Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

You misunderstand what Jesus is saying and we've already covered this numerous times

In John 8:44 He said that they were of the father the devil, and therefore lived to do the lusts of the devil. In the same way he who is of God does the will of God, and hears the words of God.

You actually show my point there Renniks, that there are two kinds of people in this world. Those whose father is the devil and those whose father is God. To say it in another way, there are those who are born (children) of the devil and those who are born (children) of God. And still say it in another way, there are the sons of the wicked one (the tares in the parable of the wheat and the tares) and the sons of the kingdom (the wheat in the parable of the wheat and the tares). And still say it in another way, there are those who are "of God" and those who are "not of God" (of Satan).

Now, apparently you assume if someone is not of God it's because God just ignores them and never gives them the opportunity to become of him. This is contradicted by hundreds of verses in the Bible where men are blamed for Thier own rebellion. You just have no real argument here.
He that is of God - He that loves, fears, and honors God.
The Jews did not choose to obey the commands of God, which proved that they not of him, and added to this was thier rejection of Jesus. Being of God requires seeking him in truth, not just going through the motions, like these people were.

There is no assumption there Renniks. It is clear in scriptures that God had chosen a people for Himself out of all the peoples of the earth, implying that He did not chose all to be His people. And that people is the Israel of God. If one would seek to find out who the Israel of God is, he will find it in scriptures.

You easily forget who the Jews are. They were chosen by God. The Gentiles did not choose to obey God either. But they were, unlike the Jews, not chosen by God. So, you must not take that out in your reading of scriptures. For if you do, and which it seems you do, it leads you to much confusion and mixing up of the truth in scriptures.

You said "The Jews did not choose to obey the commands of God, which proved that they not of him, and added to this was thier rejection of Jesus."

Perhaps, in a sense, that the Jews there did not choose to obey the commands of God which God gave them through Moses, that they could be said to be proven as not "of God". But that is nowhere said in the passage. That which exposed their identity is their not hearing Jesus Christ, His words. Simply put, they are not His sheep, because as Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice".

Tong
R0244

 

[Tong2020]

Will God save you if you don't believe or confess? Yes or no? Quit diverting.

I am not in any way diverting sir. I am just responding accordingly. I must say yet again, sorry, I could not answer an invalid question coming from an understanding of an out of context passage. Put that in the proper context that I may be able to answer it.

Don't you see Renniks? God does not save you if you do this or that. If God saves you, it is because He chose to save you by His grace, according to His will, purpose, pleasure and glory, together with others. And yes, God did not chose all, but only some. If you are among the chosen, then be thankful and honor God, instead of arguing around that God is unjust by doing that, and that it is not that way, but that God saves those who allows and permits Him to save them. Or that God had set salvation requirements to be met and those who meet the requirements gets to have themselves saved. The biblical fact comes to mind, that the yet uncorrupted, sinless and holy Adam, had not met the single and very easy and simple requirement set by God upon him, that is, not to eat of the fruit of one tree amongst the many that were freely given to him to eat. But he failed and could not meet it, or to be more precise, could not continue in it. I could not imagine how you could even think that man now, very different from the unfallen Adam, being corrupted, sinful, unholy, now a slave of sin, is given more requirements to meet on his own, to be saved. Requirements that are not as simple as that given to Adam, such as believing in an invisible God, who gave His only begotten Son, sent Him to the world, became flesh, in the person of the man Jesus, born of the virgin Mary at the time of Pontius Pilate, performed many wonders and miracles, healed the sick, cast out demons, committed no sin, suffered and crucified, died, and was buried, and resurrected back to life on the third day, was seen by many, ascended back to heaven to His Father, in the doctrines of baptism and of the resurrection of the dead, need to confess with the mouth Jesus Christ, do good works, do not sin, etc. etc. Obviously, as had been shown in the father of all mankind, Adam, man cannot meet those on his own.

Not that, we should not believe all that, but that, it is not that which saves you or that which permits or compels God to save you. The truth about all that, which is after all is faith, is that it is through which God saves you and those whom He had chosen to be His people, for the Savior is God and His salvation by grace through faith. And while man could not do that on his own, obviously God took care of that for those whom He had chosen to be His people. He gives them a Helper, no less that the Holy Spirit who will dwell in them.

