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BreadOfLife

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Thank God Jesus is faithful and I am in Jesus. My faith wavers, His doesn't.

Colossians 1:27, To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Just because Jesus is faithful doesn't give YOU the luxury of abdicating YOUR faith . . .

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ - but ONLY the one who DOES the will of my Father in Heaven."

Matt. 24:13
"He who endures to the end will be saved"
 

Rollo Tamasi

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Wanna bet??
The following verses are about born again CHRISTIANS who can lose their way . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and mute person .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.


Remember: GOD is perfectly faithful - YOU aren't . . .
Romans 11:22 is a hard teaching, but it speaks of castaways, as spoken by Jesus in Matthew 22:11-13;
They are not saved.

Hebrews 10:26-27;
This speaks of gaining spiritual knowledge through the Holy Spirit, but continuing to sin is proof they did not receive it in their heart, thus, the consequences.

2 Peter 2:20-22;
This also speaks of spiritual knowledge, but due to worldly snares, they walk away from the truth.
This is called spiritual deterioration, and because they knew the truth of who Jesus is, they will be judged by privilege.
This is why it says they would have been better off not knowing the truth at all.

Matthew 5:13;
This too speaks of knowing the truth.
But they walk away from it.
This too is spiritual deterioration, and the last verse, "being thrown out and trampled by men" is proof that they too were castaways, false believers trying to get into heaven.
You can't fool God.

1 Corinthians 9:27;
Excellent verse.
Teaches self-control, self-denial.
Do not be disqualified for the prize (castaways).

2 Peter 3:17;
This is a teaching how to do things right.
Are you really saved?
Does the Holy Spirit really live inside of you?
Then you will be watchful, you will resist temptation, you will resist evil, you will resist false doctrine, and you will not fall away.
The following verse speaks of being steadfast, to grow spiritually, to receive spiritual knowledge of our Savior, to the glory of Christ.

1 John 2:24;
This simply says to confess Christ and to have perseverance, many don't do that because they are not saved.

Revelation 3:5;
Wrong!
Misinterpretation again.
It does not say that you can lose your salvation.
Those are your words and you are not a writer of the Bible.
This is about the church at Sardis.
He talks about coming like a thief. Jesus says this to the unsaved.
The saved will be ready.
It is a warning to stay ready, and if the Spirit of God lives within you, then you will stay ready.

Revelation 22:19;
Starting with verse 17, it is the final invitation to receive the Holy Spirit.
Then in verses 18 and 19, the final warnings of what happens to those who reject the final invitation.

Put it all together.
Don't pick out single verses and give them your personal meaning.
 

Job

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John 15:2, He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

John 15
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

>ship<
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.




Branches that are thrown into a fire become ashes and are no more.

o
 

ScottA

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Wanna bet??
The following verses are about born again CHRISTIANS who can lose their way . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and mute person .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.


Remember: GOD is perfectly faithful - YOU aren't . . .
This, again, is all due to a misunderstanding of what salvation is, and what it is not:

All the above verses refer to those merely "called out of darkness", not those delivered from it. That is a loss of opportunity, not of salvation. Having been called out and chosen for salvation, having heard but not taken to heart nor received it, these things were a warning to "remain" faithful to the "calling", that they might "finish the race."

And again, that was then, this is now. These are the times of the gentiles, who are not the chosen. But by hearing the good news of Christ and believing in Him, may be gathered into that "other fold" which Christ also brings unto salvation with the gift of the Holy Spirit. These are "the living in Christ", "the last who are first", while those verses only pertain to "the dead in Christ", "the first who are last", among whom "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" for their loss.
 
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Helen

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John 15
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
>ship<
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.




*Branches that are thrown into a fire become ashes and are no more.*

o

Hmm even ashes are not really "no more"...they are a something, not a nothing.

God made wonderful things out of the 'dust of the ground'
"He remembers that we are but dust."
The Fire is a refining fire... we have not seen the end of the Story yet. :p
 
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Job

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The Fire is a refining fire... we have not seen the end of the Story yet. :p

Is it? Do you know of a passage that says the discarded branches are burned and then reborn? I would like to see it.

