Seeing is Believing

[marks]

I understand what you're saying, yet I feel there is so much more. God is transforming us to Christ, that is not an easy transformation. It is so much more than mental ascent, we must die to our flesh. Jesus was made perfect in what? Suffering. We are made perfect - how? In suffering, he is the First Fruit.

Have you never been disciplined by the Lord?

Hebrews 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.

Training as one trains a child. The love of a Perfect Father!

We are born from God righteous and holy, but oh how the mind must be renewed! We are so used to thinking the old way, sometimes very dramatic means must be used.

There's a place in Daniel, something like, "when he shall have shattered the strength of the holy ones . . .", the next thought is, for when I am weak then I am strong in the strength of Christ.

When we are desparate for comfort, for care, we discover the love of our Father. Suffering peels away the corruptions of the flesh. Suffering shows us more clearly the flesh, and the world, and the Spirit, and our new spirit.

He who has suffered has ceased from sin. If we cannot learn in other ways we can learn by suffering. So effective is it, we can rejoice in our afflictions, because He disciplines us - for our good.

Suffering (2 Cor 4) allows Christ's life which is inside of us to be seen on the outside, through the transformation of our behavior, as we learn the control over the flesh which Jesus gives to us.

There are many obstacles, weights we carry, sins we tend to get tangled up in, suffering forces us to trust Him, and so we learn to trust Him. And in trusting Him more, we stand better in His grace. And so the flesh decreases, and He increases. And Christ is formed within us, as we are transformed by the renewing of our minds, according the the knowledge of our Faithful Creator.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There really is an 'easy' road, but it lies in laying our cares on Jesus every time we have cares. This is an overcoming process. Only by the Holy Spirit are we able to become overcomers. We work on it leaning on and surrendering to Him and He wins the battles.

Exactly! Everytime we have cares of any kind, bring them to Jesus, knowing His power and love.

Much love!

 

[marks]

A man cannot correctly lead himself to a closer walk with God.

Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. If you want Him in your heart He sees this, and this pleases Him. Resist the devil and he will flee from you, and that leaves you with your flesh, and that was defeated at the cross.

God makes His Way easy, any can find it.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

You have no idea what you are talking about.
You just like to hear yourself talk.

Here is the reality..

Jesus has your sin, or you have them.
You've decided that you do.
And i understand why you are deceived about this situation.

I seem to remember a verse saying we should not sin, but if we do, we have an advocate. So, obviously sinning is possible for a believer.

 

[marks]

.

I seem to remember a verse saying we should not sin, but if we do, we have an advocate. So, obviously sinning is possible for a believer.

Hi Renniks,

I don't think that's the point @Behold is focusing on here.

Sin is in the old man, born from Adam. If we are born again we are the new man, born from God. If we act and think as if we are guilty for that sin, then this will tend to lead us into more sin, because it puts on the old man. We are responsible, and we will be judged as those who are not under law, but are under the law of liberty. We can do whatever we want, is THAT what you want to do?? And so we'll receive the good AND the bad that we do, but we will not be under any condemnation.

Putting on the new man is to put on the man who was created in God's pattern, in righteousness and true holiness. I am righteous in Christ. Being in Christ, I am a new creature, born of God, sharing His nature. The old man is born from Adam and shares his nature.

Perhaps an example would be the son who drives his car way to fast and goes to jail, but then he's adopted into a family who lives on an island with no traffic laws. But the son still drives his car way too fast so Daddy takes it away and gives him a slower car.

What sense would it then make for the son to report to the jail on the mainland to do his 30 days?

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

If we act and think as if we are guilty for that sin, then this will tend to lead us into more sin, because it puts on the old man. We are responsible, and we will be judged as those who are not under law, but are under the law of liberty. We can do whatever we want, is THAT what you want to do?? A

Sometimes it is what I want to do, if I'm honest. If I sin, and I don't confess that known sin, my guilt is ever before me, as David said. I understand that I'm not under law, thank God. But I also don't see how I can pretend my sin doesn't matter and become closer to God.

 

[marks]

Sometimes it is what I want to do, if I'm honest. If I sin, and I don't confess that known sin, my guilt is ever before me, as David said. I understand that I'm not under law, thank God. But I also don't see how I can pretend my sin doesn't matter and become closer to God.

I'm not saying pretend sins don't matter, but we should see them in us as God sees sin in us.

We think of sin crimes against God and man, and it is, except that we aren't under the law anymore, just like the guy who moves to an island without any traffic laws.

But sin is like eating moldy maggoty rotting meat as if it were a nourishing meal. To the flesh, that's what it is. But then what is the flesh but a moldy maggoty rotting piece of meat anyway? That's what it lives on! Sin for the sinner!! Hungry for the feast!!

So then God wants to teach us to live that clean and pure and golden life in the Son consuming His feast. Consuming Him. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

It used to be that your sins separated you from God, now nothing can separate you from God. Why? Because God "pretends" we're not guilty?

It's all different now, no law, no guilt, only life and death, and God trains us in the way of life, so we don't just keep on living as if we were dead. Live as those who are alive from among the dead. Because that's what we are.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

I'm not saying pretend sins don't matter, but we should see them in us as God sees sin in us.

We think of sin crimes against God and man, and it is, except that we aren't under the law anymore, just like the guy who moves to an island without any traffic laws.

But sin is like eating moldy maggoty rotting meat as if it were a nourishing meal. To the flesh, that's what it is. But then what is the flesh but a moldy maggoty rotting piece of meat anyway? That's what it lives on! Sin for the sinner!! Hungry for the feast!!