Tong
R0245

 

[Tong2020]

Let me ask you this...do you believe you are one of the chosen? Why? If God created some for damnation why would you think you aren't one of those?

Wadr, I'd like to give my answer to this question.

Yes, I believe that I am one of the chosen, because I heard His voice and had faith in God and in Jesus Christ.

If I were not one of those chosen, I would not had come to Jesus Christ.

Tong
R246

 

[Tong2020]

How about we add a little context to these verses:

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

If you can't see the conditions for salvation here, let me help you.
1. Whoever comes to me.
2. whoever believes in me.
3.All those the Father gives me will come to me.
Now, can you see this is not an unconditional selection of certain individuals? He repeats three times previously the need for belief on him, to emphasize how it is that one is given to the Son.

Who does the Father give to Him? What had Jesus already told them previous to this?
29"Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Jesus is being evangelistic. He's explaining to people who should have already known, to those who had the Torah, how to come to him.
What is God's will? That everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life. Again, there are conditions! God doesn't just give anyone to Jesus, only those who believe and there is a condition for being raised up on the last day, too. There's no time limit on the need to continue believing and coming to Jesus. It's not a one time and done deal.

The trouble with Calvinists is that they read this passage as a deterministic formula instead of a promise. It's sad, really.

The context does not modify much of what Jesus said in verse 37, that the Father gives to Him them who comes to Him. And in verse 39, it is also clear that those that the Father had given to the Son, Jesus will lose none and He will raise them up in the last day. See? There is no condition in there sir. You say that "whoever comes to me" is a condition. Well, it may well sound to be a condition to you and I don't know why, but it is not. The context does not even suggest it to be. What sense the context makes of the phrase really is that anyone, whoever he may be, rich or poor, will not hunger if he comes to Jesus, who is the bread of life. That goes the same way for the phrase "whoever believes in me", whoever he may be, rich or poor, will not thirst if he believes in Jesus.

Would you say the multitude there whom Jesus miraculously fed with bread and fish and followed Him on the other side of the sea of Galilee, by that, had come to Jesus? Obviously, that is not a coming to Jesus, right? For if that is what coming to Jesus is, then all would have believed in Jesus, which evidently was not the case. So, one's coming to Jesus is only manifested and known when he believes in Jesus Christ. Until then, one is not said to have come to Jesus.

You said "God doesn't just give anyone to Jesus, only those who believe and there is a condition for being raised up on the last day, too." Of course God does not just give anyone to the Son. He have chosen those whom He gives the Son. But to say that only those who believe are those whom He gives to the Son is unfounded. What is according to scriptures is that, those whom the Father gives to the Son are those who will come to Jesus Christ and whom Jesus Christ, who is the Savior, will save and will keep.

Tong
R0247

 

[Tong2020]

Then you are in direct opposition to what the verse says: "And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience",..they knew they were as guilty as the woman was.

Obviously I was referring to the Pharisees and scribes who brought to Him a woman caught in adultery, not the other people there.

Now with regards the others, I could agree that their consciences may have convicted them that they too were sinners like the woman caught in adultery and so walked away, though the passage really does not tell us what they were convicted of. As also such conviction, we don't know if they were later brought to repentance towards faith in Jesus or not.

Tong
R0248

 

[Tong2020]

Were all the Jews promised salvation? How did salvation come to them? In the same way it comes to us, by believing in the promise of the Messiah, whether they were Jewish or not.

It's not about the matter if all the Jews were promised salvation or not or what. The point is, that God was there addressing "My people", not all peoples of the earth. That is why I said, it's another misuse of scriptures.

Tong
R0249

 

[Tong2020]

You are way out of context here:

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
It's not saying unbelievers can't become believers. If that were true, no one could be saved. In fact, we have already been told the order of salvation in verse 9: Belief comes first, so quit misusing scripture and trying to reverse the order.

Way out of context? Can't get you there.

