Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[BreadOfLife]

Thanks. I know, I totally get that. Is everyone IN , and when a person sins it gets blocked out?
Or do people get 'saved' and get put in then, but get blotted out when we sin?

1 John 1 8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

So by those scriptures it sounds a bit like "written in the book", ..blotted out of the book.... repent = so written back in!!
I have never been a fan of " save , lost, save, lost" , then saved again...doctrine!!
I still don't have a clear grasp of the Book thing. I am obviously not "hearing by the Spirit", but trying to understand it via my mind. I guess I need to pray about it more.
bless you...

The idea that we are to forgive one another as our Father in Heaven does (Matt. 6:12) - not just ponce - but an infinite number of times (Matt. 18:22) proves that we can lose and regain our salvation.

I agree with you that 1 John 1:8 shows that we are ALL sinners in need of God's grace.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Here's what I believe.

People are born with their name in the Book of Life. The heart of a new born is probably the most innocent thing in the world. I don't believe the Lord would condemn that innocence to an eternity of fire and brimstone.

The blotting out of names takes place at the moment of death. If we're born with our name in the Book and it gets blotted out during our lifetime, I don't believe we get a second chance for our name to be reinstated. I do believe however that the Lord is patient and leaves our name in the Book just in case we have a change of heart before we die. If at the time of our death we are unrepentant, our name is removed/blotted out.

This is what I believe.

Did I miss anything?h

Now - all you have to do is show us where the BIBLE says that.
Belief in the Tooth Fairy is also an opinion that needs proof . . .

 

[Job]

Bottom line, I just wish those scriptures weren't there.. ..it would be easier.

I wish there were more. Three or four verses out of the entire bible puts a strain on the brain when searching for meaning.

 

[Pisteuo]

It wasn't Moses who sinned. It was those guys he left at the bottom of the hill.

Exodus 32
7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves.
8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’”
9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people!
10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”

t

I agree. I was saying that Moses as well could've had his name blotted out by sinning against God.
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
I know you already referenced these verses but they speak directly to Moses wanting his name blotted out and God telling him how that can happen.

 

[Peanut]

Is being "saved" the same as having your name in Gods book of life? Cause it seems as if God told Moses that to get your name out of His book he'd only have to sin against God. Seems like Moses could've sinned against God and had his name taken out of the book then. Maybe someone can clear this up for me.

Revelation 17:8 speaks of the book of life and names written or not written before the foundation of the world.
That comports with eternal salvation of God's elect, those God's grace would fall upon and be saved he knew before the foundation, creation, of the world.

 

[Helen]

I agree. I was saying that Moses as well could've had his name blotted out by sinning against God.
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
I know you already referenced these verses but they speak directly to Moses wanting his name blotted out and God telling him how that can happen.

So, in light of that, could God have blotted Moses name out. We know that Moses hit the rock in anger, rather than speak to it to bring forth water.
But, this above was a different timeframe. God did not speak of removing his name because of anger.
So, what sin is God referring to here? " sin against Me."

Maybe in the OT there were different 'levels' of sin. Not so in the NT.
I find all this somewhat complicated!!
( I'm still waiting for a shaft of Light to suddenly hit me!! and bring clarity)

Bless you...

 

[Peanut]

I agree. I was saying that Moses as well could've had his name blotted out by sinning against God.
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
I know you already referenced these verses but they speak directly to Moses wanting his name blotted out and God telling him how that can happen.

Extra~Biblical texts of Hebrew tradition have much to say concerning Moshe (Moses) and his destiny.
THE LAST DAY OF MOSES' LIFE Chapter 7

Derived from source: The Haggada

 

[Peanut]

To expound on the Moses topic.
Moses would be alive with the Father wouldn't he? When visions of himself and other patriarchs are recorded in Matthew , Mark, and Luke.

Matthew 17(KJV)
17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. [Full Chapter]


Mark 9
4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. [Full Chapter]

Luke 9
30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
[Full Chapter]

 

[Pisteuo]

So, in light of that, could God have blotted Moses name out. We know that Moses hit the rock in anger, rather than speak to it to bring forth water.
But, this above was a different timeframe. God did not speak of removing his name because of anger.
So, what sin is God referring to here? " sin against Me."

Maybe in the OT there were different 'levels' of sin. Not so in the NT.
I find all this somewhat complicated!!
( I'm still waiting for a shaft of Light to suddenly hit me!! and bring clarity)

Bless you...

God had no reason to that I could see. But He told Moses if one was to sin against Him then He would. Then God just went on about His business guiding Moses in what to do next.
What was the "sinning against God"? Making a golden calf is all I can see here. And it sounds as if God was telling Moses that He knew Moses didn't make or worship it. Thats what I read. Moses trying to step in and take the punishment for the people and God telling him no.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Now - all you have to do is show us where the BIBLE says that . . .

