Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[amadeus]

I think Salvation can be Lost, But there were those that Paul described as, If they had been with us they would not have departed from us. So is everyone that claims to be a believer, a believer ?

Certainly not, for there are tares among the wheat which will be handled when it is God's time.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I was just trying to get your attention.
God cannot stop believing in himself
And neither can we...

Wanna bet??
The following verses are about born again CHRISTIANS who can lose their way . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and mute person .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.


Remember: GOD is perfectly faithful - YOU aren't . . .

 

[DPMartin]

I think Salvation can be Lost, But there were those that Paul described as, If they had been with us they would not have departed from us. So is everyone that claims to be a believer, a believer ?

what makes you think that when Jesus says:


Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

also what is said in 26and 27 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

seems to be the same thing as what you reference to Paul's statement, its simple, in the case of being born again, you can't loss what you didn't have in the first place. a cat is born a cat, it doesn't loss the life of a cat for as long as the cat lives, a man is born a man, he doesn't loss the life of a man, for as long as he lives. the child of God is born into the child of God ship, and doesn't loss the Life of a child of God for as long as the child of God shall live. which in this case as Jesus says is forever.

 

[BreadOfLife]

what makes you think that when Jesus says:

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

also what is said in 26and 27 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

seems to be the same thing as what you reference to Paul's statement, its simple, in the case of being born again, you can't loss what you didn't have in the first place. a cat is born a cat, it doesn't loss the life of a cat for as long as the cat lives, a man is born a man, he doesn't loss the life of a man, for as long as he lives. the child of God is born into the child of God ship, and doesn't loss the Life of a child of God for as long as the child of God shall live. which in this case as Jesus says is forever.

Nobody CAN pluck us out of His hand.
However, in the verse I presented in post #1422, the Word of God states that we ourselves can walk away from Him.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Wanna bet??
The following verses are about born again CHRISTIANS who can lose their way . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and mute person .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.


Remember: GOD is perfectly faithful - YOU aren't . . .

Okay, assuming you are interpreting the verses correctly, who in the Bible has ever lost their salvation?

 

[DPMartin]

Nobody CAN pluck us out of His hand.
However, in the verse I presented in post #1422, the Word of God states that we ourselves can walk away from Him.

which verse is that one?

and your statement isn't true by the way, if it is true that nobody can, that means nobody no exceptions doesn't it? that would include yourself, you are somebody correct? so which is it? basically you are talking out both sides of your mouth. you're arguing to justify your view, that you know ain't true. the truth of a matter need no justification.

without the Lord with you, you can't keep yourself with the Lord. you ain't got what it takes, or your salvation via being born of the Holy Spirit wouldn't be necessary for to seal you unto salvation. and the Lord knows that, maybe you don't but He does, despite your madness.


anyway, your discussion isn't relevant to my posting to "truth"

 

[Armadillo]

Wanna bet??
The following verses are about born again CHRISTIANS who can lose their way . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

His kindness, not yours. Your own kindness is fake, a lie, ouch. Only God is the source of true kindness and in order to show genuine kindness toward one another, we must first come to the realization that it can't be done by our own strength.

Hebrews 13:20-21, Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Believers live by the faith of Jesus Christ, not unbelief and Jesus is the vine, you are the branch. Being cut off is just a pruning by God. Jews were cut off due to unbelief but they can be grafted in again, Romans 11:23.

Romans 11:20, Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

John 15:2, He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

 

[Armadillo]

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

The sacred command is...

1 John 3:23, And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

The way of righteousness is...

Romans 3:22, This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

If you were enlightened, if you heard the Gospel message of Grace but still insist your works are the way to righteousness then you are essentially putting Jesus back on the cross and there is no forgiveness for this, you are an unbeliever, you never really believed in the first place.

 

[Armadillo]

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and mute person .

This verse does not in any way say you can lose your salvation. If you aren't making a sinner thirsty, you aren't being salty enough, you look and sound miserable and no one wants to be around you and you feel trampled upon because you are. Sinners should want to be around you, you are the salt of the earth after all and it should make them thirsty. Where is your love, your joy, your salt?

John 4:14, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

 

[Armadillo]

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

The prize is the new you with the resurrected Jesus alive in you and to know this and live this, is the prize. Sometimes the old you will make an appearance so repent, you are not who you used to be.

2 Corinthians 5:17, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

 

[Armadillo]

Remember: GOD is perfectly faithful - YOU aren't . . .