And I did not say that unbelievers can't become believers sir. What I said is "It is not as if the psalmist is an unbeliever who calls to God there. Remember, how can one call to God in whom he had not believed (Rom.10:14)?" Let me spell that to you since apparently you did not get my point. The Psalmist was a believer in God. That is why he can call to God. Now, the unbeliever, can he call to God? No. As Paul said in Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?...." So, what I am saying is different from what you say there that an unbeliever can't become believer.

You said "In fact, we have already been told the order of salvation in verse 9: Belief comes first, so quit misusing scripture and trying to reverse the order." Order of salvation? According to whom? You perhaps, for definitely it is not scriptures.

Tong
R0250

 

[Tong2020]

Of course God initiates a relationship with people. And Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost, which is every human on earth, not a few selected individuals. "For God so loved the World." isn't "For God so loved a few people in the world."

That's right, it is God who initiates a relationship with people such as that of Zacchaeus. Now, Jesus is now in heaven and not on earth. Did that change? No sir. It is still God who initiates a relationship with people. You know what that means, don't you?

You said "And Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost, which is every human on earth, not a few selected individuals." That is what you wanted to believe and is what you believe, even while such as view is foolish by itself, and even while reality testifies against that, and even while, that view makes God a failure, and even while that view contradicts scripture.

Such a view is foolish in that, why would Jesus have to seek if every human on earth you say is lost? Reality testifies against such as view in that, the reality is that not every human that ever lived on earth got to be like Zacchaeus, as being one that was sought out by God and is found. Such view also makes God a failure according to such a reality then. Also, such a view is contrary to scriptures in that Jesus speaks only of bringing to the fold "My sheep" and of saving "His people" and of being the savior of His body, the church.

Tong
R0251

 

[Renniks]

Perhaps, in a sense, that the Jews there did not choose to obey the commands of God which God gave them through Moses, that they could be said to be proven as not "of God". But that is nowhere said in the passage. That which exposed their identity is their not hearing Jesus Christ, His words. Simply put, they are not His sheep, because as Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice".

Like I said before, you read it backward. Why tell someone that "My sheep hear My voice." unless you are asking them to listen and become sheep? In your backward system, I guess Jesus is just mocking people who are incapable of responding to him? And also, as I said before, if even one of those who heard him responded to the gospel at any time, your whole theory is wrong. And we know there were Jews who were saved at Pentecost. This isn't a formula for deciding who is born "IN" and who is born "Out" it's an invitation to join the flock.

 

[Renniks]

I am not in any way diverting sir. I am just responding accordingly. I must say yet again, sorry, I could not answer an invalid question coming from an understanding of an out of context passage. Put that in the proper context that I may be able to answer it.

Don't you see Renniks? God does not save you if you do this or that. If God saves you, it is because He chose to save you by His grace, according to His will, purpose, pleasure and glory, together with others. And yes, God did not chose all, but only some. If you are among the chosen, then be thankful and honor God, instead of arguing around that God is unjust by doing that, and that it is not that way, but that God saves those who allows and permits Him to save them. Or that God had set salvation requirements to be met and those who meet the requirements gets to have themselves saved. The biblical fact comes to mind, that the yet uncorrupted, sinless and holy Adam, had not met the single and very easy and simple requirement set by God upon him, that is, not to eat of the fruit of one tree amongst the many that were freely given to him to eat. But he failed and could not meet it, or to be more precise, could not continue in it. I could not imagine how you could even think that man now, very different from the unfallen Adam, being corrupted, sinful, unholy, now a slave of sin, is given more requirements to meet on his own, to be saved. Requirements that are not as simple as that given to Adam, such as believing in an invisible God, who gave His only begotten Son, sent Him to the world, became flesh, in the person of the man Jesus, born of the virgin Mary at the time of Pontius Pilate, performed many wonders and miracles, healed the sick, cast out demons, committed no sin, suffered and crucified, died, and was buried, and resurrected back to life on the third day, was seen by many, ascended back to heaven to His Father, in the doctrines of baptism and of the resurrection of the dead, need to confess with the mouth Jesus Christ, do good works, do not sin, etc. etc. Obviously, as had been shown in the father of all mankind, Adam, man cannot meet those on his own.

