Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[Stranger]

Rev 22:17019 pertains ONLY to thoise who have a share in the Tree of Life - the SAVED.
God can only take away somebody's share in the Tree of Life and in the Holy City if he already HAD a share in it to begin with. This is talking about SAVED people who take away from or add to the words of the words of this Book.

Finally - what makes you believe that you cannot lose your salvation by sinning?
Where the the Bible make this claim?

How is it that it is only the saved that are being addressed here. (Rev. 22:11) says, " He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still. "

And, in (Rev. 22:17) the bride and the Spirit give the invitation to salvation. "Let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." This is directed to those who are not saved.

Then in (Rev. 22:18-19), the warning is not given to the saved, but to any man or every man who adds or takes away from this book. So you see, it is not the saved being addressed.

Your Bible says 'tree of life'. Mine says 'book of life'. The tree of life doesn't give one eternal life. The book of life doesn't give eternal life. Eternal life is obtained only by faith in Jesus Christ. The believer is already promised that God will not blot his name out of the book of life. (1 John 5:5). (Rev. 3:5)

The believer in Jesus Christ is not going to add or take away from the book of Revelation or any other book.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I'll re-phrase your question.
How can a person have their name blotted out from the Book of Life if it wasn't there in the first place?

I am not interested in your rephrasing of my question. As, you misunderstand what I was saying. So, perhaps you should stick to your own questions instead of trying to twist and reshape others.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

How is it that it is only the saved that are being addressed here. (Rev. 22:11) says, " He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still. "

And, in (Rev. 22:17) the bride and the Spirit give the invitation to salvation. "Let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." This is directed to those who are not saved.

Then in (Rev. 22:18-19), the warning is not given to the saved, but to any man or every man who adds or takes away from this book. So you see, it is not the saved being addressed.

Your Bible says 'tree of life'. Mine says 'book of life'. The tree of life doesn't give one eternal life. The book of life doesn't give eternal life. Eternal life is obtained only by faith in Jesus Christ. The believer is already promised that God will not blot his name out of the book of life. (1 John 5:5). (Rev. 3:5)

The believer in Jesus Christ is not going to add or take away from the book of Revelation or any other book.

Stranger

First of all - I was quoting from the Protestant NIV translation - not a Catholic translation.

Secondly - God is addressing all those who thirst - but more specifically - and those who "freely take of the water". These are the people who have come to Christ - Christians.

Finally - 1 John 5:5 isn't a guarantee that everybody who "believes" that Jesus is the Son of God will be saved or will "overcome".
It merely says that those who DO overcome are those who believe. THEY are the ones that Rev. 3:5 describes as being "clothed in white".

Don't forget - James 2:19 says that even the DEMONS believe this - but they aren't saved. They haven't "overcome".

 

[Stranger]

First of all - I was quoting from the Protestant NIV translation - not a Catholic translation.

Secondly - God is addressing all those who thirst - but more specifically - and those who "freely take of the water". These are the people who have come to Christ - Christians.

Finally - 1 John 5:5 isn't a guarantee that everybody who "believes" that Jesus is the Son of God will be saved or will "overcome".
It merely says that those who DO overcome are those who believe. THEY are the ones that Rev. 3:5 describes as being "clothed in white".

Don't forget - James 2:19 says that even the DEMONS believe this - but they aren't saved. They haven't "overcome".

I never said you did quote from a Roman Bible.

No, the invitation is for those to come to the water of life. That is an invitation to one who is not a believer. And again, the words 'every man', and 'any man', and 'whosoever', shows that it is not to believers.

(1 John 5:5) describes who the overcomer is. It is "he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God". And (Rev. 3:5) is clear that the overcomer will never have his name blotted out of the 'book of life'.

(James 2:19) doesn't say the demons believe but are not saved. It says "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. " But, salvation is not to the demons or devils anyway. No matter what they believed. And, the Christian believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He doesn't just believe there is one god.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I never said you did quote from a Roman Bible.

I don't even know what a "Roman" Bible is.
Why do you insist on using this term when you obviously don't understand what it means??

I said that I didn't use a Catholic tranclation - but a Protestant one.

No, the invitation is for those to come to the water of life. That is an invitation to one who is not a believer. And again, the words 'every man', and 'any man', and 'whosoever', shows that it is not to believers.