Thank God Jesus is faithful and I am in Jesus. My faith wavers, His doesn't.

Colossians 1:27, To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[Armadillo]

Nobody CAN pluck us out of His hand.
However, in the verse I presented in post #1422, the Word of God states that we ourselves can walk away from Him.

Isaiah 41:13, For I am the LORD your God who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, Do not fear; I will help you.

How can we walk away from Him when He is holding our hand, notice it is not we are holding His hand. When you hold a child's hand while crossing a busy street, can the child let go and run into traffic? No, because no matter how much the child squirms and wrestles to be let loose from your grip, you hold on even tighter to his tiny little hand knowing that if he did manage to get loose, he can walk away from you, he could get hit by a car, and you just cannot allow that to happen.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay, assuming you are interpreting the verses correctly, who in the Bible has ever lost their salvation?

The Bible teaches that we CAN lose our salvation by our own doing.
The Bible doesn't need to show examples.

The Bible talks about the 2nd Coming - which hasn't happened yet.
How many people do YOU know that have seen it?? Is it false because there are no Biblical accounts of specific people experiencing it??

 

[BreadOfLife]

which verse is that one?

and your statement isn't true by the way, if it is true that nobody can, that means nobody no exceptions doesn't it? that would include yourself, you are somebody correct? so which is it? basically you are talking out both sides of your mouth. you're arguing to justify your view, that you know ain't true. the truth of a matter need no justification.

without the Lord with you, you can't keep yourself with the Lord. you ain't got what it takes, or your salvation via being born of the Holy Spirit wouldn't be necessary for to seal you unto salvation. and the Lord knows that, maybe you don't but He does, despite your madness.
anyway, your discussion isn't relevant to my posting to "truth"

Bad logic.
Try as you might - you can't "pluck" yourself out of anything.

You CAN, however, turn your back and walk away.
I have posted about a DOZEN verses that make this point crystal clear.

 

[BreadOfLife]

His kindness, not yours. Your own kindness is fake, a lie, ouch. Only God is the source of true kindness and in order to show genuine kindness toward one another, we must first come to the realization that it can't be done by our own strength.

Hebrews 13:20-21, Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Believers live by the faith of Jesus Christ, not unbelief and Jesus is the vine, you are the branch. Being cut off is just a pruning by God. Jews were cut off due to unbelief but they can be grafted in again, Romans 11:23.

Romans 11:20, Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.

John 15:2, He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This is a non-answer because you didn't address the entire verse.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The sacred command is...

1 John 3:23, And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

The way of righteousness is...

Romans 3:22, This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

If you were enlightened, if you heard the Gospel message of Grace but still insist your works are the way to righteousness then you are essentially putting Jesus back on the cross and there is no forgiveness for this, you are an unbeliever, you never really believed in the first place.

HOGWASH.

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.


2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn backfrom the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The Bible teaches that we CAN lose our salvation by our own doing.
The Bible doesn't need to show examples.

The Bible talks about the 2nd Coming - which hasn't happened yet.
How many people do YOU know that have seen it?? Is it false because there are no Biblical accounts of specific people experiencing it??

There is no teaching of losing salvation in the Bible.
On the contrary, the Bible is full of verses to help build each other up to be ready to meet our maker.
Anyone teaching that you can lose your salvation is teaching a hell-bent lie.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This verse does not in any way say you can lose your salvation. If you aren't making a sinner thirsty, you aren't being salty enough, you look and sound miserable and no one wants to be around you and you feel trampled upon because you are. Sinners should want to be around you, you are the salt of the earth after all and it should make them thirsty. Where is your love, your joy, your salt?

John 4:14, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

That is a perversion of what Jesus said.

His message was simple: You are the salt of the earth. If you lose your taste - you're worthless.
The point He is making is that you CAN lose it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is no teaching of losing salvation in the Bible.
On the contrary, the Bible is full of verses to help build each other up to be ready to meet our maker.
Anyone teaching that you can lose your salvation is teaching a hell-bent lie.

Then REFUTE the dozen or so verses I presented in Post #1422.
Until you can give a well-researched and intelligent answer instead of the silly opinions and one-liners - you lose . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The prize is the new you with the resurrected Jesus alive in you and to know this and live this, is the prize. Sometimes the old you will make an appearance so repent, you are not who you used to be.

2 Corinthians 5:17, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

The prize is eternal salvation - period.