Scriptural proof that Jesus was NOT "fully God"

[Amazing Grace]

John 10:33 - the Jews accuse Jesus that he made himself God. Is this a theological statement? Were they right? Why don't we ask Jesus about it, for he replies to them. Not surprisingly you stopped quoting the passage before Jesus' reply.

John 10:
34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’ —and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am the son of God’?

Ops! The term "god" can refer to human superiors, as it is applied to Moses, the judges of Israel and even to Jewish kings. The term simply means "power". So Jesus is correcting them and says that not only that he did not even claim to be "god" (human superior), he simply claimed to be the "son of God" (a holy man of God).

For the rest of your quotes you need to read about the concept of the "shaliach", or "intermediary". Do your own homework, I will not answer every single bible verse.

A Typical Replacement Theologist. For those who do not know what that is, it is where Christians think the Church which is full of Gentiles has taken over from Israel which is God's Nation. We now have all the promises. Some even go as far as to think that no Jew today will ever get saved that their ability to become Christians is zero because they rejected Jesus and sent Him off to be crucified. Well how do you explain the Apostles and all the Jews that came to Christ and formed the Early Church and all the Messianic Jews of today?

If you think God has finished with the Jews than you are Ignorant of what is written about their situation and their future. Paul clarifies where the people of Israel stand before God today. Remember the Gospel is for the Jews and NOT JUST for Gentiles.

For those who are Saved Don't be conceited Israel is the Tree and you are the ingrafted branches. It is Israel that sustains us as Christians and not all the natural branches have been removed and don't you think God is not restoring Israel back to Himself. God is in the process of restoring Israel the Nation to Himself. Until the full number of the Gentiles comes into salvation they are blinded on purpose for rejecting God as a Nation. There are still individual Jews who come to salvation through Christ Jesus today. However Israel is God's nation and the promises God made to Israel as a Nation the following scriptures tells us are IRREVOCABLE.

GAL 2:6 As for those who seemed to be important--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance--those men added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews. 8 For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.

After Christ's death both Jews and Gentiles were evangelised. The Gospel is for all who would receive Christ. The Jews were not denied salvation and they still are coming to Christ today.

RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

RO 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

RO 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

RO 11:27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

RO 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

If you actuall knew and understood the Old Testament you would see the Jews or Hebrews living with Jesus in Jerusalem and living there in peace (no more will the nations surrounding the Jews attack her) and safety, worshiping the Lord.

First God will punish them for their rejection of the Messiah which we are seeing today. However as Paul says in Romans 9, 10 & 11 there is a remnant of Israel that he will restored.

RO 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace

The Pharisees and the Sanhedrein and the followers of these men could not see that Jesus was not just claiming to be God but that He was God. Because Jesus fulfilled the prophecies spoken of the Messiah by the scriptures and that He was able to perform the acts of God Himself upon this Earth.

What did Jesus say to those who wanted a sign for Him to prove he was who he said he was?

MT 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven.

MT 16:2 He replied, "When evening comes, you say, `It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, `Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

LK 11:29 As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30 For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. 32 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

These people has the scriptures and the ability to see that Jesus was sent from God and that Jesus was God Himself. Yet they did not want to see it.

No one could convince these men back then and I certainly cannot convince any one today. If Jesus Christ Himself came down from Heaven and demonstrated his Divinity for you it would probably not move you to believe. You have the scriptures and you can pray and ask for the answer. If you really want to know the answer you will receive it.

JN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

JN 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

JN 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

JN 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

JN 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16 From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

It is clear even in the days of Jesus on this Earth many did not believe Him then and no surprise you do not believe him today.

However for those of us who receive Him and believe in His Name we can become the children of God. You have to receive Christ and Believe in His Name.

PS 148:13 Let them praise the name of the LORD,
for his name alone is exalted;
his splendor is above the earth and the heavens.

PHP 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,

PHP 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

PHP 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

God's Name alone is exalted and we exalt the Name of Jesus because He is God!

 

[Angelina]

Hello Grace!

Hmmm...this post seems familiar...

