ScottA and Tigger 2 discuss Who is God?

[Ally.s.j]

I already mentioned a private INBOX together...and as someone else said..
They could Blog it! If they don't want anyone else playing with their toys.

Email is an option too! lol

At this point, this is an open forum and Stranger has every right to post. Them are the rules.

We aint talking rules we are talking about adults inability to grant a brother his wish. Its opathetic and no amout of excueses makes it any better. It is what is is. really poor.

 

[Helen]

We aint talking rules we are talking about adults inability to grant a brother his wish. Its opathetic and no amout of excueses makes it any better. It is what is is. really poor.

I can hear what you are saying. But to be honest..I found that it could also be offensive for some to read .." We are going to eat ice-cream now, but you can't have any." Sounds like a child.
In my twelve years in forum life I have never before seen anyone post threads and then ask people NOT to post in them!
Be honest , have you?
I have never encountered this on a public forum before.

I am not being contentious, but just giving the other side of the coin...it has two sided.
If you don't want your 'little brother' tagging along too...then just don't play in the middle of the living room.
'nough said.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, if any want to join in on the Dialog that skypair and I are having on the Godhead you're much welcome. maybe Scott and Tigger 2 can discuss Who is God? on their own.

PCY

 

[tigger 2]

Okay...so according to what you have just said, there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit. Still, your only assertion that the Father is the only true God, is that Jesus referred to Him as the only true God, and that it is unclear that the Holy Spirit is the true God.

You see, I have just turned it around. Nonetheless, the words of Jesus would seem to support your supposition, but the lack of anything credible regarding the Holy Spirit leaves that one to a draw.

But now you have sighted other scriptures. I thought you were not going to do that. I did suggest we move on, and I am completely fine with it, but clearly things are unresolved here. What is it that you are looking for? Would you like scripture, documentation, or should we both make supposition?

Since you have already done so, I will make my own supposition:

"A tree is known by its fruit." While it is true that the case for Godship of the Son and the Holy Spirit is arguable, it is not without reason or even evidence: Jesus performed miracles and rattled off knowledge only God could produce. The Holy Spirit, likewise, all throughout the ages. But I prefer what He (God) has given me: personal, spiritual proof. Not that I could prove any of it to you, an atheist, or anyone for that matter. But the whole of the written word supports it as God's truth, because of the same manner of personal spiritual (as well as physical) witness testimony, which cannot be denied. So, if any of it is credible, then I have a case to be heard, whether received or not.

But back to the fruit. By the creation, if we can agree that it represents God's truth...it begins in the garden. By this we know that a son or a child are "of" their father, and a tree bearing fruit is even more, for the fruit is not just "of" the tree, but is a part thereof. And if we believe, we believe that the multitude of witness testimonies all come down to two family trees by two fathers: one flesh and one spirit. Yet to give voice to a fruit or a son, would he not praise the branches and the root, though they are One...just as the scriptures say?

Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.

My 'extra' scriptures were all about one thing which you brought up. Was I not supposed to reply to it?

ScottA: "You see, until Jesus referred to God as Father, God was simply God. In other words, what establishes God as Father, is the fact that He has a begotten Son."

God was known as Father at least as far back as Isaiah. And in the NT before the birth of Jesus.

So I still don't see an explanation for John 17:3 that reveals that anyone but the Father alone is the true God.

 

[Stranger]

Correct, we note that it is just the manifestation of the Son who came at the appointed time.

But the Son always existed with the Father as the Son. He didn't become the Son because He was begotten.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

No problem with the other verses.

So I still don't see an explanation for John 17:3 that reveals that anyone but the Father alone is the true God.

Here it is here:

I will make my own supposition:

"A tree is known by its fruit." While it is true that the case for Godship of the Son and the Holy Spirit is arguable, it is not without reason or even evidence: Jesus performed miracles and rattled off knowledge only God could produce. The Holy Spirit, likewise, all throughout the ages. But I prefer what He (God) has given me: personal, spiritual proof. Not that I could prove any of it to you, an atheist, or anyone for that matter. But the whole of the written word supports it as God's truth, because of the same manner of personal spiritual (as well as physical) witness testimony, which cannot be denied. So, if any of it is credible, then I have a case to be heard, whether received or not.

But back to the fruit. By the creation, if we can agree that it represents God's truth...it begins in the garden. By this we know that a son or a child are "of" their father, and a tree bearing fruit is even more, for the fruit is not just "of" the tree, but is a part thereof. And if we believe, we believe that the multitude of witness testimonies all come down to two family trees by two fathers: one flesh and one spirit. Yet to give voice to a fruit or a son, would he not praise the branches and the root, though they are One...just as the scriptures say?

Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.

So...John 17:3 which seems to indicate "You the only true God" is only referring to the Father, is not. But rather by the parable given in the creation of life "according to its own kind" as pertains to trees and men, it shows Jesus giving a voice to one of God's members which are otherwise One. Which, would sound silly, if it were not for the fact that scripture elaborates greatly on the Oneness of God, and how it is to even includes us...who have also been given a voice.

