Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[DPMartin]

well there was some one I spoke to some time ago and the statement made was one must be willing. that would seem to be a reasonable thought but, take Israel for example they were chosen they didn't chose God, the world Zionist origination which started before 1900 had been preaching and announcing to the Jews through out the world to return to the land that was once Israel. if you noticed they weren't willing, it was better where they where in Germany and Ukraine and Poland you know to the north the north of Jerusalem. after WWII they were willing weren't they. more like afraid and feared for more persecution which was still apparent behind the iron curtain. no fear of God or respect for God as the reason to return to the promised land, just fear for their lives.

no different then when they were in the desert with Moses. willing is one thing, chosen is another, and if you are chosen your willingness has nothing to do with being chosen, does it? the Jewish people don't have a choice in the case of God choosing them but there willingness could make it easer on themselves. same God same deal for anyone He chooses. but be sure to understand despite yourselves you can be brought to your knees, no matter what. and if you notice not everyone who hears the gospel message comes to the Lord do they? doesn't matter the stature in society they may or may not have.

you don't chose God He choses you, in the choice is the glory, and the glory is God's.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Are you angry? your response's seems to be harsh!

Your post seems top be evasive.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you angry? your response's seems to be harsh!

And that's when he's in a GOOD mood!!

 

[GodsGrace]

well there was some one I spoke to some time ago and the statement made was one must be willing. that would seem to be a reasonable thought but, take Israel for example they were chosen they didn't chose God, the world Zionist origination which started before 1900 had been preaching and announcing to the Jews through out the world to return to the land that was once Israel. if you noticed they weren't willing, it was better where they where in Germany and Ukraine and Poland you know to the north the north of Jerusalem. after WWII they were willing weren't they. more like afraid and feared for more persecution which was still apparent behind the iron curtain. no fear of God or respect for God as the reason to return to the promised land, just fear for their lives.

no different then when they were in the desert with Moses. willing is one thing, chosen is another, and if you are chosen your willingness has nothing to do with being chosen, does it? the Jewish people don't have a choice in the case of God choosing them but there willingness could make it easer on themselves. same God same deal for anyone He chooses. but be sure to understand despite yourselves you can be brought to your knees, no matter what. and if you notice not everyone who hears the gospel message comes to the Lord do they? doesn't matter the stature in society they may or may not have.

you don't chose God He choses you, in the choice is the glory, and the glory is God's.

Are you one of them there Calvinist types?

 

[DPMartin]

Are you one of them there Calvinist types?

wait let me check................. nope, don't think so, are you one of the catholic types? I mean you are in Italy you know you must be a catholic, correct?

no, I'm not that familiar with Calvin's theology, red some,didn't get very far, it seems to go of track quickly. the Lord God of Israel states plainly that He choses. He chose (Adam who was to be son of God) he chose Noah the proof is Noah was ten gen's from Adam he chose Abraham the proof is Abraham is ten gen's from Noah, and the rest is obvious that Israel was and still is a chosen people that are supposed to be grafted into (adopted if you will).

and again God doesn't change His Ways. so we are dealing with the same God, the only difference is, more is fulfilled then before Christ came into the world.
_______________________________________________________________
this is off subject
if I may, what's the cost of live like in Italy we are thinking about going there, maybe east cost, try to keep a distance from the tourist traps.

 

[Truth]

Your post seems top be evasive.

Keep on keep-en on,

 

[GodsGrace]

wait let me check................. nope, don't think so, are you one of the catholic types? I mean you are in Italy you know you must be a catholic, correct?

I don't like Calvinism. It makes God out to be a really ugly God.
If you just believe in OSAS, I could argue that. But if I meet up with a Calvinist, I almost can't retain myself ! Calvin was not a very nice person either from what I've read.

Me Catholic?
Wait...let me check.
Nope. Not one of them there Catholics.
I grew up Catholic in an Italian home in the U.S.
I actually know Catholic theology pretty well.
But I'm Protestant in doctrine. Changed many years ago.

no, I'm not that familiar with Calvin's theology, red some,didn't get very far, it seems to go of track quickly. the Lord God of Israel states plainly that He choses. He chose (Adam who was to be son of God) he chose Noah the proof is Noah was ten gen's from Adam he chose Abraham the proof is Abraham is ten gen's from Noah, and the rest is obvious that Israel was and still is a chosen people that are supposed to be grafted into (adopted if you will).