[sup]16[/sup] For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. [sup]17[/sup] And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, [sup]18[/sup] do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
[sup]19[/sup] You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” [sup]20[/sup] Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. [sup]21[/sup] For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. [sup]22[/sup]

We have had this discussion before on another forum and I agree with you so far but not in relation to the olive tree. The branches are Israel and perhaps even the tree...but the root is God
The parable of the olive tree suggests that the natural branches are Israel, supported by the root, which is Holy. There is only one who is Holy and it is he who makes the branches holy.

You suggest that Israel sustains Christians...It is true that Salvation is of the Jews [John 4:21-24] however, it is God who sustains Christians and also Israel. This parable suggests also, that they can both be on that same tree together.

Ephesians 2
[sup]11[/sup] Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— [sup]12[/sup] that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [sup]13[/sup] But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Christ Our Peace
[sup]14[/sup] For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, [sup]15[/sup] having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, [sup]16[/sup] and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. [sup]17[/sup] And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. [sup]18[/sup] For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

I am just trying to clarify something here....we are not secondary citizens with Israel, we are one body in Christ


Blessings!!!

 

[Amazing Grace]

Hello Grace!

Hmmm...this post seems familiar...



We have had this discussion before on another forum and I agree with you so far but not in relation to the olive tree. The branches are Israel and perhaps even the tree...but the root is God
The parable of the olive tree suggests that the natural branches are Israel, supported by the root, which is Holy. There is only one who is Holy and it is he who makes the branches holy.

You suggest that Israel sustains Christians...It is true that Salvation is of the Jews [John 4:21-24] however, it is God who sustains Christians and also Israel. This parable suggests also, that they can both be on that same tree together.

Ephesians 2
[sup]11[/sup] Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— [sup]12[/sup] that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [sup]13[/sup] But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Christ Our Peace
[sup]14[/sup] For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, [sup]15[/sup] having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, [sup]16[/sup] and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. [sup]17[/sup] And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. [sup]18[/sup] For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.


Blessings!!!

I agree it is God who sustains the whole Universes and us along with all His creation. God is the Roots Not the Trunk

So Israel is the Tree becuase they are the natural branches they have to be the Tree.

Following this so far.

Where do you graft in another branch into a tree so it will grow as part of that TREE?

Into the Trunk of the Tree. The tree trunk that is Israel. Not the Roots which is God.

That is why Israel supports Christians.

It wasn't a super spiritual comment.

Remember we got the chance to receive salvation because Israel failed.

RO 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

RO 10:19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."

RO 10:20 And Isaiah boldly says,

"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

Hence, we got a chance to be part of the Tree that is Israel. Does that make sense to you now.

 

[Angelina]

Your quote

It is Israel that sustains us as Christians

Israel does not sustain Christian believers...he has made us one in Christ...

Ephesians 2
9 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Notice...this verse says fellow citizens

Galations 3
[sup]7[/sup] Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. [sup]8[/sup] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [sup]9[/sup] So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.


26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Does this make sense to you??? :huh:

Shalom!!!

 

[lawrance]

True Christianity is Israel.
Jews are just Jews. Goy are just Goy.
Anyone who becomes a Israel is on the same path as true Christianity the two are as one, it has nothing to do with race at all.

 

[th1b.taylor]

True Christianity is Israel.
Jews are just Jews. Goy are just Goy.
Anyone who becomes a Israel is on the same path as true Christianity the two are as one, it has nothing to do with race at all.

If your screen name is your name, this statement of yours is not only Anti-semantic but is one of the most unbiblical heresies i have ever heard a Jewish born Christian propose.

 

[veteran]

The name Israel has always been about God's Promised Salvation first given through Abraham (Galatians 3; Romans 4 & 9). God gave Jacob that new name of Israel to represent the Promise by Faith. God's promises to Israel go along with that main Promise by Faith, which is what Apostle Paul was teaching in Ephesians 2 about the Gentile believers becoming part of the "commonwealth of Israel". A commonwealth is made up of different peoples. Sounds like some here need to look up the definition of that name 'Israel', and go back to read more Old Testament history.

It's Dispensationalism of the 1800's that stressed separation of Gentile believers from Israelite believers, mainly in support of the false Pre-trib rapture theory.

 

[belantos]

The Pharisees and the Sanhedrein and the followers of these men could not see that Jesus was not just claiming to be God but that He was God. Because Jesus fulfilled the prophecies spoken of the Messiah by the scriptures and that He was able to perform the acts of God Himself upon this Earth.

