aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Thanks for the feedback.
I am really trying to work on being as clear as possible - i appreciate your kind words
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SDA: Seventh Dilemma Adventism
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Thanks for the feedback.
I am really trying to work on being as clear as possible - i appreciate your kind words
Truth
Well-Known Member
I believe the words are of gratitude! I barely Graduated High School, I believe that I have fair comprehension skill's, but when people respond at collage Grad school terminology I tend to get lost, I recently stopped supporting a Ministry because of two reasons, one, it was always over my head! the other is of no importance here! The word should be Simple, and it should always be presented as simple as possible, even opinion's !
Philip James
Well-Known Member
The thing is a person never knows that they are being manipulated and driven by a religious spirit.. " And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of."
Being manipulated by them and giving yourself over to them is two different things ...pride is the trap-door to giving oneself over to. Then they use you and you are 'driven' by it. ( as we can see)
We were in a cult for a full decade, in the 70's. We were full of zeal...and plenty of pride too. After all "we had the truth."
Not until we came out could we look back and see the pitfalls.
I believe every step in our life is a learning curve, and God will show and teach us if we stay teachable and not too proud in believing that we already know it all.
The spirit of the prophet is under the prophets control.
Pax!
While some of their objections might be valid, others indicate theological liberalism. They have a problem with a literal interpretation of the creation account.
Seventh-day Adventists agree with many Catholic doctrines, including the Trinity, Christ’s divinity, the virgin birth, the atonement, a physical resurrection of the dead, and Christ’s Second Coming. They use a valid form of baptism. They believe in original sin and reject the Evangelical teaching that one can never lose one’s salvation no matter what one does (i.e., they correctly reject "once saved, always saved").
https://www.catholic.com/tract/seventh-day-adventismIII Corinthians
St Paul's 3rd Letter to the Corinthians
The Way Named Straight
Tarsus, Province of Syria
My Dear Corinthians:
I, Paul, by the will of God an Apostle, having written twice to you on several matters of great importance now find myself compelled to write a third time.
I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it any more.SHAPE UP!
Paul, by the grace of God, Apostle to the Gentiles
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Seventh-day Adventists agree with many Catholic doctrines, including the Trinity, Christ’s divinity, the virgin birth, the atonement, a physical resurrection of the dead, and Christ’s Second Coming. They use a valid form of baptism. They believe in original sin and reject the Evangelical teaching that one can never lose one’s salvation no matter what one does (i.e., they correctly reject "once saved, always saved").https://www.catholic.com/tract/seventh-day-adventism
III Corinthians
St Paul's 3rd Letter to the Corinthians
The Way Named Straight
Tarsus, Province of Syria
My Dear Corinthians:
I, Paul, by the will of God an Apostle, having written twice to you on several matters of great importance now find myself compelled to write a third time.
SHAPE UP!
Paul, by the grace of God, Apostle to the Gentiles
SDA believe in a Godhead, not the Trinity. They also believe the Pope is the antichrist and the Catholic Church is the Beast power
Proverbs 25:
21 If your enemies are hungry, give them bread to eat;
and if they are thirsty, give them water to drink;
22 for you will heap coals of fire on their heads,
and the Lord will reward you.
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Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
This applies equally well to the whole professing church both Catholic and Protestant alike all who remain in Great Babylon. In this time and age if one has not yet come to the realization of just what Great Babylon consist then they are either naive or ignorant.
“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.” (Rev 18:2)
All who make the claim of being true followers of the Lord, “his people” and yet fell to heed his words when he makes known the true condition of Great Babylon and warns them to “Come out of her my people” will surely reap what is to come (Rev 18:4).
“If any remonstrate: But, Lord, we have many precious friends in Babylon, and we are loath to leave them. It will be a great loss to us to leave them all and take a stand against them. Must we come out? Our friends will think us crazy! The Lord replies: "Come out of her," or "receive of her plagues."