Yes. I believe God choses, or groomed, special persons for very special work. However, I just hope you don't believe that God chooses who will be saved. IOW, God chooses the saved, but then it means He also chooses those who will end up in hell, and this cannot be the God I know! Grafted in...It is we gentiles who are grafted in. The Jews are definitely the chosen people, because God knew they would keep accurate records of everything. They had a propensity for passing on oral and written tradition that exists to this day.

and again God doesn't change His Ways. so we are dealing with the same God, the only difference is, more is fulfilled then before Christ came into the world.

God has fulfilled all His promises and covenants.
And Jesus is the ultimate revelation.
_______________________________________________________________

this is off subject
if I may, what's the cost of live like in Italy we are thinking about going there, maybe east cost, try to keep a distance from the tourist traps.

Why the East Coast?
There's more to see on the West Coast.
Check it out.
Cost? It's what you make it. You could stay in hotels for 300$ a night or 120$ a night or 80$ a night.
Ditto for food.
Look into hotels, bed and breakfast, and something called
"agriturismo". If you have kids you might like that one the best.

Airline tix.
Rented auto.
And please don't even attempt to drive in an Italian city.
Just use the car to get from point to point. Even with a GPS, it's still a mess.

It is a beautiful country though and you would like it a lot.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I know an Italian girl that's really roman catholic
she even makes spaghetti and meatballs for the local priest

Whoops!
That's the pale rider.
Here's the priest;

 

[GodsGrace]

I know an Italian girl that's really roman catholic
she even makes spaghetti and meatballs for the local priest

Whoops!
That's the pale rider.
Here's the priest;

Hey...
That priest ain't no Italian !!
If so, he spent A LOT of time in Nu Yawk.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hey...
That priest ain't no Italian !!
If so, he spent A LOT of time in Nu Yawk.

dumb dumb dumb
did you even read what I wrote?
Did I say the priest was Italian?
Did I even say the Italian girl was in Italy or came from Italy.

Everyone, this is an example of how easily people get misquoted.

 

[GodsGrace]

dumb dumb dumb
did you even read what I wrote?
Did I say the priest was Italian?
Did I even say the Italian girl was in Italy or came from Italy.

Everyone, this is an example of how easily people get misquoted.

Ooops.
Yes. An Italian girl could be living outside the country of Italy.
Where spaghetti and meatballs is an abomination...!

Sorry.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Ooops.
Yes. An Italian girl could be living outside the country of Italy.
Where spaghetti and meatballs is an abomination...!

Sorry.

I know an Italian girl who lives in northern Italy who recently served spaghetti and meatballs to her entire family.
Sounds common Italian stuff to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know an Italian girl who lives in northern Italy who recently served spaghetti and meatballs to her entire family.
Sounds common Italian stuff to me.

LOL
What a nutty Italian she must be!
She musta spent a lot of time in Nu Yawk.
Just like I said.

 

[DPMartin]

I don't like Calvinism. It makes God out to be a really ugly God.
If you just believe in OSAS, I could argue that. But if I meet up with a Calvinist, I almost can't retain myself ! Calvin was not a very nice person either from what I've read.

Me Catholic?
Wait...let me check.
Nope. Not one of them there Catholics.
I grew up Catholic in an Italian home in the U.S.
I actually know Catholic theology pretty well.
But I'm Protestant in doctrine. Changed many years ago.


Yes. I believe God choses, or groomed, special persons for very special work. However, I just hope you don't believe that God chooses who will be saved. IOW, God chooses the saved, but then it means He also chooses those who will end up in hell, and this cannot be the God I know! Grafted in...It is we gentiles who are grafted in. The Jews are definitely the chosen people, because God knew they would keep accurate records of everything. They had a propensity for passing on oral and written tradition that exists to this day.


God has fulfilled all His promises and covenants.
And Jesus is the ultimate revelation.
_______________________________________________________________


Why the East Coast?
There's more to see on the West Coast.
Check it out.
Cost? It's what you make it. You could stay in hotels for 300$ a night or 120$ a night or 80$ a night.
Ditto for food.
Look into hotels, bed and breakfast, and something called
"agriturismo". If you have kids you might like that one the best.