What did Jesus say to those who wanted a sign for Him to prove he was who he said he was?



These people has the scriptures and the ability to see that Jesus was sent from God and that Jesus was God Himself. Yet they did not want to see it.

No one could convince these men back then and I certainly cannot convince any one today. If Jesus Christ Himself came down from Heaven and demonstrated his Divinity for you it would probably not move you to believe. You have the scriptures and you can pray and ask for the answer. If you really want to know the answer you will receive it.



It is clear even in the days of Jesus on this Earth many did not believe Him then and no surprise you do not believe him today.

However for those of us who receive Him and believe in His Name we can become the children of God. You have to receive Christ and Believe in His Name.

PS 148:13 Let them praise the name of the LORD,
for his name alone is exalted;
his splendor is above the earth and the heavens.

PHP 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,

PHP 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

PHP 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

God's Name alone is exalted and we exalt the Name of Jesus because He is God!

If only you understood the implications of what you wrote...

1. If Jesus is sent from God he cannot be God because the sender is greater than the sent one. God cannot be sent.

2. God exalted Jesus, which means he is not God, but the servant of God who did well and therefore God elevated him.

3. Every tongue confesses that Jesus is their human superior to the glory of God the Father - can't you see that God is clearly identified as the Father? You can never find the term "God the son" in the bible.

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus taught Thomas for years. Thomas knew who Jesus was/is.

John 20:28-29 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Note that Jesus would have severely rebuked Thomas if Thomas was wrong, and in fact Jesus goes on to say that Thomas was "BLESSED" for believing He is God.

 

[belantos]

Jesus taught Thomas for years. Thomas knew who Jesus was/is.

John 20:28-29 (ESV)
[sup]28 [/sup]Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” [sup]29 [/sup]Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Note that Jesus would have severely rebuked Thomas if Thomas was wrong, and in fact Jesus goes on to say that Thomas was "BLESSED" for believing He is God.

Quite typical trinitarian approach. Just keep shooting verses randomly. Why don't you deal with those I already addressed.

 

[Angelina]

1. If Jesus is sent from God he cannot be God because the sender is greater than the sent one. God cannot be sent.

Philippians 2
[sup]5[/sup] Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, [sup]6[/sup] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

2. God exalted Jesus, which means he is not God, but the servant of God who did well and therefore God elevated him.

[sup]7[/sup] but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. [sup]8[/sup] And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. [sup]9[/sup] Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, [sup]10[/sup] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, [sup]11[/sup] and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

3. Every tongue confesses that Jesus is their human superior to the glory of God the Father - can't you see that God is clearly identified as the Father? You can never find the term "God the son" in the bible.

What you do not seem to understand is that, Jesus is God [but not Father God]...he came down in the form of man. As a man. God [the Father ] said Acts 13:33. He learnt obedience as a Son and also fully human, so that we could be a merciful and faithful High Priest in service to God [the Father] [Hebrews 2:14-18]
He died on the cross for our sins and was exalted by God [the Father]

1 John 5 NKJV
[sup]19[/sup] We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
[sup]20[/sup] And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

NIV [sup]
19[/sup] We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. [sup]20[/sup] We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Amplified Bible
[sup]19[/sup]We know [positively] that we are of God, and the whole world [around us] is under the power of the evil one.
[sup]20[/sup]And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true--in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.


Hebrews 1 NKJV
[sup]8[/sup]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. [sup]9[/sup]Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

NIV
[sup]8[/sup] But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Amplified Bible
[sup]8[/sup]But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).


Blessings!!!

 

[Duckybill]

Quite typical trinitarian approach. Just keep shooting verses randomly. Why don't you deal with those I already addressed.

Regarding Thomas, do you understand the concept of the "schaliac"?

Why don't you "deal" with this one? You must believe that Thomas was very stupid or that Jesus was a VERY bad teacher.

Did anyone mention that Jesus was worshiped several times and He never rebuked anyone for doing so? That's because He is God, and to be worshiped.

