Which doesn't answer my question. How does one get from recognizing that the atonement is for them to being justified?
Saved Or Predestined ???
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Your previous question was "And how do we get from recognizing we need that atonement to being justified?" Your question now is "How does one get from recognizing that the atonement is for them to being justified?" Two different questions. Both questions are constructed in a way that is evident of your confusion as to what atonement is.
Can you tell us what to you is atonement spoken in scriptures relative to sin, in the OT and especially in relation to Jesus Christ in the NT? For it seems to me that you take atonement differently.
As for me, Jews and Gentiles alike, being separated from God and are enemies and in hostility with God because of sin, the atoning sacrifice of Jesus had taken away this hostility so that all (not referring to Adam and all his posterity, but meaning to say not only the Jews but also the Gentiles), may be reconciled to God, those living then and those yet to be born into existence.
While atonement is involved in the salvation of God, atonement is not justification nor is it salvation from sin and hell. Atonement is different from justification, different from redemption.
Tong
R0474
Hello @Pianoworldstage,
In both the verses you have quoted, the issue is not salvation. Salvation is not a matter of election, even though in His foreknowledge God knows in advance those who will believe the gospel of God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Predestination is in regard to what accompanies salvation, be it our inheritance, or the adopted as sons, or that we be holy and without blame before Him on the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ on our behalf, or that we be conformed to the image of His son (Romans 8:29),.
Praise God!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
In Christianity, atonement refers to the needed reconciliation between sinful mankind and the holy God.
All my questions have been the same. If I ask how to access the atonement, it's the same question.
In your reading of scriptures, would you say that Jesus made atonement for Adam and all his posterity?
Tong
R0475
Of course.
Isaiah 53:5-6
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
I guess you don't plan on ever answering?
That scriptures does not say nor imply that Jesus' atonement was for Adam and all his posterity. For one, what sense is Jesus' atonement for Adam and those who were already dead when He had made atonement?
As to your question, I can't give an answer in the sense that I don't see atonement as something that is to be accessed.
Tong
R0476
Then I guess no one has actually been atoned for?
Yeah, if you just go ahead and ignore all the times that Christ's death is said to be for "all" you can pretend it isn't for Adam and all of minkind...but why would anyone do that?
Of course Jesus Christ atoned for the many, but not for each and every person who had ever lived and will yet be born.
To say, believe, and teach that the "all" in the scriptures for whom Christ is said to be a propitiation or atonement refers to each and every person who had ever lived and will yet be born is simply erroneous and foolishness. For atonement makes sense to the living and the yet to be born, but not to those who are already dead and in their graves. So, the "all" in the scriptures for whom Christ is said to be a propitiation or atonement could only refer to the living in those times when Jesus Christ made atonement, and to the yet to be born people. To force that the "all" in the scriptures for whom Christ is said to be a propitiation or atonement refers to each and every person who had ever lived and will yet be born would be forcing that Jesus atoned for even Adam, Eve, Cain, those whom God condemned and destroyed until the generation of Noah, those whom God condemned and destroyed in the flood in Noah's time, the Egyptian firstborns whom God killed in the Exodus, Pharaoh and his men whom God destroyed, the idolatrous children of Israel whom God killed in wilderness, those whom God killed in the taking of the land of Canaan, the false prophets, Judas, and all the pagans and sinners who had lived and died, whom God had given up to uncleanness, to vile passions, and to a debased mind, before Jesus' sacrifice of atonement. And that, you only contend to believe but could not obviously explain or tell us why Jesus Christ would have made atonement for them dead people. And that even make it foolishness when you say and I quote "that atonement refers to the needed reconciliation between sinful mankind and the holy God." Foolishness in that, how could dead people in the grave be reconciled to God, and what for?
Tong
R0477
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Ah, how you would limit God! It's sad, really. How was Abraham saved again?
Romans 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”
9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
Why do you want to limit the atonement? If Abraham's sins were atoned for, long before Christ was born as a human, why would you claim others who lived before the cross were not atoned for? If Christ didn't die for Cain, why did God blame Cain for his sin? Could Cain have made a different choice if he had truly believed and trusted God, even if he only had part of the information about who God is? Of course, he could have!
Romans 1:20
For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
From the creation, we have been given enough knowledge and enough light to trust in God.