Not that, we should not believe all that, but that, it is not that which saves you or that which permits or compels God to save you. The truth about all that, which is after all is faith, is that it is through which God saves you and those whom He had chosen to be His people, for the Savior is God and His salvation by grace through faith. And while man could not do that on his own, obviously God took care of that for those whom He had chosen to be His people. He gives them a Helper, no less that the Holy Spirit who will dwell in them.

Tong
R0245

It's not either/or. There's no conflict between God saving you by grace and requiring you to believe in order to be saved or remain saved. And this is why you refuse to answer the question because you know that the Bible tells us over and over and over again that faith is required for salvation. And no, we don't do it by ourselves, we rely on God to strengthen us, and yes, we still fail and sin, but we continue to rely on him or we give up and become apostate. To believe otherwise is to embrace theologically determinism, where God just kicks the door down and drags some to heaven and leaves some to rot in hell. Frankly, that's not the gospel of grace. It turns God into a tyrant and makes him responsible for our lack of faith.

 

[Renniks]

Wadr, I'd like to give my answer to this question.

Yes, I believe that I am one of the chosen, because I heard His voice and had faith in God and in Jesus Christ.

If I were not one of those chosen, I would not had come to Jesus Christ.

Tong
R246

What was so special about you, that God chose you over someone else? Lots of false teachers say they hear God's voice, too. The fact is, you can't know if you are chosen or not if God is just picking some for his team and rejecting others for no discernable reason.

 

[Renniks]

God does not just give anyone to the Son. He have chosen those whom He gives the Son. But to say that only those who believe are those whom He gives to the Son is unfounded.

As long as you ignore most of the Bible perhaps you can make this statement with a straight face.
It's such an absurd statement I can only suggest that you throw away your "I'm chosen for salvation." glasses and read the Bible as written.
Look at Matthew 22:14 ("Many are called but few are chosen.") from a free will perspective, for instance, instead of reading individual election into it.
"Many are called but few are chosen." Very Calvinistic sounding verse, right? Only if you already have a Calvinistic bent though. If you never had been cursed with that teaching you would see it quite differently.

The man in Matt 22:12 responded to the invitation. But his lack of the garment proves he doesn’t belong at the feast, and he is rightly banished. What is the “wedding garment”? The gift of salvation freely offered in the gospel. Only those who receive this gift will be seated at the wedding banquet of the Lamb at the consummation of all things.
In other words: Many hear, but few believe: many are members of the visible, but few of the invisible church.
Then we could go through the faith chapter and ask ourselves why people are being commended for their faith if they are irresistibly chosen to have it? But, who has time for that?

 

[Renniks]

It's not about the matter if all the Jews were promised salvation or not or what. The point is, that God was there addressing "My people", not all peoples of the earth. That is why I said, it's another misuse of scriptures.

Tong
R0249

Anyone can become "of Israel" Jew or Gentile alike. So, God's people has now been revealed as being all peoples on the earth who respond to his call.

 

[Renniks]

ou said "In fact, we have already been told the order of salvation in verse 9: Belief comes first, so quit misusing scripture and trying to reverse the order." Order of salvation? According to whom? You perhaps, for definitely it is not scriptures.

This is the order given in scripture over and over again, but the Calvinists always try to reverse it and say you have to be regenerated in order to be regenerated. Guess you all think we have to be saved twice.

 

[Tong2020]

Like I said before, you read it backward. Why tell someone that "My sheep hear My voice." unless you are asking them to listen and become sheep? In your backward system, I guess Jesus is just mocking people who are incapable of responding to him? And also, as I said before, if even one of those who heard him responded to the gospel at any time, your whole theory is wrong. And we know there were Jews who were saved at Pentecost. This isn't a formula for deciding who is born "IN" and who is born "Out" it's an invitation to join the flock.

No I don't read backwards sir. Sorry to disappoint you there.