You are not sharers of her sins until the time you see this. You may have been born in Babylon, but the Lord is not holding you responsible for what you did not understand. But the more you understand, the more responsibility you have. If, when you see what the Truth is and what the error is, and yet you still chose to remain in Babylon and support her by your presence, influence, money, service or etc. you will be very culpable. If you fail to come out of her when you hear the Lord's Voice, it will imply that you are not thoroughly loyal to Him.
You may be one of His children, but if you fail to obey the Lord through fear of earthly loss, fear of what your friends, family or fellow church members might think of you, it will prove that these things are more precious to you than His favor, and He will treat you as He treats the hypocrites: you will have a share in their experiences. If you are approving of the sins (errors, false teachings) of the spewed-out systems by upholding them and giving them your influence and support, you will surely be partakers of Babylon's plagues. This is a fair warning. We understand that it is the duty of every Christian to break every tender tie, if necessary, and to be loyal to God, to stand free from the error and sins of Babylon. The time of her judgment has come.”
You haven't addressed posts #1, 2 & 3 because they render your pontifications meaningless. They scare you. Your own top scholars are clamoring for updates in your "truths". If you refuse to listen to what they are saying, why should anyone listen to you? What did Jesus say about a house divided against itself?
The SDA is in a state of schism and your leaders are too stubborn to admit it. I am trying to follow our Lord's mandate to love our enemies; you are hungry and thirsty. You refuse to eat or drink. According to 17 May 2018 - SPECTRUM, an official SDA quarterly, you are an uneducated die-hard, out of touch with your own scholars.
SDA doctrine: thus sayeth the anti-Christ
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Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
Sorry my friend but you are sadly mistaken here, I am not a Second Day Adventist nor have I ever been. Nor do we Bible Students adhere to the teachings of our Adventist friends. Our insights on these matters are our own as gleamed from our own studies of the scriptures.
But just to be clear when speaking in regards to Catholicism or Protestantism we speak only of the systems or institutions themselves we are not in any way speaking of the individuals who are joined to these institutions accept so much as to warn them of their true condition. We do not judge individuals, we know well right that the vast majority have been blinded by the god of this world into believing that they must be joined to one or another of these great systems of error least they be lost.
Nevertheless we would be amiss in our duties as faithful stewards of the Lord's word if we did not warn the household of faith that the Lord has cast off Great Babylon (both Mother and daughters) and bids his people to Come out of her. (Rev 18:4)
As the Lord says, 'My sheep know my voice... and when I call them they come out.' John 10:3-5
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Two questions, Harvest:
1. If you're neither Catholic nor Protestant, and not SDA, how exactly do you define yourself?
2. Exactly when will this judgment manifest, and what form will it take?
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Helen
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And the thing is that self-righteous protestants who are so quick to point the finger at Catholic, don't take to heart that..God tells ALL us to " Come out of her = The religious system on babylon. All of us.
Let he that has ears to hear..hear.
Sorry for the mistaken identity. "our own studies of the Scriptures" means the scriptures according to "pope" Charles Russel Taze and "pope" J.F. Rutherford. Without the Church that gave us the Scriptures in the first place your "studies" are illogical and self defeating. That's why you are forced to invent your own history. To simplify matters, "Bible Students" or JW's are theological cousins to the heresiarch Arius, who was refuted at the Council of Nicae. To reject the councils of the Church is to reject the infallibility of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, the model of all future councils.
This thread is about the dilemma of the SDA's, you are off topic.
You make the Church hierarchy out to be a separate entity from the individuals that are in it. That is absurd. That's the same as me saying, "Oh, I love your Christian family even though your father is a satanist."
Your Babylon psychosis has been exposed repeatedly throughout this board. You shut it out because your mind doesn't belong to you.
"when I call them they come out", "bids his people to Come out of her" is in reference to the Jews to follow their fulfillment, it does not mean for Christians to abandon their churches and join a made-in-America cult.
Furthermore, the NWT is an adulterated bible with sneaky alterations that only a trained eye can detect. That's why I refuse to play scripture tennis with you.
