Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[bbyrd009]

they speak directly to Moses wanting his name blotted out

you really think Moses wanted his name blotted out? that isn't the sense that i get there

 

[Pisteuo]

No I don't think he wanted his name out. You are correct. I think he was saying he'd rather his name be blotted out than the peoples. Or, did you have another idea?

 

[Helen]

No I don't think he wanted his name out. You are correct. I think he was saying he'd rather his name be blotted out than the peoples. Or, did you have another idea?

Agree. I also see it as a "willing sacrifice" of himself to save the people he loved. God saw his heart, and I believe God was well pleased.
Like Moses said...Who wants to go forward in this journey, without the presence of God very present with us!! That also is the cry of my own heart. Without His presence what is the point.
Thankfully God does not always require our walk to be only 'by faith'
He lovingly knows that 'now and again' we just need a wonderful dose of His 'felt' presence to remind us of the glory waiting at the end of the road..
( By the way...welcome to this forum. )

 

[Pisteuo]

Agree. I also see it as a "willing sacrifice" of himself to save the people he loved. God saw his heart, and I believe God was well pleased.
Like Moses said...Who wants to go forward in this journey, without the presence of God very present with us!! That also is the cry of my own heart. Without His presence what is the point.
Thankfully God does not always require our walk to be only 'by faith'
He lovingly knows that 'now and again' we just need a wonderful dose of His 'felt' presence to remind us of the glory waiting at the end of the road..
( By the way...welcome to this forum. )

Amen. Well said. And thank you..

 

[bbyrd009]

funny though, how it could be argued that every name was blotted out, Moses included; except for the two who made it in. Not saying i believe that though.

 

[Stranger]

Uh huh.
And God is promising to delete a person's name from the Book of Life and take away their "share" in the Tree of Life.
This is addressing SAVED people who are in danger of LOSING their salvation.

Unsaved people don't have a "share" in the Tree of Life.
Unsaved people's names are NOT written in the Book of Life and therefore could NEVER be "blotted out."

The "Overcomer" is the one who doesn't lose his salvation because he remains faithful.

As I said, the term 'tree of life' should be rendered 'book of life'. Concerning the book of life it may well be that everyones name is written in it, both the saved and unsaved, until God blots it out. So, just because one loses his part in the book of life doesn't mean he was saved and then lost. And remember the saved are not the ones being addressed here. It is anyone, everyone, and whosoever. (Rev. 22:17-19)

The 'overcomer' is 'he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God'. (John 5:5)

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

oh please--satan believes that, too

 

[BreadOfLife]

As I said, the term 'tree of life' should be rendered 'book of life'. Concerning the book of life it may well be that everyones name is written in it, both the saved and unsaved, until God blots it out. So, just because one loses his part in the book of life doesn't mean he was saved and then lost. And remember the saved are not the ones being addressed here. It is anyone, everyone, and whosoever. (Rev. 22:17-19)

The 'overcomer' is 'he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God'. (John 5:5)

Stranger

This is YOUR interpretation of things and one that only YOU believe.
I have never heard a reputable Protestant evangelist make this claim - that ALL names are in the Book of Life - then they are erased as needed.

Our names are only added to the Book of Life when we come to Christ. It is a record of those who have received eternal life.
ONLY those who come to Christ are eligible because there is only ONE way to the Father - and that is through Jesus (John 14:6).

YOU are proposing that we ALWAYS had eternal life and that is heresy.

 

[bbyrd009]

so, now we are virtually forced to consider what Stranger has suggested

 

[Job]

so, now we are virtually forced to consider what Stranger has suggested

See what happens when you talk to strangers...

 

[Stranger]

This is YOUR interpretation of things and one that only YOU believe.
I have never heard a reputable Protestant evangelist make this claim - that ALL names are in the Book of Life - then they are erased as needed.

Our names are only added to the Book of Life when we come to Christ. It is a record of those who have received eternal life.
ONLY those who come to Christ are eligible because there is only ONE way to the Father - and that is through Jesus (John 14:6).

YOU are proposing that we ALWAYS had eternal life and that is heresy.

No, what I said was that is a possibility. But what is sure is that those that are addressed are not the saved but anyone, everyone, and whosoever.

Actually it never says our names are added to the 'Book of Life'. It does say they are found written in the 'book of life'. (Rev. 13:8, 20:12). So, this 'added' is something you believe.

The 'Book of Life' doesn't give eternal life. God does through the work of the Holy Spirit, and Christ, and faith, etc. So, if everyone's name is in that book and God blots out the name of those who don't come to Christ, then in the end, the only names which remain are the believers.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Who could have guessed that we could get so 'many miles' out of the book of life.
I see that there is not only one book...but 'books'

Revelation 20

12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and 'another book' was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

We read in Matt 25:- " the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. "
So the fire was never prepared for mankind!!