I would add, that if there is a problem with not being able to recognize the Oneness of God in Three persons, then there is also a problem including us - which goes against the greater thrust of the gospel. Therefore, we have no choice but to, rather than taking away the Son and the Holy Spirit from also being "alone God", to also be making way for us to be "alone God" as well. After all, we were left with a commission to press on.

To recap, it is therefore established, that:

1. God is One.
2. God has Members.
3. God has given His Members a voice.
4. God has fully intended to include His chosen [people] to His list of Members also.

 

[tigger 2]

I guess you don't believe Occam's Razor.

Since I don't believe scripture shows 2. above, I guess your turn now is to give a scripture which shows God has members (persons).

 

[ScottA]

I guess you don't believe Occam's Razor.

Since I don't believe scripture shows 2. above. I guess your turn now is to give a scripture which shows God has members (persons).

Ah, which will require climbing further out on the limb. Which should not be a problem...because that is where we are, where we come on the scene.

Romans 12:4
For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,

Romans 12:5
so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

1 Corinthians 12:12
[ Unity and Diversity in One Body ] For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:18
But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.

1 Corinthians 12:20
But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.

 

[tigger 2]

Ah, which will require climbing further out on the limb. Which should not be a problem...because that is where we are, where we come on the scene.

Romans 12:4
For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,

Romans 12:5
so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

1 Corinthians 12:12
[ Unity and Diversity in One Body ] For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:18
But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.

1 Corinthians 12:20
But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.

Body Of Christ - The Definition
The Body of Christ is a common, yet complex term used in the Christian faith. Some may initially think we are talking about the physical body of Christ, as in His human form on earth. But the term "Body of Christ" actually refers to the members of His church, throughout history. Who or what is the body of Christ? The body of Christ is the Church, made up of all those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Each Christian, then, is a part of the body of Christ.
....

There is organization to the body of Christ, as described in Ephesians 1:22-23, "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way." https://www.allaboutgod.com/body-of-christ.htm

 

[Ally.s.j]

I can hear what you are saying. But to be honest..I found that it could also be offensive to some to read .." We are going to eat ice-cream but you can't have any." Sounds like a child. In my twelve years in forum life I have never before seen anyone post threads and ask people NOT to post in them!
Be honest , have you?
I have never encountered this on a public forum before.

I am not being contentious, but just giving the other side of the coin...it has two sided.
If you don't want your 'little brother' tagging along too...then just don't play in the middle of the living room.
'nough said.

I have made request to the same effect. As I would like a discussion with out all the rabble that comes from people who dont know what there talking about. There are forums that have a section for 1v1 discussions. Its just for two adulkts to have and uninterupted discussion. Thy guy made a simple request. And a few in here refused him that right.

 

[ScottA]

Body Of Christ - The Definition
The Body of Christ is a common, yet complex term used in the Christian faith. Some may initially think we are talking about the physical body of Christ, as in His human form on earth. But the term "Body of Christ" actually refers to the members of His church, throughout history. Who or what is the body of Christ? The body of Christ is the Church, made up of all those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Each Christian, then, is a part of the body of Christ.
....

There is organization to the body of Christ, as described in Ephesians 1:22-23, "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way." https://www.allaboutgod.com/body-of-christ.htm

Yes...and yet I do not say so to concede, but to express my knowledge of what should be a coming around full-circle to recognize the parable of creation, the manifestation of the things of God. But if we are only capable of coming to this place as a halfway point and only converse on the level of men, then...as Jesus told His disciples, “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."

So, the question is, is the [subject] of the parable too convoluted compared to the [object] of the parable for the object camp to relate to...yet? To which, I must refer again to the words of Jesus, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?"

And if you cannot, then you have bitten off more than you can chew. ...Sorry - is that another parable?

But I do not jest. We are talking about the higher thoughts of God, and you are either tracking or not. Is it so hard to imagine that God has been perfectly honest to declare that "all things come in parables" to then explain that He has created an object parable that only eludes to the subject thereof - which is God? But this is not just me talking. Parables are His thing. Therefore...tell me any parable where the object is also the subject. But, according to this same manner of speaking, I tell you that things are not what they appear - and all you can do is point back to the components of the object of the parable, as if Mary had a little lamb, and it is not Jesus, but actually a baby sheep. Against such, who can speak of the complexities of God? Would you rather stick with the half truths favored by the world?

For this very reason, men have been counselled for the renewing of their mind. Yet, whether I quote the scriptures or not - none can fine error in what I have told you, though some may scream the typical accusations of heresy for their unbelief and lack of knowledge, just as did those who killed the prophets.

...Having said all that, I continue: Yes, the body of Christ is the church. But if you are able to extrapolate the [unfolding] of God, Son, and Holy Spirit...of Adam and all who are One with him in the fall...and Abraham and the sands upon the sea shore, and all who are "in Christ", knowing that there is only One born from above according to God...and are not able to reverse every extrapolation, to trace it all back to the One... Then, the momentum of the world still has its hold on you. Yet, I offer you the truth.