If this is a deception according to "Bible Students"
then I shall be deceived.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
We are simply Bible Students, students of God’s word, non-denominational Christians.
As the Lord states “Judgement begins at the house of God.” (1 Pet 4:17)
When it states, that judgment begins with the “house of God”, we must understand that both the true house, and the false house have existed together for most of these many centuries but, only the true house has been under judgment sense its conception, It began with the Head of the “house of God,” with our Lord Jesus Christ, who was tempted (tried) in all points like as are we (Heb 2:18), but now as we have reached the end of the age the time has come to separate the true and the false Christian, the wheat and the tares in the nominal (professing) church.
As our Lord stated in Matt 13:30 “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”
As we have reached the end of the age, the harvest, it is time for the judgement (krima: Strong’s # 2917 the result of judging, the final decision) of the nominal professing Church, the organization, NOT the individual members, the individual members are only being judge so far as to separate the true, (the wheat), from the false, (the tares), the true are now coming to the “krima” decision for their part, but the false are only being judge as a system, this is not the time for their individual judgment, that will come later in the “appointed day”, for now judgment has come upon the system itself, “Babylon”.
This judgment against Great Babylon has already taken place, the “krima” or final decision has been rendered, and thus the sentence:
“Thou have been weighed in the balances, and have been found wanting…” (Dan 5:27)
“Behold, thy house is left unto you desolate.” (Matt 23:38)
(Compare Isa 8:14) The nominal Jewish house, the fleshly of the Jewish age and the nominal Christian house, the spiritual of the Gospel age stand related to each other as type to antitype.
“Babylon hath been (was) a golden cup in the Lord’s hand that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine (false teachings); therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen and will be destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reaches unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.” (Jer 51:7-9)
“…Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.” Rev 18: 2-4
“And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.” Rev 18:21
“And a mighty angel” (a messenger or agent of the Lord, i.e. any agency whether animate or inanimate which the Lord choses to use at the time) in this case the messenger is great earth quake or revolution which shall see the end of this age.
“took up a stone” (Tyre meaning “rock” a type of Babylon, the kingdom of Satan, Compare Ezek Chapter 26 and Isa Chapter 23).
“like a great millstone” (The world’s largest and oldest grinder of food for Christendom, Compare Matt 24:41; Rev 18:22)
“and cast it into the sea” (the restless or anarchist masses of humanity) during the great time of trouble.
“Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.” (With violence in the sea of anarchy her plagues will come, quickly “in one day”, a day or period of darkness and trouble, in “one hour”, Compare Rev 18:8, 17, and 19.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
No Bible Students are not a sect, a sect is a split off or splinter group, and we split off from nothing. Some have erroneously assumed that we are a splinter group of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, however they have this backwards, it’s the JW’s who are the sect, they split off from the Bible students adopting their own creed and beliefs. Our endeavor is to bring all of the people of God into heart-relationship and fellowship with the Lord and with each other.
We accept all as brothers who trust in the precious blood as their redemption price and who profess and evidence a full consecration to the Lord and his service. We bar no one from Christian fellowship along these lines, whatever may be his theories on outside and less essential subjects.
We are not a denomination either, for we accept no name but that of our Lord Jesus Christ. We are Christians, no more and no less. We accept all names given to the Church in the Scriptures, but have not taken one for ourselves as some Christian denominations have. Being called Bible Students does not imply this to be a denomination name as all Christians are (or should be) bible students, students of God’s word, both in word and in deed.
The true Church is not a denomination. Those of the early Church bore no denominational names, but were simply identified by their location, for example, “Unto the church of God which is at Corinth ...sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints...” (1 Cor. 1:2)
Yes the saints were any who had consecrated and sanctified (set apart) their lives to God.
Each individual has his relationship to the Lord, and because related to the Lord is related to all others similarly related, because the body of Christ is one. This, our union with the Lord, is the union of the Scriptures. (Denominations go against this principle, because they represent divisions in the body.