Extra~Biblical texts of Hebrew tradition have much to say concerning Moshe (Moses) and his destiny.
THE LAST DAY OF MOSES' LIFE Chapter 7

Derived from source: The Haggada

How is it that you accept extrabiblical texts when it comes to Moses - but you don't accept them when they apply to the Early Church?

 

[Job]

What was the "sinning against God"?

1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.


j

 

[Stranger]

The key phrase here is "BLOT OUT".
God cannot "BLOT OUT" a name that was never there to begin with.

This is talking about names that WERE in God's Book - and were "BLOTTED OUT".
The Bible is adamantly clear that we CAN lose our secure place with God . . .

I honestly believe that some believers just want to go to hell.

(Ex. 32) is not a picture of a loss of salvation, of being blotted out of the book. It is a picture of eternal security due to intersecession. God didn't come to Moses and say He was going to blot out this people. God offered to Moses the place that Abraham had as to all the covenant promises being in him so that God could destroy this people. (32:10) Moses is the one that brought up being blotted out in saying to God he would rather God blot his name out if God is not going to forgive their sin. God replied back that He wouldn't do that. (32:31-33) He wouldn't blot out ones name out of the book of life for another. That would only be done on the basis of the one sinning.

So,Moses refused the offer and God continues on with the Abrahamic Covenant. But the people are judged and plagued for their sins with the golden calf. (32:35) But they remain the people of God. (32:13-17) "Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight,...and consider that this nation is thy people.....For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us?....And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in in my sight, and I know thee by name."

Did you see that? God said "I will do this thing".

And, do not we as Christians see ourselves just like this rebellious unbelieving people in the wilderness so many times. Yet do not we have even a more capeable intercessor in Jesus Christ than Moses could ever hope to be?

Stranger

 

[Helen]

(Ex. 32) is not a picture of a loss of salvation, of being blotted out of the book. It is a picture of eternal security due to intersecession. God didn't come to Moses and say He was going to blot out this people. God offered to Moses the place that Abraham had as to all the covenant promises being in him so that God could destroy this people. (32:10) Moses is the one that brought up being blotted out in saying to God he would rather God blot his name out if God is not going to forgive their sin.....

.....and all the rest of it...

I like that...and now that you say it, it seems obvious...I got sidetracked.

I have always liked the verse that Moses says.." If Thy presence goes not with us, take us not up thence." Bringing it right back to relationship again.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I honestly believe that some believers just want to go to hell.

(Ex. 32) is not a picture of a loss of salvation, of being blotted out of the book. It is a picture of eternal security due to intersecession. God didn't come to Moses and say He was going to blot out this people. God offered to Moses the place that Abraham had as to all the covenant promises being in him so that God could destroy this people. (32:10) Moses is the one that brought up being blotted out in saying to God he would rather God blot his name out if God is not going to forgive their sin. God replied back that He wouldn't do that. (32:31-33) He wouldn't blot out ones name out of the book of life for another. That would only be done on the basis of the one sinning.

So,Moses refused the offer and God continues on with the Abrahamic Covenant. But the people are judged and plagued for their sins with the golden calf. (32:35) But they remain the people of God. (32:13-17) "Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight,...and consider that this nation is thy people.....For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us?....And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in in my sight, and I know thee by name."

Did you see that? God said "I will do this thing".

And, do not we as Christians see ourselves just like this rebellious unbelieving people in the wilderness so many times. Yet do not we have even a more capeable intercessor in Jesus Christ than Moses could ever hope to be?
Stranger

Your entire point is moot because of the phrase "BLOT OUT."
Something that can be "blotted out" means that it was there to begin with. As I showed earlier in the following verses, God is using the SAME language - and this is AFTER Moses and AFTER Jesus' sacrifice:

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Stranger]

Your entire point is moot because of the phrase "BLOT OUT."
Something that can be "blotted out" means that it was there to begin with. As I showed earlier in the following verses, God is using the SAME language - and this is AFTER Moses and AFTER Jesus' sacrifice:

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

Please pay attention.In (Rev.3:5) God said to the overcomer he would not "blot out his name" He didn't say he would. And who is the overcomer? (1John 5:5) "....he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

And, the overcomer is not being addressed in (Rev. 22:17-19). It is 'whosoever' in (17), and 'every man'and 'any man' in (18-19). A severe warning to be sure. But the believer is not going to add to or take away from the book of (Revelation), or any other book of the Bible for that matter. It certainly shows how God views His Holy written Word. My Bible in (22:19) says "book of life" with a footnote saying, "or from the tree".

Stranger

 

[pia]

Is being "saved" the same as having your name in Gods book of life? Cause it seems as if God told Moses that to get your name out of His book he'd only have to sin against God. Seems like Moses could've sinned against God and had his name taken out of the book then. Maybe someone can clear this up for me.