(1 John 5:5) describes who the overcomer is. It is "he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God". And (Rev. 3:5) is clear that the overcomer will never have his name blotted out of the 'book of life'.

(James 2:19) doesn't say the demons believe but are not saved. It says "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. " But, salvation is not to the demons or devils anyway. No matter what they believed. And, the Christian believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He doesn't just believe there is one god.

Stranger

The invitation to those in Rev. 22 is to all - but those who drink freely of these waters are the BELIEVERS - the Christians.

Rev. 3:5 says no such thing.
It doesn't say that the believer won't have their name blotted out - but those who OVERCOME.

Those who "overcome" are those Christians who remained faithful.
Those who do NOT overcome did NOT remain faithful.

1 John 5:5 is speaking in general terms about those who "overcome" - that they are the ones who believe.
I already pointed out that even the DEMONS believe - but they haven't overcome anything.

 

[Helen]

First of all - I was quoting from the Protestant NIV translation - not a Catholic translation.

I'm a Protestant and I hate the NIV...it's not "mine"...

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm a Protestant and I hate the NIV...it's not "mine"...

I know - but it IS a Protestant version.
I'm not crazy about it either. I only use it to even the field when debating.

And I STILL don't kow what a "Roman" version is . . .

 

[Stranger]

I don't even know what a "Roman" Bible is.
Why do you insist on using this term when you obviously don't understand what it means??

I said that I didn't use a Catholic tranclation - but a Protestant one.

The invitation to those in Rev. 22 is to all - but those who drink freely of these waters are the BELIEVERS - the Christians.

Rev. 3:5 says no such thing.
It doesn't say that the believer won't have their name blotted out - but those who OVERCOME.

Those who "overcome" are those Christians who remained faithful.
Those who do NOT overcome did NOT remain faithful.

1 John 5:5 is speaking in general terms about those who "overcome" - that they are the ones who believe.
I already pointed out that even the DEMONS believe - but they haven't overcome anything.

Yes you do. You may not agree, but you understand. And I understand what it means, which is why I use it.

But the invitation in (17) is to those who are not believers from the Spirit and the bride which are the believers. And as I said before, (Rev. 22:11) shows that John is addressing unbelievers and believers. Then in (18-19) the warning is given to any man, and every man, who would add or take away from the book of Revelation. This is certainly not the believers. It is the unbelievers. Which means it is not a loss of salvation but a taking away their part in the book of life or in their share of the tree of life. Which ever you choose.

A blessing was given at the beginning of the Book of Revelation. (1:3) "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." So blessing to those that hear and keep the words of Revelation. Then you look at (Rev.22:18-19) "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add uinto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life..." Those in (18-19) are those who hear but do not keep the words of this book. Instead they seek to change it by adding to it or taking from it.

(1 John 55) "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

(Rev. 3:5) "He that overcometh,...I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...."

I don't know what is 'general' about it. Seems pretty clear.

Your example of demons believing in one god proves nothing. The demons know and believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God also, but they are not going to be saved because there is no salvation offered to them.

Stranger

 

[pia]

It is a difficult, if not impossible, thing to understand spiritual things through the flesh. We have need of revelation......

 

[bbyrd009]

And again, the words 'every man', and 'any man', and 'whosoever', shows that it is not to believers.

um, what?

it is likely "believers" who need the most help imo lol

 

[bbyrd009]

And (Rev. 3:5) is clear that the overcomer will never have his name blotted out of the 'book of life'.

how people believe that a little public profession gets them saved in light of this is beyond me

 

[bbyrd009]

It is a difficult, if not impossible, thing to understand spiritual things through the flesh. We have need of revelation......

ya, 'hating your life' is a hard sell alright

 

[pia]

ya, 'hating your life' is a hard sell alright

Sure, and how can we hate what the Lord Loves.......We do a lot of things 180* wrong lol

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes you do. You may not agree, but you understand. And I understand what it means, which is why I use it.

No - I swear to you that I don't know what a "Roman" Bible is. What is it??
I don't think YOU can even explain it because you use this term without understanding what it means.

Yes you do. You may not agree, but you understand. And I understand what it means, which is why I use it.