The True Church is not to be found amongst the various churches of Christendom, Babylon, Mother and daughters (although many of the Lord’s true children are still trapped there), but she resides apart or separate from these in the wilderness condition and refuses to recognize any sectarian bondage.
Now it may ask, ‘If we leave Babylon, where will we go, how do we locate the true people of God, the true Church?
Fear not, the Lord will lead you.
As the Apostle said the true saints of God are the fully consecrated, the sanctified in Christ Jesus, to locate these individuals it is simply a matter of finding their food source.
“For wheresoever the carcass (the truth, the food) is found, there the eagles (those keen of vision and appetite) will be gathered together (brought together by the mutual apprehension of the truth, as eagles are drawn to their food)” Matt 24:28
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
And your own studies of the scriptures means what? the scriptures according to … Pope Francis, or the Catholic catechism?
First of all Bible Students do not follow men, although we do recognize that the Lord has used men from time to time to lead and teach his people. Bible Students recognize Pastor Russell as one such individual, he was not infallible (unlike many of your former Popes), but simply a faithful and wise student of the word who faithfully fed to the household of faith their “meat in due season”. (Matt 24:45)
As for Judge Rutherford although he started out as a faithful Bible Student in the end he was found to be “beating his fellow servants” (Matt 24:49), and turned on the truth and all those associated with it replacing all the former teachings of the Pastor with his own and with those for whom he approved. And in 1931 (16 years after the death of Pastor Russell) in order to distinguish his new organization from the rest of the various Bible Students groups he adopted a new name for the organization, the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
The Church didn’t give us the scriptures, the Lord did, and we still follow those same scriptures today.
I don’t even know where you came up with convoluted idea, what history was invented? The history of the Bible Student movement is well documented.
Catholics and Protestants are theological cousins likewise so what’s your point?
The “Infallibility” (?) There’s no infallibility in any councils governed by men. Even during the time of the Apostles there was no infallibility, even the apostles themselves had to be corrected from time to time. The only one who is infallible is the Lord Himself that is with the exception of a few notable Popes who made such claims.
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
A little history for those not so acquainted.
The views that prevailed at Nicaea (A.D. 324–325) are embodied in the Nicene Creed, a strictly Trinitarian statement. At the synod the Trinitarians believed Christ’s generation was from eternity, so that he was co-equal—i.e., co-eternal with the Father— whereas the Arians believed he had a beginning. The Trinitarians claimed the Son was derived of and from the Father, being of the same identical essence and not merely of similar essence, as the Arians thought. The Arians held that the Son was created by the power of God, out of nothing, and that he was the first created being ever. (20) The Council of Nicaea defined the Godhead (?) as the absolute unity of the divine essence and the absolute equality of the three persons.
By no means did Arius intend to lower the dignity of Christ by ascribing to him a beginning of existence. Indeed Arius attributed to him the greatest dignity that a being could have after God, without entirely ignoring the distinction between that being and God. Yet Athanasius, the leading spokesman for the Trinitarian view and perhaps Arius’s bitterest contemporary opponent, vilified him in different works with such statements as “Arius the atheist,” “He vomits forth the poison of impiety,” “Arius the serpent that deceived Eve,” and so forth. In view of these slanders, Cardinal Newman’s observation is interesting:
“. . . [that] the language of the Ante-Nicaea Fathers on the subject of our Lord’s Divinity, may be far more accommodated to the Aryan [sic] hypothesis than can the language of the Post Nicene, is agreed on all hands.” (21)
In the doctrinal dispute between Arius and Athanasius on the nature of Jesus and his relationship to the Father, it was the emperor Constantine who presided at the Council of Nicaea and decided in favor of Athanasius and the doctrine of the Trinity.
Although Constantine subsequently vacillated back and forth for a time, he ultimately rejected Arius and his views. Thus it was Constantine, a supposed convert to Christianity, who made a decision that has had a profound effect upon Christianity down through the age to the present. However, his deeds negated his claim to be a Christian so that, in fact, it was a worldly man who predominated at a council that decided a spiritual matter of great importance (Matt. 7:15–20).