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.


o
 
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GodsGrace

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Romans 11:22 is a hard teaching, but it speaks of castaways, as spoken by Jesus in Matthew 22:11-13;
They are not saved.
You're right.
The wedding guests that were invited in from the street HAD to have on the right garments. This could be understood to mean that they had to have the covering of Jesus and did not, or it could mean that they were not following the rules of the Kingdom. In either case, they were not saved and were cast out. These were not saved to begin with.

Hebrews 10:26-27;
This speaks of gaining spiritual knowledge through the Holy Spirit, but continuing to sin is proof they did not receive it in their heart, thus, the consequences.
These two verses are speaking of judgement.
If you go back to verse 10:20 you'll find that Paul is speaking about a new way to enter the Holy Place.

It is by having a great priest. We are to draw near with a sincere heart with full assurance. Our hearts are sprinkled clean.
verse 22

So the above is speaking about believers in Christ.

Verse 26 says that IF we go on sinning WILLFULLY, IOW, living a life of sin (not sinning since we all sin), we are THEN trampling the sacrifice of Christ and there remains no other sacrifice.

verse 29
Much more severe will be the punishment for those who trample underfoot the Son of God.

This is plainly speaking about someone who knew THE TRUTH as in verse 26, and THEN tramples God underfoot.

lost
saved
lost

2 Peter 2:20-22;
This also speaks of spiritual knowledge, but due to worldly snares, they walk away from the truth.
This is called spiritual deterioration, and because they knew the truth of who Jesus is, they will be judged by privilege.
This is why it says they would have been better off not knowing the truth at all.

Spiritual knowledge,
Spiritual deterioration.

All ways to not accept the truth that salvation can be lost.
If there is spiritual knowledge, and then spiritual deterioration, what is the end result? Loss of knowledge. Loss of the spirit of Christ.

These verses are so plain I often wonder why they even need to be addressed.

The persons spoken of (whoever they may be has no importance)
ESCAPED the defilements of the world by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. IOW, they understood who Jesus was. Lord AND Savior.

Now they are AGAIN entangled in them... the defilements of the world, and are OVERCOME by them -- meaning they have returned to serving the world instead of God.

Lost --- entangled in the world
Saved... the knowledge of God (you know what knowledge means in the bible, an intimate knowledge, NOT A HEAD KNOWLEDGE)
Lost...... AGAIN entangled in the world.

The word AGAIN also proves the were lost before and have become lost again.

Matthew 5:13;
This too speaks of knowing the truth.
But they walk away from it.
This too is spiritual deterioration, and the last verse, "being thrown out and trampled by men" is proof that they too were castaways, false believers trying to get into heaven.
You can't fool God.

You ARE the salt of the earth.
saved ... WE are the salt of the earth. The lost are not the salt of the earth.

IF the salt loses it's flavor, it becomes USELESS. It become good for NOTHING.

lost.... since we all start out lost.
saved.. we become the salt of the earth.
lost..... we have become tasteless and are of no good use.


1 Corinthians 9:27;
Excellent verse.
Teaches self-control, self-denial.
Do not be disqualified for the prize (castaways).
What is the prize?
Is not the prize heaven?

Bible Dictionaries
Hastings' Dictionary of the New Testament

Prize

Prize

According to the Gospels, reward (μισθός) finds a place in the teaching of the Kingdom of God. But the doctrine is redeemed from mercenariness by the fact that the reward is reckoned of grace and not of debt (Matthew 20:1-16, Luke 17:10) as well as by the nature of the reward. It is no mere external or material reward. Generally speaking, it is the Kingdom of God or, according to the Fourth Gospel, eternal life, that our Lord sets before His followers as the reward to which they may look forward. The blessedness which is to be theirs consists in the attainment of that moral perfection after which they strive. They that hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled: the merciful shall obtain mercy: the pure in heart shall see God.