I found this interesting...many believe that people burn forever and ever.
I used to believe that. But these two verses are interesting :-
Rev 20 :10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for "ever and ever."
Then in verse 14 it says:-
And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. "

So HELL is cast into the the lake of Fire...so the Fire is NOT Hell!!?
Then comes the verse we have been talking about:-
15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." ( which is not Hell...obviously!)

So, with Hell GONE...what is the lake of Fire?

 

[bbyrd009]

a symbol for "not ever happening again; no longer needed or used" perhaps.

 

[Mick_Alexander]

OK, there's a couple of problems with your view. 1) This parable is about the 2nd coming of Christ and the judgment of the OT saints, not the church. The OT believers were in the "Master-servant" relationship with God but we are in the "Father-son" relationship.

I have about 30 commentaries and not one agrees with your interpretation and there are many more on the internet which disagree with you also. They all state that it is about Jesus and the church. If you can show me one that agrees with your interpretation I will be surprised.

We are in both a Father-son and Master-servant relationship. Isn't Jesus our Lord (translatable as Master) and are we not His servants?

God bless,
Mick

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, what I said was that is a possibility. But what is sure is that those that are addressed are not the saved but anyone, everyone, and whosoever.

Actually it never says our names are added to the 'Book of Life'. It does say they are found written in the 'book of life'. (Rev. 13:8, 20:12). So, this 'added' is something you believe.

The 'Book of Life' doesn't give eternal life. God does through the work of the Holy Spirit, and Christ, and faith, etc. So, if everyone's name is in that book and God blots out the name of those who don't come to Christ, then in the end, the only names which remain are the believers.

Stranger

There is a problem with that theory:
We are born into sin (Psalm 51:5).
Gen. 8:21 says that the intent of our heart is evil from the time we are small.
Eph. 2:1-3 describes this state as being "dead in our transgressions".

We are not born into life - we are born into death. Jesus came to save us from this state.
Since we are born into death - we cannot have our names written in the Book of Life until we come to Christ.

 

[Stranger]

There is a problem with that theory:
We are born into sin (Psalm 51:5).
Gen. 8:21 says that the intent of our heart is evil from the time we are small.
Eph. 2:1-3 describes this state as being "dead in our transgressions".

We are not born into life - we are born into death. Jesus came to save us from this state.
Since we are born into death - we cannot have our names written in the Book of Life until we come to Christ.

Well, as I said, (Rev. 22:17-19) pertains to anyone, everyone, and whosoever. That means, at the least, not just the saved. So, how can those that are not saved have their part taken out of the 'book of life', if he didn't have a part.

And we are never told that our names are added to that book when we believe. And we are not told when they were written in either. Just that they are written.

What we do know is God will never blot out the believer from the 'book of life'. (Rev. 3:5), (1 John 5:5). Whether (Rev. 22:17-19) is speaking to the same thing, is questionable as it doesn't say ones name is blotted out. It says He will take away His part.

And remember, one cannot lose their salvation because of a sin. Most especially, one sin. I believe there is more here than I understand. And much more than you understand. We didn't get saved by not sinning. We got saved by belief.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

if you are in fact "saved" at all, which Scripture suggests that we are not, not any of us. "He who holds out to the end will be saved." Personally i don't even see anyone having to "hold out," at least not in our culture.

My guess is that we will be the ones hearing "remember, in your life you had all the good things..."

I have about 30 commentaries and not one agrees with your interpretation and there are many more on the internet which disagree with you also.

so, likely a point for him...

 

[bbyrd009]

We are in both a Father-son and Master-servant relationship. Isn't Jesus our Lord (translatable as Master) and are we not His servants?

possibly the point of Job? Might also be a good reflection of "Law/Grace?"

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, as I said, (Rev. 22:17-19) pertains to anyone, everyone, and whosoever. That means, at the least, not just the saved. So, how can those that are not saved have their part taken out of the 'book of life', if he didn't have a part.

And we are never told that our names are added to that book when we believe. And we are not told when they were written in either. Just that they are written.

What we do know is God will never blot out the believer from the 'book of life'. (Rev. 3:5), (1 John 5:5). Whether (Rev. 22:17-19) is speaking to the same thing, is questionable as it doesn't say ones name is blotted out. It says He will take away His part.

And remember, one cannot lose their salvation because of a sin. Most especially, one sin. I believe there is more here than I understand. And much more than you understand. We didn't get saved by not sinning. We got saved by belief.

Stranger

Rev 22:17019 pertains ONLY to thoise who have a share in the Tree of Life - the SAVED.

God can only take away somebody's share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City if he already HAD a share in it to begin with. This is talking about SAVED people who take away from or add to the words of the words of this Book.

Finally - what makes you believe that you cannot lose your salvation by sinning?
Where the the Bible make this claim?

 

[epostle1]

Well, as I said, (Rev. 22:17-19) pertains to anyone, everyone, and whosoever. That means, at the least, not just the saved. So, how can those that are not saved have their part taken out of the 'book of life', if he didn't have a part.
Stranger

I'll re-phrase your question.
How can a person have their name blotted out from the Book of Life if it wasn't there in the first place?