Airline tix.
Rented auto.
And please don't even attempt to drive in an Italian city.
Just use the car to get from point to point. Even with a GPS, it's still a mess.

It is a beautiful country though and you would like it a lot.

God doesn't make then chooses He chooses then makes according to His chose. heck how long and how many times did the Lord God go on about the coming Christ. Jesus wasn't born and then God says oh yea that's the guy I'm looking for. Israel is what God made it to be, not the other way around. the pot doesn't tell the potter what the pot is or ought to be. the potter forms the pot for its purposes.

and it seems this is what you don't know about the God you say you know:


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


it is dangerous to think God is what one thinks He ought to be in one's own judgement. when it is one is what one is in God's Judgement of what one ought to be.

 

[GodsGrace]

God doesn't make then chooses He chooses then makes according to His chose. heck how long and how many times did the Lord God go on about the coming Christ. Jesus wasn't born and then God says oh yea that's the guy I'm looking for. Israel is what God made it to be, not the other way around. the pot doesn't tell the potter what the pot is or ought to be. the potter forms the pot for its purposes.

and it seems this is what you don't know about the God you say you know:


Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


it is dangerous to think God is what one thinks He ought to be in one's own judgement. when it is one is what one is in God's Judgement of what one ought to be.

Aren't YOU telling ME what YOU think God is in your entire post above?

I know about what you're talking about.
You told me you're not a Calvinist.

The potter could do whatever He wants to do.
The biggest problem in Christianity is trying to reconcile God's goodness with evil.

We keep trying to explain it.
But know what? It can't be explained.

Your post above touches on that.
We could talk about Pharaoh and Mary and Jesus and Noah and Moses and so many others.

What will it accomplish?

This I know for sure:
God doesn't send anyone to hell.
If I find myself there, it'll be because I WANTED to go there.

God is all good and predestines no one to hell.

He is almighty,
He is sovereign,
But He gives us free will to choose Him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It isn't my faith, it's His and to walk in the faith of Jesus Christ, my faith will grow and with that, the "to do" list is thrown away and the question, "What must I do to have eternal life?" is no longer a question to ask.

I feel safe, secure and at peace, do you?

Unless you fall from faith - as the Scriptures warn us about:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a child . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

It's about OUR faith.
That's why Paul warns us to work out our salvation with "fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12).

 

[Copperhead]

Both Calvanism and Arminianism have two things in common... they are both right in what they assert and they are both wrong in what they deny. But it does beg the question.... if one is a believer and has placed their trust in Messiah, why would they waste time worrying about either position? One who hasn't placed their trust in Messiah, then they could care less anyway. We have free will to choose or not. Yeshua knew from before the world began who would choose Him. Once we have chosen to place our destiny in the hands of the Messiah, then it all seems like a moot issue.

If one can lose eternal life, then it stands to reason that it wasn't eternal to begin with. It is the paramount of non sequiturs.... one is granted the free gift of eternal life by trusting in Messiah, but it can be lost because it isn't eternal. And if one can lose eternal life, then we are all doomed. No one is sinless and even the most devout person, their righteousness is as filthy rags, or as the literal Hebrew says.... our righteousness is like a used menstrual cloth. Give the Hebrew language credit for graphic mental images.

And everyone, daily, has committed some sin. A prideful look. Looking down at someone. An impure thought, even a short one that is hardly noticed by the person. A failure to testify of Yeshua to someone. One would have to seek forgiveness almost every second of every day for sin, both known and unknown. Virtually impossible. Especially one that might have occurred just before that semi truck slammed into that car one is riding in and they immediately die on the spot. There has to be some reliance on the idea that Yeshua is able to hold on to that which we have entrusted to Him. Else, who is it we are really placing our trust in? If it is not Him and who He is, then what? It would seem if it is not Him then it must be one's self and one's efforts. Best I can tell, we have no ability to save ourselves. That is why the Father had to sacrifice His own Son.