 

[belantos]

Philippians 2
[sup]5[/sup] Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, [sup]6[/sup] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,



[/color][/b][sup]7[/sup] but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. [sup]8[/sup] And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. [sup]9[/sup] Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, [sup]10[/sup] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, [sup]11[/sup] and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



What you do not seem to understand is that, Jesus is God [but not Father God]...he came down in the form of man. As a man. God [the Father ] said Acts 13:33. He learnt obedience as a Son and also fully human, so that we could be a merciful and faithful High Priest in service to God [the Father] [Hebrews 2:14-18]
He died on the cross for our sins and was exalted by God [the Father]

1 John 5 NKJV
[sup]19[/sup] We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
[sup]20[/sup] And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

NIV [sup]
19[/sup] We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. [sup]20[/sup] We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Amplified Bible
[sup]19[/sup]We know [positively] that we are of God, and the whole world [around us] is under the power of the evil one.
[sup]20[/sup]And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true--in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.


Hebrews 1 NKJV
[sup]8[/sup]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. [sup]9[/sup]Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

NIV
[sup]8[/sup] But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Amplified Bible
[sup]8[/sup]But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).


Blessings!!!

Angelina, none of the verses you quoted talks about the deity of the Messiah. Let me deal with them:

Philip 2:5 - read it in the context. Paul tells the Philippians that they should be of the same mind as Jesus had. If the passage is about the incarnation of the second person of the trinity, you cannot possibly be of the same mind. As some trinitarian scholars point out the passage is not about the incarnation, but about Adamic Christology. The Greek terms "form" and "image" are synonymous and are used interchangeably in early literature. I also encourage you to look up modern translations that reflect a better understanding of the term translated as "robbery" in the KJV. This is the NRSV:

Philippians 2:
5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, [other modern translations: "grasped"]
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Adam was created in the image of God, but he considered equality with God as something to be exploited when he "grasped the fruit". He sought to elevate himself, but instead was cast down a downward path, but Jesus, though being the heir of the throne of David (and having been offered all the kingdoms of the world at his temptation) voluntarily took a low, subservient position, living faithfully to the point of death. Notice that God exalted him and gave him a name as a reward. So the passage plainly states he is not God. Quite the opposite of what you thought. We are asked to have the same mind as he had - faithfulness to death.

Onto the next passage:

1John 5:
18 We know that those who are born of God do not sin, but the one who was born of God protects them, and the evil one does not touch them.
19 We know that we are God’s children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

The true God is the one true God of Jesus Christ (John 17:3), who is the son of God, not "God the Son". Jesus "has come and has given us understanding so that we may know Him", who is the true God.

Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Ps 45, which was written to a righteous Jewish king. The term "god" can be used of a human superior.


Psalm 45:
7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore god, your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above your fellows.

God doesn't have a God, does He? The reference is to a human superior.

None of these passages are about the deity of the Messiah. There is not a single passage in the whole bible.

 

[belantos]

Why don't you "deal" with this one? You must believe that Thomas was very stupid or that Jesus was a VERY bad teacher.

Did anyone mention that Jesus was worshiped several times and He never rebuked anyone for doing so? That's because He is God, and to be worshiped.

Thomas is not making a theological statement about the deity of Jesus. He simply worships the God who raised him from the dead. Jesus is His "shaliach" (intermediary). And as such it is appropriate to worship God through him, just as in the past God spoke through angels and prophets and people worshipped God the same way.

 

[Duckybill]

Thomas is not making a theological statement about the deity of Jesus. He simply worships the God who raised him from the dead. Jesus is His "shaliach" (intermediary). And as such it is appropriate to worship God through him, just as in the past God spoke through angels and prophets and people worshipped God the same way.

Thomas called Jesus "My God". Get it right.

 

[th1b.taylor]

If only you understood the implications of what you wrote...

1. If Jesus is sent from God he cannot be God because the sender is greater than the sent one. God cannot be sent.

2. God exalted Jesus, which means he is not God, but the servant of God who did well and therefore God elevated him.

3. Every tongue confesses that Jesus is their human superior to the glory of God the Father - can't you see that God is clearly identified as the Father? You can never find the term "God the son" in the bible.

You have truely been filled to the brim with heretical teaching. The one thing that is illustrated from the passage, Let ¨us¨ make man in ¨our¨ image though the New Testament is that God is the One Triune God. Can I explain this to anyone? Certainly not, I am a Finite man and my LORD is the Infinite God and how could the finite ever be so cocky as to pretend to be able to define the Infinite Creator he, or she, has never even seen? The Bible is the Word of God, preserved by God through the use of the men He inspired to write as well as the men He inspired to translate and to preserve it. On this truth I stand and because of this truth I may never be able to explain the trinity but I can grasp it and hold it up for the world to see, for those that have eyes to see, and know that it is true because God, your Creator, said so!

