Science is bringing us closer than ever to proving God is real

[ScottA]

Except - you haven't shown any confusion about any of those things. Honest discourse calls for you to at least show evidence of confusion - assuming honesty is a Christian moral....
All you managed to do was pretend I was someone who demanded proof of your god - which is decidedly not true. An honest person would have simply asked the question - 'Are you one of those nasty Atheists that demands proof of my god?' Because if you had the integrity to do that, you would have learned what I had to tell after the fact of your gross assumption - that many Atheist/Secular Humanists are only asking for reasonable evidence. And so far, the best you can do is parrot this lame apologetic about the 'Woo' your religion came up with about hidden and limited 'evidence' that no doubt requires one to 'open their heart to the Holy Moly' in order to understand. Isn't that convenient?

In my 5+ decades of engaging Christians, I have seen the evolution of apologetics. It used to be "You're just not reading it right! If you did, you would learn the Truth!" Then the excuse became "You have to study the bible in its context!" But after showing that the correct context didn't magically make the ridiculous sensible, the excuse became.... "You'll never understand what we do because..... um..... Satan has darkened your evil, black heart!!"

And hey - credit where credit is due - that's an AWESOME excuse! Because it allows the Christian an escape from all the questions even their Pastors, Priests, and Ministers have no rational answer to - and demonize those of us making you so uncomfortable. It's almost as if your faith is so fragile that you have to either shout down any unbelievers - or run away.

Another part of the evolution of apologetics is the trend of progressive Christians to quietly cast aside any number of stories and claims because they simply could no longer look anyone in the eye and claim that Jonah living in a whale was anything more than metaphor - or justify their gods command to slaughter homosexuals, disobedient children, or women holding their babies.... while allowing its soldiers to keep all the virgins effectively as sex slaves. I see more Christians every day who no longer believe that the virgin birth, talking snakes and donkeys, the sun standing still, and many other claims - are literal. And of course they now have to deal with the 'real' Christians that chastise them as Heretics. And as much fun is it might be for me to see Christians spitting on each other - there's also a profound sadness that attends.

You expressed confusion about this "odd topic" (did you forget already?):

What an odd topic for Christians to be excited about. In my 55 years of engaging them, they have consistently made a few claims quite clear:

- God can never be proven by science.
- Faith is the only thing needed to believe things that are unproven.
- (corollary) If god were proven, faith would become unnecessary, thus diminishing the role of the church, as there would be no need to hear sermons about things that are now facts, instead of just faith-based claims that require constant reinforcement (and tithing).

I'm not sure the (very profitable) institutions of Christianity really want their god proven....

 

[Strider324]

Well, instead of unscientific ranting, enter the conversation with your understanding of who/what placed FEAR in his heart to RUN

So, that's a 'no' to you being able to comprehend natural explanations. And that's a 'no' to you having any rational explanation for why your god ignores trillions of prayers.

 

[Strider324]

You expressed confusion about this "odd topic" (did you forget already?):

There is no confusion about science in any post I have made. Or about proof. You decided to pretend I was someone that demanded proof of your god when that is not the case - which is at least disingenuous, if not down right dishonest. And I note the absence of any apology for your misrepresentation. Is apologizing not a Christian moral?

I expressed confusion as to why Christians have claimed no one can prove their god, but then get excited that science might prove their god. I readily admit being confused when Christians contradict themselves. A contradiction you have not even attempted to explain. Do you have any plans of doing that? Or do you need to create more strawmen to bash?

 

[Brakelite]

Thanx for so eloquently outlining the fact that species evolve over billions of years.
And isn't if fortunate that the empathy that moves social animals to generally prefer cooperation over mass individual annihilation evolved over 75 million years ago - eventually resulting in primitive Man seeking to encourage cooperation and express compassion millions of years before religions decided to take credit for inventing it?

Still, we have much room for continued social evolution. Perhaps one day we won't have large groups that use their holy texts to justify the slaughter of 6 million members of their sister religion. Or other large groups that fly planes into buildings in the name of their 'religion of peace'. Or groups that demonize gay and trans children. Or groups that infiltrate school boards for the sole purpose of throwing out actual science and history books to replace them with ID nonsense and racial revisionism. Yes. I have a dream.....

A dream built on false science and supposition and ideological fanaticism.

 

[ScottA]

There is no confusion about science in any post I have made. Or about proof. You decided to pretend I was someone that demanded proof of your god when that is not the case - which is at least disingenuous, if not down right dishonest. And I note the absence of any apology for your misrepresentation. Is apologizing not a Christian moral?