If it is the same or not I can't tell you, but I can share what happened once.
I had only been in a Christian fellowship for a few months, when the Pastor taught us, that we COULD lose our Salvation. So I actually got scared and prayed inwardly till we left. I had, my then 11 year old daughter with me, as well as a friend from her school, who was with us for I think the 2nd. time.
I had said absolutely nothing to anyone about my fears ( which I would never share with a child anyway ) and on the way home in the car, this little girl, said to me, that she was hearing something, she needed to tell me......
Thinking : "Oh how sweet." I said to her :" Go ahead.", and what she said next, is something I have cherished for many years....She said this :" Jesus wants you to know that you are in His book, and He will never tear out the page." How this child knew the first thing about any of it, would be a complete mystery to me, unless I myself had experienced that Jesus can and does speak to people.
That little one having the courage to speak out, even though she had just joined, was wonderful to me, and she saved me an awful lot of agonizing.
Once in a blue moon I do forget this, but thankfully I have a great friend who reminds me often of this.
I don't know if that can help at all, as it doesn't really answer your actual question, but the surety of Jesus, I think is on display in what He said to the girl........ Peace

 

[pia]

Thanks. I know, I totally get that. Is everyone IN , and when a person sins it gets blocked out?
Or do people get 'saved' and get put in then, but get blotted out when we sin?

1 John 1 8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

So by those scriptures it sounds a bit like "written in the book", ..blotted out of the book.... repent = so written back in!!
I have never been a fan of " save , lost, save, lost" , then saved again...doctrine!!
I still don't have a clear grasp of the Book thing. I am obviously not "hearing by the Spirit", but trying to understand it via my mind. I guess I need to pray about it more.
bless you...

Hello 'ByGrace' I just remembered that in 1 Cor 13, it gives us a list of what Love ( God ) is and what it isn't, and one of them is :" Love takes no account of evil done against it.". So this whole in or out thing, I think people may have misunderstood it. Perhaps there is a book, which have the original tribes of Israel ( as they were not under Grace ) listed. I can't make heads or tails out of it, nor do I understand it. From experience our Father is NOTHING like us humans, and yet people try to input human feelings, emotions and actions unto God, as if He is just a slightly better human than the rest of us........Simply cannot be ! If God is the same ALWAYS, then how can we have all these differing ideas ? If God is LOVE, He is ALWAYS LOVE and cannot change that, so we need to look at what's written through the eyes of Love, perhaps that will aid some of us ? I will definitely pray some about this also, would love to really understand it, but in His timing....... Peace always Pia

 

[Helen]

Hello 'ByGrace' I just remembered that in 1 Cor 13, it gives us a list of what Love ( God ) is and what it isn't, and one of them is :" Love takes no account of evil done against it.".

Hi Pia...thanks for that post. Yes that helps me to it in a better perspective. For some stupid reason I just couldn't wrap my head around it today
It always seems to get scrambled a bit when we try to make things of the OT dealings with God's people, fit into our NT belief system of the victorious Lord and our position in Him right now.

I'm still mulling all this over ...I can understand in my spirit what I cannot understand with my mind!

Blessings...H

 

[pia]

Hi Pia...thanks for that post. Yes that helps me to it in a better perspective. For some stupid reason I just couldn't wrap my head around it today
It always seems to get scrambled a bit when we try to make things of the OT dealings with God's people, fit into our NT belief system of the victorious Lord and our position in Him right now.

I'm still mulling all this over ...I can understand in my spirit what I cannot understand with my mind!

Blessings...H

We could pick a time ( once you're not quite so busy ) and arrange to pray a prayer of agreement of understanding, if you like....All we have to do is to figure out the time difference. It is a serious issue for sure...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Please pay attention.In (Rev.3:5) God said to the overcomer he would not "blot out his name" He didn't say he would. And who is the overcomer? (1John 5:5) "....he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

And, the overcomer is not being addressed in (Rev. 22:17-19). It is 'whosoever' in (17), and 'every man'and 'any man' in (18-19). A severe warning to be sure. But the believer is not going to add to or take away from the book of (Revelation), or any other book of the Bible for that matter. It certainly shows how God views His Holy written Word. My Bible in (22:19) says "book of life" with a footnote saying, "or from the tree".

Stranger

Uh huh.
And God is promising to delete a person's name from the Book of Life and take away their "share" in the Tree of Life.
This is addressing SAVED people who are in danger of LOSING their salvation.

Unsaved people don't have a "share" in the Tree of Life.
Unsaved people's names are NOT written in the Book of Life and therefore could NEVER be "blotted out."

The "Overcomer" is the one who doesn't lose his salvation because he remains faithful.