 

[tigger 2]

Goof Grief, Scott! Occam would go babbling into the wilderness with such complex verbiage.

...full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

Since this one is nearly incoherent, perhaps you could provide another proof of someone other than the Father (who is clearly called God scores of times) who is also clearly called God.

 

[ScottA]

Goof Grief, Scott! Occam would go babbling into the wilderness with such complex verbiage.

...full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

Since this one is nearly incoherent, perhaps you could provide another proof of someone other than the Father (who is clearly called God scores of times) who is also clearly called God.

I have just showed you the end from the beginning - the complete mystery of God, in a few paragraphs, in summary. But you are still in the middle and now have decided against adventure. Thus, the debate has no winner.

If it is a one word answer you seek...you have it.

God is God.

 

[ScottA]

But the Son always existed with the Father as the Son. He didn't become the Son because He was begotten.

Stranger

Yes, and there is a simpler way to understand the personages of God: "Let us make man in [our] image", "I and the Father are One", "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father", etc.. But the verse that is being debated, has its own more complex path of truth. He asked.

 

[Stranger]

Since this one is nearly incoherent, perhaps you could provide another proof of someone other than the Father (who is clearly called God scores of times) who is also clearly called God.

Jesus Christ is called God. (Luke 17:15-16) "And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks:..."

Jesus Christ is called God. (1 John 5:20) "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ; This is the true God, and eternal life.

Recognizing the Son as God doesn't mean the Father or the Holy Ghost is not God. Just like recognizing the Father as God does not mean the Son and the Holy Ghost are not God.

Thus (John 17:3) in no way excludes the Son or the Holy Spirit as God.

Stranger

 

[prashanthd]

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[tigger 2]

I have just showed you the end from the beginning - the complete mystery of God, in a few paragraphs, in summary. But you are still in the middle and now have decided against adventure. Thus, the debate has no winner.

If it is a one word answer you seek...you have it.

God is God.

I'm sorry we can't seem to exchange information, Scott. I think the problem is that you have your own hypothesis about God and/or the 'truth' revealed to you by others but not by scripture. You seem to rely on your hypothesis and 'explain' it in confusing language.

The reason I wanted to keep to a single scripture at a time was to avoid what always happens in other discussions. They degenerate into a flood of off-subject comments (some not so nice) and a flood of various 'proofs' which taken one at a time are worthy of discussion by themselves. I think you can see that starting here now.

I want to clearly establish from scripture alone who is God.

 

[ScottA]

I'm sorry we can't seem to exchange information, Scott. I think the problem is that you have your own hypothesis about God and/or the 'truth' revealed to you by others but not by scripture. You seem to rely on your hypothesis and 'explain' it in confusing language.

The reason I wanted to keep to a single scripture at a time was to avoid what always happens in other discussions. They degenerate into a flood of off-subject comments (some not so nice) and a flood of various 'proofs' which taken one at a time are worthy of discussion by themselves. I think you can see that starting here now.

I want to clearly establish from scripture alone who is God.

On the contrary, I have had no indoctrination of men, but God alone. Before I knew God I found myself in a downward spiral of failure I cannot claim: I was a victim of crime and of other forms of evil and eventual through a process of elimination began turning to and talking to a god I did not know but had only hear of by rumors. To my great surprise - He answered, and I was taken in the spirit above the earth and learned all that I know of Him except His word, which after returning me to the world, He directed me to. Even then, I did not step foot into a church for 7 years, but continued to read the bible over and over from start to finish, wherein His word confirmed my experience and my experience confirmed His word. It is by this alone that I know what I know as the truth. So, if it seems like tongues to you - perhaps it is.

Yes, I see the fragmentation. But, not with you or I, and I don't know that the others chiming in does not serve another purpose - actually, I believe it does. It perhaps keeps us all the more honest or reasonable, but also, it is a form of witnessing. The truth is worthy of gathering a crowd.

If you would like to continue, I am open to it.

 

[tigger 2]

I would like to continue, but since it appears that you are the source on your side of the debate, and I insist on Scripture alone, we cannot continue.

At least we exchanged ideas concerning 'worship' (shachah and proskuneo) and when the Father became the Father. That's something.

Thank you, Scott, for discussing with me.

 

[ScottA]

I would like to continue, but since it appears that you are the source on your side of the debate, and I insist on Scripture alone, we cannot continue.

At least we exchanged ideas concerning 'worship' (shachah and proskuneo) and when the Father became the Father. That's something.

Thank you, Scott, for discussing with me.

It is not that I cannot or do not use the scriptures, but rather that they are subject to the confounding placed upon all language by God at the tower of Babel. Thus, the difficulty in communication. Nonetheless, my source of truth and that of the scriptures is the same. But the scriptures must be interpreted spiritually.

So, if it is strictly a literary discussion, I will pass. But if it is a discussion of spiritual interpretation, I'm in. Please feel free to include me.

Thanks to you as well. I have enjoyed it, and you have been most sincere.