaith]

8"The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:8​

you’re forgetting the context including Jn 3:5 which is the biblical mandate of WATER AND THE SPIRIT!

no one is born again by the spirit alone or faith alone!

The biblical mandate of God’s work of creation!

Water and the spirit!

First creation:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

(water and the spirit)

Noah:

Gen 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove (representing the spirit) from him…

(Water and the spirit)

Red Sea:

Led thru the waters by the spirit.
Exodus 13:21
And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

(Water and the spirit)

Josuha

Joshua and the people of Israel crossing of the Jordan led by the spirit.

Joshua 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord it came to pass, that the Lord spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying, 2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.

(Water and the spirit)

Prophecy of the new creation: (new covenant)

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you…
acts 2:38-39 “this promise”

(Water and the Spirit)

Baptism of Jesus

Jn 1:31 I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

(Water and the spirit)

New creation by water and the spirit

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(Water and the spirit)

Christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration is by: WATER AND THE SPIRIT!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is no such thing as a new and old OSAS.

Yes, there is.
Right or wrong, there is indeed TWO very distinct teachings about OSAS in the church today.
You say you can't lose your salvation and will always keep believing. That's the 'P' in TULIP, the original OSAS teaching of the Reformation.
Behold says you can't lose your salvation but you can stop believing. Your unbelief and return to sin having zero effect on your salvation. That's the new Hypergrace/Freegrace teaching sweeping through the progressive churches today. It misleads people into thinking they are saved and born again and ready to meet Jesus when he comes back when they are not ready at all, their unbelieving, sinful lives being the evidence of that. Personally, I consider it a doctrine of demons. The deceitful and devilish twisting of scripture Hypergrace teaching does to defend it's theology is what convinces me it is motivated by demonic powers.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

no one is born again by the spirit alone or faith alone!

I was.
So much for your legalistic, hard and fast theology, lol.

Very few non-Catholics reject water baptism. What we reject is making the obedience of water baptism a legalistic work through which a person is rewarded justification/salvation. Faith in the promise of a Son all by itself makes a person righteous, just as it was for Abraham our example. Obedience to God's commands is the result of that faith, showing one to have that faith, and so believers are justified in that regard, too. Faith MAKES you righteous. Works SHOW you to be righteous. And so a man is justified by, both, faith and works. That is the proper understanding of 'justification' in the Bible. Catholics confuse the two and erroneously meld the two distinct meanings of justification together into a damnable works salvation gospel. That's why brave men to the peril of their lives broke free of the Catholic church. And I thank God for them.

 

[theefaith]

I was.
So much for your legalistic, hard and fast theology, lol.

Very few non-Catholics reject water baptism. What we reject is making the obedience of water baptism a legalistic work through which a person is rewarded justification/salvation. Faith in the promise of a Son all by itself makes a person righteous, just as it was for Abraham our example. Obedience to God's commands is the result of that faith, showing one to have that faith, and so believers are justified in that regard, too. Faith MAKES you righteous. Works SHOW you to be righteous. And so a man is justified by, both, faith and works. That is the proper understanding of 'justification' in the Bible. Catholics confuse the two and erroneously meld the two distinct meanings of justification together into a damnable works salvation gospel. That's why brave men to the peril of their lives broke free of the Catholic church. And I thank God for them.

you forgot your masters own words:

mark 16:16!

he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

And / and / and!!!

never “faith alone”!

And not saved either!
Shall be saved!
Matt 24:13 endures to the end “shall be saved”!!!

1 cor 13:2 all faith apart from charity avails NOTHING!

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

 

[theefaith]

I was.
So much for your legalistic, hard and fast theology, lol.

Very few non-Catholics reject water baptism. What we reject is making the obedience of water baptism a legalistic work through which a person is rewarded justification/salvation. Faith in the promise of a Son all by itself makes a person righteous, just as it was for Abraham our example. Obedience to God's commands is the result of that faith, showing one to have that faith, and so believers are justified in that regard, too. Faith MAKES you righteous. Works SHOW you to be righteous. And so a man is justified by, both, faith and works. That is the proper understanding of 'justification' in the Bible. Catholics confuse the two and erroneously meld the two distinct meanings of justification together into a damnable works salvation gospel. That's why brave men to the peril of their lives broke free of the Catholic church. And I thank God for them.

were you saved the first moment you had faith?

Mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

all had faith are all saved?

 

[ScottA]

But believing IS knowing:

"1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1​

Faith is not blind. Faith in God is knowing for sure that what you can't see really exists and is true. Faith is a supernatural 'I know for sure', not a blind "I hope this is true". For example, when Abraham put Isaac on the altar he was not saying, "I hope this is all true." He was saying, "I KNOW this is all true." His actions proving the presence of his 'I know for sure' faith. Faith is the CERTAINTY of what we do not see. And it is that faith, that knowing, that the Bible exhorts and warns us to retain and not cast aside so we can be saved from the fiery wrath of God when Jesus returns. Nobody who does not continue in faith inherits the promise.

Okay, then go to the dictionary and cross out "knowing", and go to the bible and cross out everything that is "seen."

But no--that is foolishness, the two terms are not at all the same. Thus, the example of Thomas who would not believe unless he had seen, and Jesus' explanation of the value of faith by those who have not seen but believe. Which you have just explained away as if to tell Jesus, "No need to comment Lord or make such a distinction--the one is the same as the other." But again, that is foolishness--you kid yourself.

But what does it mean if the two are in fact different--which Jesus said was indeed different, and what does it matter if one "believes" and another "knows" in regard to their salvation? It matters, because the one who only "believes" still waits for confirmation because it is not finished with them even if they believe it to be true. Which is to say that Christ is not so evident in such a person that they do not "know" Him by His presence--even if He has come in to them when He knocked and they opened the door. Which is not much faith--but little faith, the faith of one who is indeed blind to his Master who has kept His word about coming and being with them until the end of the age. But the one who "knows", knows because they "see Him as He is", which marks the day as different than those who do not see, that day that was foretold to come.

And this is why your perspective of salvation is blurred--because you not only don't see the difference in "believing" and "knowing", but you also witness against the truth.

 

[ScottA]

where does the Bible say anyone is born of the spirit of God?

Good question!

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

1 Peter 1:13-25
Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

​