Mosheim says that “Constantine’s life was not such as the precepts of Christianity required.”(22) “The same year of his reign in which he convened the Council of Nice was polluted by the execution of his eldest son.”(23) He put to death his wife Fausta on a groundless suspicion; he cut off his brother-in-law Licinius and the unoffending eleven-year-old son of Licinius contrary to his plighted word. Moreover, the three sons who succeeded Constantine were sired of an adulterous woman. And Gibbon states that he degenerated “into a cruel and dissolute monarch, corrupted by his fortune, or raised by conquest above the necessity of dissimulation. . . . The old age of Constantine was disgraced by the . . . vices of rapaciousness and prodigality. . . . Though he still retained the obedience, [he] gradually lost the esteem of his subjects.” (24)
In view of the foregoing facts, it is ironic that Catholicism, and to a large extent Protestantism, have venerated the memory of Constantine, of whom it is said, “The gratitude of the Church has exalted the virtues and excused the failings of a generous patron who seated Christianity on the throne of the Roman World.” (25) The Greek Orthodox Church has even canonized him, adoring the memory of “Saint” (?) Constantine.
When Arius died suddenly at Constantinople in the year 336 under “strange and horrid circumstances”—in all likelihood he was poisoned by a conspiracy of his enemies— his opponents rejoiced. (26, 27) And thus the voice of this archenemy of orthodoxy was silenced.” (The Keys of Revelation, Pages 43, 44)
Thus we have the testimony of history, but what has the Lord to say about Arius?
“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos (meaning “earthly elevation”, the period in which the Papal system had its rise) write,
‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is (Pagan Rome, later rechristened Papal Rome). And you hold fast to my name, and did not deny my faith even in the days in which Antipas (Arius) was my faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.” (Rev 2:12, 13)
Antipas: Anti, against, papas, an earthly head; the pope: one who protests against the pope).
........................................................................................................................................
20. When the aged Arius rose to speak in his own defense at the synod, he was struck in the face by one named Nicholas. Others soon ran out, thrusting their fingers into their ears in simulated horror at the old man’s supposed heresies.
21. John Henry Cardinal Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (London: Longmans, Green, and Co., 1885), p. 135.
22. Dudley, History of the First Council of Nicea, p. 26.
23. Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire,Vol. 1, p. 258.
24. Ibid., p. 225.
25. Ibid., p. 258.
26. Ibid., p. 274.
27. Dudley, History of the First Council of Nicea, p. 86 footnote.
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Do you not see the contradiction in these two statements?
Peace!
Harvest 1874
Well-Known Member
No this is something the Catholic Church does (along with many other denominations) when it makes a distinction between the clergy and the lay persons, the congregation, addressing the clergy as Reverends, Fathers and etc. Bible Students hold as the Lord so taught, "Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." (Matt. 23:8, 9)
The distinction we were attempting to make here was between the system (the institution or organization, whether it be the Catholic Church or any of the various Protestant denominations) and the individuals who attend it. Yes in truth the body is in reality the Church, not the building or the organization, but unfortunately that generally slips the minds of most believers and they too often associate the system or organization as the Church which they in turn are attendants.
Exposed by whom? The Catholic Church, there is no bigger denier of whom Great Babylon Mother of Harlots truly represents then the Catholic Church, just as they are in similar denial of being the apostate church, the Antichrist. Nevertheless denial doesn’t change facts.
Once again we refer to the system not to individual Catholics.
‘In reference to the Jews to follow their fulfillment’, fulfillment of what? Where do you come up with this dribble? Oh wait that’s right it says so in the catechism.
The NWT where did this come from, I’m not using the NWT, I’m using the NKJV. As for the so-called “sneaky alterations” which you allude to in the NWT, I believe it’s called a further work and clarification of the original Hebrew and Greek texts based on the more recent availability and access to more MSS than what was available when the Authorize Version of the King James Bible was first translated, at the time they had only access to 8 MSS none of which was earlier than the tenth century.