I expressed confusion as to why Christians have claimed no one can prove their god, but then get excited that science might prove their god. I readily admit being confused when Christians contradict themselves. A contradiction you have not even attempted to explain. Do you have any plans of doing that? Or do you need to create more strawmen to bash?

Typical. Coming full circle in a circular argument.

But no, it is you who is evading the issue. I did indeed explained, saying you don't understand--like someone who has never been kissed trying to debate something they know nothing about. In which case (yours by definition), proof of God is the typical argument. Which I gave in example to explain the problem of you not understanding what you don't understand. You may as well have stood by the ocean and voiced your opinion of it only having knowledge of the beach and not what lies beneath the waves, as if you had never gone in.

So, here you are still on the beach, still not knowing what you are talking about. Oh, but you have plenty to say about those who do. Like I said, by definition, You are that "strawman." I called you out--and you showed yourself.

 

[Strider324]

A dream built on false science and supposition and ideological fanaticism.

Yes, I'm quite aware that for many Christians - false science = any science that explodes your religious claims.

 

[Strider324]

Typical. Coming full circle in a circular argument.

But no, it is you who is evading the issue. I did indeed explain, saying you don't understand--like someone who has never been kissed trying to debate something they know nothing about. In which case (yours by definition), proof of God is the typical argument. Which I gave in example to explain the problem of you not understanding what you don't understand. You may as well have stood by the ocean voiced your opinion only having knowledge of the beach and not what lies beneath the waves, as if you had never gone in.

So, here you are still on the beach, still not knowing what you are talking about. Oh, but you have plenty to say about those who do. Like I said, by definition, You are that "strawman." I called you out--and you showed yourself.

So, you continue to lie about me demanding proof of your god. I guess lying is a 'moral' for you. But cool story about the beach and stuff. I love the beach.

 

[Matthias]

Science and history aren’t enemies of faith.

 

[David in NJ]

So, that's a 'no' to you being able to comprehend natural explanations. And that's a 'no' to you having any rational explanation for why your god ignores trillions of prayers.

A dream built on false science and supposition and ideological fanaticism.

there is FACTUAL science which is True and is Verifiable

and then there is man-made science based on philosophical beliefs mixed with physical elements

 

[talons]

But there isn’t a great falling away.

I have dreams , some of them are about my future and the future of others too . Yes , there is a falling away in progress , IMO .
A dream I had in 2015 .
***************************************************
I am standing in Heaven and there is book that no one can open. I am now crouched down with my face on the firmament and I am crying because there is no one to open the book. I am told they have found some One to open the book, so I stand back up and hear this. A loud booming voice reporting, "10,000* Quit Following!", "8,000* Quit Following!", "12,000* Quit Following!" and on and on the numbers and "quit following" continued. There was a great bitterness and disdain in the booming voice as the numbers were read out.
******************************************************
The next morning when I awoke I was all happy and felt great, which is very unusual for me. The numbers were always in the thousands, but what the exact numbers are I don't recall that is what the * is about.

So is this what my dream was about? I remembered my dream when I heard about the UMC schism, and many of the conservative Methodist churches now leaving their denomination rather than embrace homosexual inclusion amongst the clergy. Though the conservatives were leaving a very old and established Christian denomination, those staying to embrace homosexuality may be the ones God was speaking of, who have now "quit following" the Lord to stay in their denomination.

United Methodists Down 7,659 Churches As Exit Window Ends​

1 in 4 UMC congregations have now disaffiliated in the largest US denominational schism since the Civil War. Will African Methodists leave next?

United Methodists Down 7,659 Churches As Exit Window Ends - Christianity Today

1 in 4 UMC congregations have now disaffiliated in the largest US denominational schism since the Civil War. Will African Methodists leave next?

www.christianitytoday.com

The rupture of the United Methodist Church (UMC) is nearly complete. As the window closes on a temporary plan allowing disaffiliations, nearly 1 out of 4 of the denomination’s 30,000 congregations decided to split over issues of sexuality and authority.

This month marked the final push to exit before the December 31 deadline. In that time, another 74 churches in Florida voted to leave, plus 51 more in Illinois, 152 in Mississippi, 8 in New Mexico, and 36 across three regions in Texas... In the South and Midwest, the UMC lost hundreds of churches this year. Nearly 500 exited the denomination in Tennessee, along with 750 in Texas, 672 in North Carolina, 623 in Georgia, 598 in Ohio, 452 in Pennsylvania, and 345 in Virginia. In some conferences, more than half of churches are no longer part of the UMC.