 

[Angelina]

A transliteration of 1 John 1 5:20

oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou heekei kai
WE HAVE KNOWN BUT THAT THE SON OF THE GOD IS COME, AND
1492_5 1161 3754 3588 5207 3588 2316 2240 2532
dedwken heemin dianoian hina ginwskomen
HE HAS GIVEN TO US MENTAL PERCEPTION IN ORDER THAT WE ARE KNOWING
1325 1473_9 1271 2443 1097
ton aleethinon kai esmen en tw aleethinw en tw
THE TRUE (ONE); AND WE ARE IN THE TRUE (ONE), IN THE
3588 0228 2532 1510_3 1722 3588 0228 1722 3588
huiw autou ieesou christw houtos estin ho
SON OF HIM TO JESUS CHRIST. THIS (ONE) IS THE
5207 0846_3 2424 5547 3778 1510_2 3588
aleethinos theos kai zwee aiwnios
TRUE GOD AND LIFE EVERLASTING.
0228 2316 2532 2222 0166
Westcott & Hort Interlinear from “The Bible Students Library CD-ROM”

For someone who believes that we need to read verses in context, you certainly have not done this with Hebrews 1. :huh:

Psalm 45 is a Messianic Psalm which must be interpreted in the light of Hebrews 1:5-11, not the other way around.

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”

8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."

10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?

Also note verse 10
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

and also verse 13
"To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?

How many human Kings has God ever said this to?

Blessings!!!

 

[Duckybill]

Psalm 45 is a Messianic Psalm which must be interpreted in the light of Hebrews 1:5-11, not the other way around.

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

5 “You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”

8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."

10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?

Also note verse 10
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

and also verse 13
"To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?

How many human Kings has God ever said this to?

Blessings!!!

That is beautiful Angelina! God calling His Son God.

 

[Amazing Grace]

You all need to take a chill pill people.

Do the Branches hold up the Trunk of a Tree or the Other way around?

You are all a bit uptight here. Why don't you take the plank out of your eyes before you take a speck out of mine.

I explained to Angelina

I was simply talking physically. Physically Christians are igrafted into the TRUNK which is Isreal.

Paul doesn't say in that passage that God makes a new hybred tree from the two trees does he?

RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

RO 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

So the Christians were grafted into the Trunk of the Israelite Tree.

OK that is what I meant when I said Israel supports Christians. Because Christians were grafted into their Trunk. Probably wrong thing to say.

Now I made another separate observation and you can all howel me down over this. I said we would not have Christianity without Israel.

Neither Jew nor Gentile who are in the Christian Church today would not have Salvation or a Faith IF the Messiah did not come through the promises given to Israel. If Abraham and Sarah did not have Isaac and God did not form the line of Ancestory for Jesus how would we have a Saviour?

Today the Church owes it's very foundation which is Christ to Israel. Without Israel we would not have the Messiah.

This is a separate observatioon to the Trunk of a tree holding up branches.

Get over it people there was nothing more than that in it.

Israel is the Tree in Paul's analogy and Israel gave us a Messiah.

Honestly if you managed to make more than that from my post you need a break.

 

[Angelina]

...because dear Grace...

I have been down this road before. Firstly - Israel is the tree and we are supported by Israel, then it goes to - Since we are supported by Israel, we should be following the Torah...then to - we should as believers, be observing the feasts and keeping the sabbath days. That is why...


BTW God was going to destroy Israel in the Wilderness and send his promises through Moses

Numbers 14
[sup]12[/sup] I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them, but I will make you into a nation greater and stronger than they.”

but Moses interceded on their behalf [Numbers 14:15-19] [Deuteronomy 9:25-28]and the Lord relented concerning the total destruction of this great nation [Numbers 14:20-24]

Please note: God can fulfill his plan through any nation? Matthew 3 says:

[sup]9[/sup] and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. [sup]10[/sup] And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees.

but God had chosen Israel because of the promises he made to the Patriarchs...

Shalom!