You asked "Why tell someone that "My sheep hear My voice." unless you are asking them to listen and become sheep?". What Jesus said there was obviously not for them, for they obviously do not hear what Jesus says. And Jesus knows that, does He not? Those words were for the writing in scriptures for us, as all scriptures is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. Jesus was telling them about Himself, that He is the Christ, the Good Shepherd, but they do not believe. You should not ignore or take light, that Jesus presented Himself to them as the Good Shepherd of the sheep, His sheep. He is calling out seeking for His sheep who are lost, that they may hear His voice and come to Him and so will have been found. He was not there asking people to become His sheep. You objection there is not because of what is written there in those passages, but is because of what you already have there fixed in your mind.

You said "In your backward system, I guess Jesus is just mocking people who are incapable of responding to him?" Why would Jesus mock people? He is no sinner, remember? In all that Jesus did, there was purpose, and are all of the Father's will. Jesus could just had prayed to the Father and all the sick people be cured instantly. But He did not do that, and instead did just as He had done. Was He mocking the people? Of course not. Does not Jesus know of what will happen before it will happen? Yes He does. So, is He mocking people whenever He tells them something or ask them questions or tell them to do something when He already knows that they won't? Jesus is Deity, so you can think of all that He had done as mockery, for He knows of it already, and could have done it or not have done it, as you would think He could and would have done according to your thinking, him being the all powerful God. There is purpose in all that He did sir. You don't have any argument there sir.

You said "And also, as I said before, if even one of those who heard him responded to the gospel at any time, your whole theory is wrong. Yes, you indeed said that speculation. I suggest you don't get to be convinced and believe on the basis of the speculation you make up in your mind, but in the scriptures that was written for doctrine.

It's your call. If you believe that one who is not a sheep can transform into a sheep, believe as you will. If you believe that tares can grow to become wheat, believe as you will. If you believe that one can decide and choose concerning his birth, believe as you will. Or you can believe that a lost sheep can be found and is saved.

Tong
R0252

 

[Renniks]

What Jesus said there was obviously not for them, for they obviously do not hear what Jesus says.

Really? You want me to believe Jesus wasn't talking to the people he was talking to? See how absurd it gets when you start down this road of some being chosen for salvation?
I can prove you wrong with just a couple verses:
"Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep."

Why did he tell them he was the gate? Because they didn't understand,so he spelled it out for them! He gave them every chance to come to him. If they didn't, it wasn't because he irresistibly consigned them to damnation, but because they refused to hear.

 

[Renniks]

Or you can believe that a lost sheep can be found and is saved.

We are all lost unless or until we respond to his call and become found. There's no respecting of persons with God.

 

[Tong2020]

It's not either/or. There's no conflict between God saving you by grace and requiring you to believe in order to be saved or remain saved. And this is why you refuse to answer the question because you know that the Bible tells us over and over and over again that faith is required for salvation. And no, we don't do it by ourselves, we rely on God to strengthen us, and yes, we still fail and sin, but we continue to rely on him or we give up and become apostate. To believe otherwise is to embrace theologically determinism, where God just kicks the door down and drags some to heaven and leaves some to rot in hell. Frankly, that's not the gospel of grace. It turns God into a tyrant and makes him responsible for our lack of faith.

Perhaps, you are convinced that there is no conflict in your belief. But it is not whether there is conflict or not in your belief, but what the scriptures says. Though, I must point out that there is conflict between grace freely given and grace given only if some conditions are met by the sinner, one who is captive, in slavery to sin, helpless and could really do nothing, the very reason why he need one to save him. But more than that, scriptures is clear about the truth that God is Him who saves and His salvation is by grace, not coming from man nor of man's doing, and is free as that of a gift, and is accomplished by God through faith and not through works.

If you believe that I don't answer the question for the reasons you think, that's your call. I have already told you, straighten up your question and I will answer. I have asked you a relative question which you did not answer. Why did you not? It was a valid question after all. Here let me ask that again and let's see your answer. It's not deviation sir. It's showing the folly of the question you ask of me to answer. Actually, your answers to those, in a way answers your question.

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that one will only be saved when he is circumcised in the flesh, and shall have perfectly kept the law of Moses, will you be saved?

If you do those things, yet believe, teach and preach that Jesus Christ is not Deity and is only man, will you be saved?