When regional conferences ratified the last batch of disaffiliations, the tally came to 5,642 congregations departing in 2023 and a total of 7,659 over the past four years, according to United Methodist News. The thousands of disaffiliations represent the conclusion of decades of UMC debates, proposals, and gatherings focused on sexuality...
30,000 congregations decided to split over issues of sexuality and authority.

 

[talons]

Will African Methodists leave next?

I thought I would research that , the article quoted above is a year and half old .

1 million-plus Africans vote to leave UMC after liberal delegates chose rainbow flag over Bible

After more than a million Bible-affirming Africans split from the United Methodist Church this week, a longtime UMC member predicts that number will keep growing on the African continent.

afn.net

 

[Strider324]

I have dreams , some of them are about my future and the future of others too . Yes , there is a falling away in progress , IMO .
A dream I had in 2015 .
***************************************************
I am standing in Heaven and there is book that no one can open. I am now crouched down with my face on the firmament and I am crying because there is no one to open the book. I am told they have found some One to open the book, so I stand back up and hear this. A loud booming voice reporting, "10,000* Quit Following!", "8,000* Quit Following!", "12,000* Quit Following!" and on and on the numbers and "quit following" continued. There was a great bitterness and disdain in the booming voice as the numbers were read out.
******************************************************
The next morning when I awoke I was all happy and felt great, which is very unusual for me. The numbers were always in the thousands, but what the exact numbers are I don't recall that is what the * is about.

So is this what my dream was about? I remembered my dream when I heard about the UMC schism, and many of the conservative Methodist churches now leaving their denomination rather than embrace homosexual inclusion amongst the clergy. Though the conservatives were leaving a very old and established Christian denomination, those staying to embrace homosexuality may be the ones God was speaking of, who have now "quit following" the Lord to stay in their denomination.

United Methodists Down 7,659 Churches As Exit Window Ends​

1 in 4 UMC congregations have now disaffiliated in the largest US denominational schism since the Civil War. Will African Methodists leave next?
The rupture of the United Methodist Church (UMC) is nearly complete. As the window closes on a temporary plan allowing disaffiliations, nearly 1 out of 4 of the denomination’s 30,000 congregations decided to split over issues of sexuality and authority.

This month marked the final push to exit before the December 31 deadline. In that time, another 74 churches in Florida voted to leave, plus 51 more in Illinois, 152 in Mississippi, 8 in New Mexico, and 36 across three regions in Texas... In the South and Midwest, the UMC lost hundreds of churches this year. Nearly 500 exited the denomination in Tennessee, along with 750 in Texas, 672 in North Carolina, 623 in Georgia, 598 in Ohio, 452 in Pennsylvania, and 345 in Virginia. In some conferences, more than half of churches are no longer part of the UMC.

When regional conferences ratified the last batch of disaffiliations, the tally came to 5,642 congregations departing in 2023 and a total of 7,659 over the past four years, according to United Methodist News. The thousands of disaffiliations represent the conclusion of decades of UMC debates, proposals, and gatherings focused on sexuality...
30,000 congregations decided to split over issues of sexuality and authority.

This data is evidence of a falling away in the US, but does not address the dramatic increase in Christianity in 3rd world nations. And if Christians are leaving one Christian group just to join another, I don’t think that qualifies as a ‘falling away’. Further, do you think Jesus supports this demonizing of homosexual clergy? Is there data on how many left their congregations due to pedophile clergy?

 

[talons]

This data is evidence of a falling away in the US, but does not address the dramatic increase in Christianity in 3rd world nations.

Post #91 above talks about Africa .

And if Christians are leaving one Christian group just to join another, I don’t think that qualifies as a ‘falling away’.

If Christians are leaving a Christian group to join a NON-Christian group it would certainly qualify as a falling away !

Further, do you think Jesus supports this demonizing of homosexual clergy?

So do you believe in demons/devils/unclean spirits ?

 

[Strider324]

Post #91 above talks about Africa .

If Christians are leaving a Christian group to join a NON-Christian group it would certainly qualify as a falling away !

So do you believe in demons/devils/unclean spirits ?

Yeah, when posts are segmented this way, I’m afraid I’m too stupid to figure out how to respond in kind on my phone. I’ll have to wait until I’m home on my PC.

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, I'm quite aware that for many Christians - false science = any science that explodes your religious claims.

There is no science that explodes scripture.