2 Peter 3:17;
This is a teaching how to do things right.
Are you really saved?
Does the Holy Spirit really live inside of you?
Then you will be watchful, you will resist temptation, you will resist evil, you will resist false doctrine, and you will not fall away.
The following verse speaks of being steadfast, to grow spiritually, to receive spiritual knowledge of our Savior, to the glory of Christ.
Paul speaks many times about falling.
About being steadfast.
If he speaks about these two ideas, it means they COULD happen.
Otherwise there would be no need to mention it.
Falling from Grace... becoming lost
Not beng steadfast...wavering and not hanging on to Jesus.

1 John 2:24;
This simply says to confess Christ and to have perseverance, many don't do that because they are not saved.
Paul is speaking to SAVED persons.
see verse 21 -- he tells his audience that they KNOW THE TRUTH.
They are saved. He wants them to REMAIN saved.
verse 24: IF what you heard from the beginning ABIDES in you...IOW, continues to live in you.

Revelation 3:5;
Wrong!
Misinterpretation again.
It does not say that you can lose your salvation.
Those are your words and you are not a writer of the Bible.
This is about the church at Sardis.
He talks about coming like a thief. Jesus says this to the unsaved.
The saved will be ready.
I'm not qualified to speak about Revelation.
However, it does say that the church KNEW AND ACCEPTED the truth.
Do we know what the truth is nor not? Do we have a doubt???
If one ACCEPTS Jesus is he not saved???


Revelation 22:19;
Starting with verse 17, it is the final invitation to receive the Holy Spirit.
Then in verses 18 and 19, the final warnings of what happens to those who reject the final invitation.

Put it all together.
Don't pick out single verses and give them your personal meaning.

We all seem to pick out verses.
It's clear, however, from just reading the New Testament, that salvation can be lost.

How would you explain
John 15:1-6
There's absolutely no way to get around these verses.
If one does NOT ABIDE in Christ, he becomes lost.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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I'll take this one at a time when I have time.
You say Hebrews 10:26-27 speaks of judgment which it does, but that's not the main point.
You use verse 22 to say we are to draw near with a sincere heart and full assurance.
Yes, that is what we should do, but you misinterpret what the writer says to us.
He says "let us draw near".
He is telling us it is the thing to do.
He is not saying we are all saved, therefore we must do it.
Verse 23 says "let us hold unswervingly"
Verse 24 says "let us consider"
Verse 25 says "let us not give up"
Then verse 26 says "If we deliberately keep on sinning"
It's answered in verse 27 "only a fearful expectation of judgment"
So I see two different kinds of people here.
The ones that hear and do what is pleasing to God, and the ones that do not.
Who are the ones that do not?
They are the unsaved in the church.
And we know there are many of them.

This is spoken of in 1 John 4:18;
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love".
John speaks of two people here.
The one who has fearless love, because the Spirit of God lives in him, and the one who has guilty love, who knows the truth because he is in the church but does not receive the truth in his heart.

You finish here saying that you believe everyone is saved.
What church did you ever attend where everyone was saved?


More to come later.
 
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DPMartin

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Bad logic.
Try as you might - you can't "pluck" yourself out of anything.

You CAN, however, turn your back and walk away.
I have posted about a DOZEN verses that make this point crystal clear.


have you now? this is the second time I asked which ones where that, which ones?

and you're the one doing the talking that's not making any sense. again how is it you can if you can't, doesn't matter the method does it? again you say you can't but again you say you can. sorry that's talking out both sides of your mouth to win an argument with total disregard for the truth of the matter.

I've got better things to do then to try and tick you off, this is what you are doing.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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2 Peter 20-22;
It is a clear example of Judas Iscariot, who was never saved.
I would say he had an intimate relationship with Jesus.
Can you show me someone who had an intimate relationship with Jesus and walked away, losing their salvation?
Does the Bible give us an example?
No
Why?
If it's so important, then why?
Could it be that it's not true?
 