If you do those things, yet does not repent of your sins and so live a sinful life, will you be saved?

The gospel of grace is, for one, not a gospel of works, that is, of man's work. For man's work had been shown throughout history, is wickedness, and the intents of man's heart is evil continually, even from his youth. Salvation is God's work, not man's.

If God had chosen a people from among the rest of the peoples of the world, to be His people, to serve His will, purpose, and for His pleasure and glory, and He did, why are you offended by God? Can God even offend you?

Had God not chosen Abraham and the rest He did not? Were you offended by that? Had God not made of Abraham a great nation who are his posterity, that is, Israel, whom God had not only chosen but in fact purposely made, to be His people, among the peoples of the world? Were you offended by that? If not, why then do you seem offended that God had chosen a people among the peoples of the earth, saved them from sin and hell, and make them His people and give them everlasting life? Was not Abraham chosen by grace? Was not Israel chosen by grace? So why do you seem to be now offended that God, by the same grace, had chosen a people among the peoples of the earth, saved them from sin and hell, and make them His people and give them everlasting life?

Tong
R0253

 

[Tong2020]

What was so special about you, that God chose you over someone else? Lots of false teachers say they hear God's voice, too. The fact is, you can't know if you are chosen or not if God is just picking some for his team and rejecting others for no discernable reason.

I know nothing special in me then sir, but now I'd say I am special because of Jesus Christ who is in me. Don't you want me to be among the chosen? If you have any objection, ask God, who had chosen, not me.

You say "The fact is, you can't know if you are chosen or not if God is just picking some for his team and rejecting others for no discernable reason." Why not sir? Well, the apostles, in scriptures, tells us that the Christians (of course only meaning to refer to the true ones) were a chosen people. Are you not a Christian? I believe you are, and so you are among the chosen.

You are so disturbed and offended by your thought that God is just picking some for his team and rejecting others for no discernable reason. And I did not even say that. What I said is that God is wise. His thoughts are in no comparison with ours. Man's thoughts of what God should not do or should do, could not be made a basis of the righteousness, justice, and wisdom of God. Scriptures must be the basis. If scriptures says God, by grace, had chosen a people to be His people, we should believe that to speak of His righteousness, justice, and wisdom, among others. Let me remind you of what God said to Moses, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.". Also, let me remind you what Paul said concerning this that God said to Moses.

Romans 9: 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Tong
R0254

 

[Tong2020]

As long as you ignore most of the Bible perhaps you can make this statement with a straight face.
It's such an absurd statement I can only suggest that you throw away your "I'm chosen for salvation." glasses and read the Bible as written.
Look at Matthew 22:14 ("Many are called but few are chosen.") from a free will perspective, for instance, instead of reading individual election into it.
"Many are called but few are chosen." Very Calvinistic sounding verse, right? Only if you already have a Calvinistic bent though. If you never had been cursed with that teaching you would see it quite differently.

The man in Matt 22:12 responded to the invitation. But his lack of the garment proves he doesn’t belong at the feast, and he is rightly banished. What is the “wedding garment”? The gift of salvation freely offered in the gospel. Only those who receive this gift will be seated at the wedding banquet of the Lamb at the consummation of all things.
In other words: Many hear, but few believe: many are members of the visible, but few of the invisible church.
Then we could go through the faith chapter and ask ourselves why people are being commended for their faith if they are irresistibly chosen to have it? But, who has time for that?

It is exactly because I don't ignore any scriptures that I could make such a statement. And according to scriptures, those whom the Father gives to the Son are those who will come to Jesus Christ and whom Jesus Christ, who is the Savior, will save and will keep.

You asked, what is the “wedding garment”? You said it is the gift of salvation freely offered in the gospel. And may I ask, what exactly is that?

You said "In other words: Many hear, but few believe". That is not in other words, but is really another. For what scriptures says "Many are called but few are chosen.", far from what you say there.

Many are called but few are chosen. That was a statement in parable. It was also used in Mt. 20:16, in parable. Perhaps you can also tell us what you understand of it in that verse. Do they mean the same thing?

Tong
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