But the invitation in (17) is to those who are not believers from the Spirit and the bride which are the believers. And as I said before, (Rev. 22:11) shows that John is addressing unbelievers and believers. Then in (18-19) the warning is given to any man, and every man, who would add or take away from the book of Revelation. This is certainly not the believers. It is the unbelievers. Which means it is not a loss of salvation but a taking away their part in the book of life or in their share of the tree of life. Which ever you choose.

A blessing was given at the beginning of the Book of Revelation. (1:3) "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." So blessing to those that hear and keep the words of Revelation. Then you look at (Rev.22:18-19) "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add uinto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life..." Those in (18-19) are those who hear but do not keep the words of this book. Instead they seek to change it by adding to it or taking from it.

(1 John 55) "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

(Rev. 3:5) "He that overcometh,...I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...."

AGAIN - the invitation is to all.
Those who "drink freely" from the waters of life are those who have come to Christ in faith - CHRISTIANS. This warning is to them.

I don't know what is 'general' about it. Seems pretty clear.

Your example of demons believing in one god proves nothing. The demons know and believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God also, but they are not going to be saved because there is no salvation offered to them.

The fact that even the demons believe shows that to "overcome" means a LOT more than just "believing.'
To overcome, as Jesus illustrates means to remain faithful - to the END (Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:9-13)

 

[Stranger]

No - I swear to you that I don't know what a "Roman" Bible is. What is it??
I don't think YOU can even explain it because you use this term without understanding what it means.

AGAIN - the invitation is to all.
Those who "drink freely" from the waters of life are those who have come to Christ in faith - CHRISTIANS. This warning is to them.

The fact that even the demons believe shows that to "overcome" means a LOT more than just "believing.'
To overcome, as Jesus illustrates means to remain faithful - to the END (Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:9-13)

The Roman Bible is the Vulgate.

Indeed the invitation is to all. There are those who hear and come. There are those who hear and do not come. Those that come will not add unto the words of Revelation or take away from them. Those that here and don't come are prone to add to the words or take away from the words of Revelation. Thus the warning.

The believers are those that read, hear, and keep the words of Revelation. (Rev. 1:3) The nonbelievers are those that hear but do not keep the words of Revelation. Instead they would add or take away from this book. (Rev. 22:18-19)

Demons can never be overcomers no matter what they believe or do. Salvation is not to them. Concerning men, belief in Jesus Christ is all that is needed to be saved. And the one that places faith in Jesus Christ is an overcomer. (1John 5:5) And as a result his name will never be blotted out of the book of life. (Rev. 3:5)

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Roman Bible is the Vulgate.

No, it's not.
That is a Catholic Bible.

What is the "Roman" Bible??
When you say "Roman" - what are you referring to?

Indeed the invitation is to all. There are those who hear and come. There are those who hear and do not come. Those that come will not add unto the words of Revelation or take away from them. Those that here and don't come are prone to add to the words or take away from the words of Revelation. Thus the warning.

The believers are those that read, hear, and keep the words of Revelation. (Rev. 1:3) The nonbelievers are those that hear but do not keep the words of Revelation. Instead they would add or take away from this book. (Rev. 22:18-19)

Demons can never be overcomers no matter what they believe or do. Salvation is not to them. Concerning men, belief in Jesus Christ is all that is needed to be saved. And the one that places faith in Jesus Christ is an overcomer. (1John 5:5) And as a result his name will never be blotted out of the book of life. (Rev. 3:5)

Incorrect.
There are MANY examples of Christians who went astray - some of them in my own family.

The following passages of Scripture are perfect examples of this.
Christians who lose their way and fall out of favor with God:

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

[Jun2u]

My answer to the OP is: No! It is not possible for a believer to lose salvation.

If anyone can lose salvation after becoming saved that means God does not have the power to save, for the wages of sin (singular) is death. In other words, it only takes one sin to send anyone in hell. If there remain even one sin in a believer’s life after death then he is still accountable for that sin and he can never, never repay for that sin now nor ever. If he could he wouldn’t need a savior.

The truth is Jesus came down from heaven for that purpose and to give eternal life (Jo 10:27-29) to those He came to save. There is not one sin that Jesus did not pay for in the life of a believer. Hence, believers do not sin because they are born from above (1Jo 3:9; Jo 1:13). Do believers become sinless or not sin after becoming saved? Not at all. There is a commentary on this in Ro 7:15-25.