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Rollo Tamasi

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Matthew 5:13;
Salt.
It is worded differently in Mark 9:50;
"Salt is good, and if it loses it's saltiness, how can you make it salty again?
Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other".
Here you see it is a command by Jesus for something we should do, not something we already have.
Therefore, it is not a case
of saved
unsaved
saved again
This does not play into the picture
 
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Rollo Tamasi

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John 15:1-6;
Again, they are castaways, people in the church that are not really saved.
If we are already saved, is he speaking to us?
When we get saved, are we not made righteous through Christ?
Romans 3:22;
"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

Luke 5:32;
"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance".

Keep in mind, once we are saved, we are made righteous.
We are told to retain that righteousness and we will, through the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
The message is then pointed towards the unsaved, not the saved.
 
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Armadillo

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Just because Jesus is faithful doesn't give YOU the luxury of abdicating YOUR faith . .

It isn't my faith, it's His and to walk in the faith of Jesus Christ, my faith will grow and with that, the "to do" list is thrown away and the question, "What must I do to have eternal life?" is no longer a question to ask.

I feel safe, secure and at peace, do you?
 

GodsGrace

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I'll take this one at a time when I have time.
You say Hebrews 10:26-27 speaks of judgment which it does, but that's not the main point.
You use verse 22 to say we are to draw near with a sincere heart and full assurance.
Yes, that is what we should do, but you misinterpret what the writer says to us.
He says "let us draw near".
He is telling us it is the thing to do.
He is not saying we are all saved, therefore we must do it.
Verse 23 says "let us hold unswervingly"
Verse 24 says "let us consider"
Verse 25 says "let us not give up"
Then verse 26 says "If we deliberately keep on sinning"
It's answered in verse 27 "only a fearful expectation of judgment"
So I see two different kinds of people here.
The ones that hear and do what is pleasing to God, and the ones that do not.
Who are the ones that do not?
They are the unsaved in the church.
And we know there are many of them.
I went throught it again.
I don't see how Paul could be speaking to non-believers.
First of all, he's writing to believers.
I understand that judgement is not the main point.
He's saying that we are not to turn our backs on all we've learned.
He's saying that we are to hold fast our CONFESSION. That means the persons he was speaking to confessed Jesus and they were saved.
It means they KNEW and ACCEPTED the truth.

He's saying that AFTER ALL WE'VE BEEN GIVEN we deny it, we will be left on our own and Jesus will not be able to save us because we deny it.

Paul is calling them brethren. verse 19.
Doesn't brethren mean they are fellow believers?

I could agree with you that it might be talking about unsaved persons when Paul says that "we are to draw near with a sincere heart" because it does sound like he's telling them HOW to become saved...

but in verse 26 he says that the knowledge of the truth was RECEIVED.
Doesn't this mean that they were saved? They received the knowledge.
He's telling them to HOLD FAST THE CONFESSION or they will be judged. He's telling them to hold fast onto something they already have.

This is spoken of in 1 John 4:18;
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love".
John speaks of two people here.
The one who has fearless love, because the Spirit of God lives in him, and the one who has guilty love, who knows the truth because he is in the church but does not receive the truth in his heart.
I agree that it's speaking about two different types of believers.
But they are both believers.
John says "the one who fears is not perfected in love".
IOW, he might be saved, but he still fears - so he still has some growing to do and learn that love casts out all fear.

John is talking to believers in all of the letters he wrote.

You finish here saying that you believe everyone is saved.
What church did you ever attend where everyone was saved?


More to come later.

I meant that everyone that was being addressed was saved.
NOT the whole world population.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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In Hebrews 10:26-27; the writer of Hebrews calls these people the enemies of God.
He does not call them believers.

You have a hard time believing that once the truth is heard, it does not automatically goes into one's heart.
There is much truth in this world that people refuse to believe and accept, why should spiritual belief be any different?
What you are saying is that everyone that goes to church is proof that they are all saved.
Do you really believe that?

1 John 1:6;
"If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth."
This theme continues throughout the letters by John, always comparing those who are saved and how to know those who are not saved.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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@GodsGrace

You finish here saying that you believe everyone is saved.
What church did you ever attend where everyone was saved?
More to come later.

I meant that everyone that was being addressed was saved.
NOT the whole world population.

Revelation 3:4;
"Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes".

These are the few who were saved.
The rest were not saved and received none of the promises.