Those of Noah's day were destroyed because they refused God! Would God be just in destroying those who had no other choice but defy him? The fact that there was a righteous man at that time proves my point! Was Noah not justified by the cross? The resurrection of Christ doesn't only work in one direction, else no one in the past could have been saved.
All the people that you mention who God destroyed were destroyed because they didn't follow the light God gave them, otherwise God is just a horrible monster who likes to kill his creation for no fault of their own.
BTW, there are no dead people. They all still exist somewhere. And they all had their chance at salvation in their lifetimes.
There's no limiting God nor of atonement sir. It's simply the truth about atonement. And atonement is different from justification. So, please stay with the issue of atonement.
You said "Those of Noah's day were destroyed because they refused God!". Also you said "All the people that you mention who God destroyed were destroyed because they didn't follow the light God gave them". And that's the point. Did Jesus made atonement for these people? Please answer that, if you will. If yes, my second question question is, what for? This question you seem not care to answer.
You said "BTW, there are no dead people." Well scriptures says there are, contrary to what you say there. And I'll go with scriptures anytime and every time.
Tong
R0480
Of course he did! What don't you understand about that? How can anyone refuse what they were never offered? He did it so they would have the same opportunity for redemption as everyone who ever lived.
In your scenario, they could not have refused God, because they never knew he desired thier redemption. How can God be just in destroying those who never know he exists?
Are you one of those " soul sleep" promoter's? To die physically doesn't cancel out the life of our souls for an instant. Every one is alive somewhere.
Scriptures speaks of people as having died and so are dead. Yet you on the other hand say there are no dead people. Did Jesus die? Yes He did. Was He dead for at least three days? Yes He was. Now He would not have been said to have resurrected from the dead if He were not dead, right? Right. So, there goes your statement shown to be false. But if you insist, the so be it with you. I will go with what scriptures says.
Tong
R0482
So you seem to be saying that Jesus made atonement for Adam, Eve, Cain, those whom God condemned and destroyed until the generation of Noah, those whom God condemned and destroyed in the flood in Noah's time, the Egyptian firstborns whom God killed in the Exodus, Pharaoh and his men whom God destroyed, the idolatrous children of Israel whom God killed in wilderness, those whom God killed in the taking of the land of Canaan, the false prophets, Judas, and all the pagans and sinners who had lived and died before the cross, whom God had given up to uncleanness, to vile passions, and to a debased mind, so they would have the same opportunity for redemption as everyone else. So now, tell us, how were these dead people who are in the grave, given the same opportunity for redemption as everyone else when Jesus Christ made atonement?
You asked "How can God be just in destroying those who never know he exists?" Remember, since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that sinful mankind is without excuse.
Tong
R0483
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You know full well I'm not saying people don't physically die. Can you for once just speak to the issue instead of going in another direction? As a man Jesus could physically die. His soul and spirit is forever, no beginning or end.
They were given that chance while alive. Otherwise they would have just been disposable people created so God could kill them. This is proven by how God spoke to Cain:
…5but He had no regard for Cain and his offering. So Cain became very angry, and his countenance fell. 6“Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why is your face downcast? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it.”…
Obviously, Cain could have done right and been saved, as Abel was.
"Remember, since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that sinful mankind is without excuse,"
Exactly, and if they never were offered redemption, they have the perfect excuse at judgment day. You can't accept what you were never offered.
The question and issue is not about whether all those people were offered salvation or not. The subject of our discussion is atonement for which I have pointed out is different from justification and from redemption. The question and issue is "how were these dead people who are in the grave, given the same opportunity for redemption as everyone else when Jesus Christ made atonement?" If you say that your answer is what you said in your post there, then evidently you are confusing, if not mistaking, atonement with justification and redemption.
Tong
R0487
How so? Jesus made Atonement for everyone, no exceptions. You can not claim salvation was offered to people whose sins he didn't die for. That makes no sense whatsoever.
So, you just here repeat your claim that Jesus made atonement for everyone and not answer my question. And what you say in your second statement just shows that you are mistaking atonement with justification and redemption.
Now let me repost for you to address:
The question and issue is "how were these dead people who are in the grave, given the same opportunity for redemption as everyone else when Jesus Christ made atonement?"
If you can't tell me how, just say so.
Tong
R0490
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