Jesus promised that He will not leave nor forsake the believers (Heb 13:5), and that He will be with them always till the end of the world (Mt 28:20). Do these scriptures and those mentioned above sound like a believer can lose salvation after conversion? And here is the kicker, scripture proof as you will, that a believer can never lose his salvation: “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Co 5:8). GLORY! ALLELUIA!

In other words when a believer dies his body goes to the grave but in his soul existence he goes to be with the Lord in heaven. In contrast, when an unsaved dies, both his body and soul goes to the grave to await judgment.

Many people do not really understand salvation and the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” which by the way, is clearly taught in Scriptures. These people use scriptures that apparently proves a believer can lose salvation after becoming saved. One of many such scriptures used is Hebrews 6 but with careful reading and study the meaning of these verses are not what they really perceived them to mean. And they didn’t take into account verse 9. These people have altogether been wrong in their interpretation of Hebrews 6 and, if wrong, could also be wrong in their interpretation of other scriptures as well.

The key to unlocking Hebrews 6:4-6 is to be able to understand and define the meaning of the phrases: “Once enlightened,” “Have tasted of the heavenly gift,” “Were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “Have tasted the good word,” “Powers of the world to come,” and “If they shall fall away.”

The most critical and misunderstood phrase I believe is “If they shall fall away.” This term means “ to turn away” and is NOT speaking of a believer. The commentary on this is found in Isaiah 55:6-11 and Hebrews 3:17-19 answers Hebrews 6:9.

“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His
judgments, and His ways past finding out!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Helen]

Amen Jun2u.
I am right with you there.

 

[BreadOfLife]

My answer to the OP is: No! It is not possible for a believer to lose salvation.

If anyone can lose salvation after becoming saved that means God does not have the power to save, for the wages of sin (singular) is death. In other words, it only takes one sin to send anyone in hell. If there remain even one sin in a believer’s life after death then he is still accountable for that sin and he can never, never repay for that sin now nor ever. If he could he wouldn’t need a savior.

The truth is Jesus came down from heaven for that purpose and to give eternal life (Jo 10:27-29) to those He came to save. There is not one sin that Jesus did not pay for in the life of a believer. Hence, believers do not sin because they are born from above (1Jo 3:9; Jo 1:13). Do believers become sinless or not sin after becoming saved? Not at all. There is a commentary on this in Ro 7:15-25.

Jesus promised that He will not leave nor forsake the believers (Heb 13:5), and that He will be with them always till the end of the world (Mt 28:20). Do these scriptures and those mentioned above sound like a believer can lose salvation after conversion? And here is the kicker, scripture proof as you will, that a believer can never lose his salvation: “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Co 5:8). GLORY! ALLELUIA!

In other words when a believer dies his body goes to the grave but in his soul existence he goes to be with the Lord in heaven. In contrast, when an unsaved dies, both his body and soul goes to the grave to await judgment.

Many people do not really understand salvation and the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” which by the way, is clearly taught in Scriptures. These people use scriptures that apparently proves a believer can lose salvation after becoming saved. One of many such scriptures used is Hebrews 6 but with careful reading and study the meaning of these verses are not what they really perceived them to mean. And they didn’t take into account verse 9. These people have altogether been wrong in their interpretation of Hebrews 6 and, if wrong, could also be wrong in their interpretation of other scriptures as well.

The key to unlocking Hebrews 6:4-6 is to be able to understand and define the meaning of the phrases: “Once enlightened,” “Have tasted of the heavenly gift,” “Were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “Have tasted the good word,” “Powers of the world to come,” and “If they shall fall away.”

The most critical and misunderstood phrase I believe is “If they shall fall away.” This term means “ to turn away” and is NOT speaking of a believer. The commentary on this is found in Isaiah 55:6-11 and Hebrews 3:17-19 answers Hebrews 6:9.

“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His
judgments, and His ways past finding out!

To God Be The Glory

No - neither of the false doctrines of OSAS nor Soul Sleep are taught in Scripture.
As I have presented many times on this thread already - the following verses prove the falsehood of OSAS.

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they be "cut off" from what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness or they will LOSE their "secure position".

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Amen Jun2u.
I am right with you there.

Then, refute the passages in post #639 . . .