And if one realizes the gift that has been given them, they will want to live in appreciation of that gift. That doesn't mean we will live perfect lives. We will all fall flat on our face almost daily, but we recognize our failures, seek forgiveness, and get back up and drive on. Knowing that He understands our weaknesses and loves us. And that He paid the ultimate price for us and is going to do everything in His power to hold onto us.

It would seem that there is too much Pharisaical approach to the issue. It turns things into a works righteousness thing and enslaves those individuals with weaker faith into submission to other's ideas of what salvation is and how to live their life. It has such weaker individuals so worried about it that they are no useful good to Messiah here and now, or they just plain give up because they feel they can never live up to the standard. And it allows pride, the deadliest sin of all, to enter into others who then feel they are more righteous than the other guy or gal. The whole thing is a trap to ensnare folks in. It is an academic exercise in futility.

 

[tabletalk]

Both Calvanism and Arminianism have two things in common... they are both right in what they assert and they are both wrong in what they deny. But it does beg the question.... if one is a believer and has placed their trust in Messiah, why would they waste time worrying about either position? One who hasn't placed their trust in Messiah, then they could care less anyway. We have free will to choose or not. Yeshua knew from before the world began who would choose Him. Once we have chosen to place our destiny in the hands of the Messiah, then it all seems like a moot issue.

If one can lose eternal life, then it stands to reason that it wasn't eternal to begin with. It is the paramount of non sequiturs.... one is granted the free gift of eternal life by trusting in Messiah, but it can be lost because it isn't eternal. And if one can lose eternal life, then we are all doomed. No one is sinless and even the most devout person, their righteousness is as filthy rags, or as the literal Hebrew says.... our righteousness is like a used menstrual cloth. Give the Hebrew language credit for graphic mental images.

And everyone, daily, has committed some sin. A prideful look. Looking down at someone. An impure thought, even a short one that is hardly noticed by the person. A failure to testify of Yeshua to someone. One would have to seek forgiveness almost every second of every day for sin, both known and unknown. Virtually impossible. Especially one that might have occurred just before that semi truck slammed into that car one is riding in and they immediately die on the spot. There has to be some reliance on the idea that Yeshua is able to hold on to that which we have entrusted to Him. Else, who is it we are really placing our trust in? If it is not Him and who He is, then what? It would seem if it is not Him then it must be one's self and one's efforts. Best I can tell, we have no ability to save ourselves. That is why the Father had to sacrifice His own Son.

And if one realizes the gift that has been given them, they will want to live in appreciation of that gift. That doesn't mean we will live perfect lives. We will all fall flat on our face almost daily, but we recognize our failures, seek forgiveness, and get back up and drive on. Knowing that He understands our weaknesses and loves us. And that He paid the ultimate price for us and is going to do everything in His power to hold onto us.

It would seem that there is too much Pharisaical approach to the issue. It turns things into a works righteousness thing and enslaves those individuals with weaker faith into submission to other's ideas of what salvation is and how to live their life. It has such weaker individuals so worried about it that they are no useful good to Messiah here and now, or they just plain give up because they feel they can never live up to the standard. And it allows pride, the deadliest sin of all, to enter into others who then feel they are more righteous than the other guy or gal. The whole thing is a trap to ensnare folks in. It is an academic exercise in futility.

Amen.
But, you ask: "....if one is a believer and has placed their trust in Messiah, why would they waste time worrying about either position?"
I'm guessing that each position is attempting to claim that their side better represents God's character.

 

[Copperhead]

Amen.
But, you ask: "....if one is a believer and has placed their trust in Messiah, why would they waste time worrying about either position?"
I'm guessing that each position is attempting to claim that their side better represents God's character.

You could well be correct. I think there are better approaches to that, as we see where it has gotten us thus far.

 

[ScottA]

Both Calvanism and Arminianism have two things in common... they are both right in what they assert and they are both wrong in what they deny. But it does beg the question.... if one is a believer and has placed their trust in Messiah, why would they waste time worrying about either position? One who hasn't placed their trust in Messiah, then they could care less anyway. We have free will to choose or not. Yeshua knew from before the world began who would choose Him. Once we have chosen to place our destiny in the hands of the Messiah, then it all seems like a moot issue.

Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.

...And Stone sharpens both.