So then God wants to teach us to live that clean and pure and golden life in the Son consuming His feast. Consuming Him. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

It used to be that your sins separated you from God, now nothing can separate you from God. Why? Because God "pretends" we're not guilty?

It's all different now, no law, no guilt, only life and death, and God trains us in the way of life, so we don't just keep on living as if we were dead. Live as those who are alive from among the dead. Because that's what we are.

Much love!

Thanks for the encouragement. I know my problem is that i often do not feel like I am who God says I am. If I'm sometimes still attracted to sin, how can I be declared righteous? There's a difference between knowing my identity and experiencing the truth of it sometimes.

 

[justbyfaith]

I understand.

When I struggle with sin, that's exactly what I do, I struggle, and frequently lose. But what is the alternative? Look away, and look to Jesus. And don't be thinking that if I DO succumb temptation that this somehow means I'm not saved, or God is looking away from me!

When we realize the truth of grace and justification, then we can know that God is with us to help us even as we are currently choosing to sin, and that we can in our next breath simply reset our minds on Him, and in this is the power to end that sin immediately.

You don't have to fight against sin, so long as you are trusting Jesus for your deliverance. God is not weak, and He is not unwilling, but we lack faith that He has actually freed us from our sin.

And focusing on the fight against sin is sure to keep us in it. But Romans 5 declares that by faith in Jesus we have access into the faith in which we stand.

So it's by faith an not be fight. So stop fighting and start trusting. And if you aren't very good at it at first don't worry, you'll get better.

Once you see the power available through faith, well, in me, I've come to realize that there is one thing I need to do at any time, and for me, it looks like . . .

God is here.
He loves me.
He created me because He wants me.
He has recreated me because He wants me.
I'm His child and nothing will ever change that.
Because that's what He wanted all along!

By the time I finish reminding myself of some basic truths, the moment is past, joy is present.

Be it to you according to your faith. Build your faith in Jesus strong! Rely fully on Him and not on your own ability.

Much love!

If they don't, that's the signal that our faith is weak, and we need more of the Word to increase that faith.

Mar 9:14, And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them, and the scribes questioning with them.
Mar 9:15, And straightway all the people, when they beheld him, were greatly amazed, and running to him saluted him.
Mar 9:16, And he asked the scribes, What question ye with them?
Mar 9:17, And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
Mar 9:18, And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
Mar 9:19, He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
Mar 9:20, And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
Mar 9:21, And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
Mar 9:22, And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
Mar 9:23, Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
Mar 9:24, And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Mar 9:25, When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
Mar 9:26, And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
Mar 9:27, But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
Mar 9:28, And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
Mar 9:29, And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

It is so much more than mental ascent,

I think you mean assent.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thanks for the encouragement. I know my problem is that i often do not feel like I am who God says I am. If I'm sometimes still attracted to sin, how can I be declared righteous? There's a difference between knowing my identity and experiencing the truth of it sometimes.

God declares you righteous even though and when you are ungodly (Romans 4:5).

Now go and live like your new identity (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

 

[marks]

Thanks for the encouragement. I know my problem is that i often do not feel like I am who God says I am. If I'm sometimes still attracted to sin, how can I be declared righteous? There's a difference between knowing my identity and experiencing the truth of it sometimes.

Hi Renniks,

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The old man is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts. Elsewhere we see those lusts named, the lusts, or desires of the flesh.

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Galatians 5:16

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Galatians 5:17

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1 Peter 2:11
Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

1 Peter 4:2
That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

If I'm sometimes still attracted to sin, how can I be declared righteous?

I think what we see in Scripture is that the new creation is not in fact attracted by sin, and is rather repelled by it.

The new creation is patterned after God, sharing His nature of righteousness and holiness.
The old creation is from Adam, and shares his nature of corruption and death.

. . . it is therefore no longer I that sin, but sin that lives in my. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good lives.

Therefore . . .

The part of me that wants to sin is the old man. The new man loves righteousness. So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the body the Law of Sin. The new man loves God's ways, while the adamic man loves sin and death.

So when I feel the attraction of sin, that's a feeling that comes from the old man. And the deception?

. . . the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;



The old man is the one who is being corrupted by seductive desires.

We can feel the passions and desires common to man, and think, I still have these wicked desires! Or we can feel these things, and recognize the flesh still has it's desires.

In the one case, we believe that we are still defective, and therefore prone to sin. In the other case, we believe we have been completely dissociated from that man of sin, and now have the power of Christ over him.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

What I get out of his posts is that we don't struggle with sin, we are sinless without a fight, there is no growth,.

You are not really studying my posts or Threads, carefully, if you are speaking about me.

I teach Pauline Theology. So, if you can't relate to my Threads, then you are not reading Ephesians, Colossians, Galatians, Titus, Tim 1-2, Philippians, or Romans.
Most heretics live in Matthew, Hebrews, and James.
Do you?

So, your issue seems to be, that you are trying to make yourself acceptable to God by self effort, and that is how you perceive "growth".
But that is exactly NOT Growth.. That is actually keeping yourself in the baby christian "confessing and repenting" diapers experience, that never comes into the mind of Christ, by walking in the Spirit.

 

[Behold]

Hi Behold,

I think that the reason we will not be charged for any sin is because

The reason you wont be Judged for your sin after you die, or after you are Raptured, is because Jesus has already been judged for them all on The Cross, on earth.
God can't double charge judgment.
So, if you are born again, the judgement do YOU for your sin, that would have been administered to you @ Revelation 20:11, has already been dealt with by Jesus on the Cross.

 

[Behold]

I seem to remember a verse saying we should not sin, but if we do, we have an advocate. So, obviously sinning is possible for a believer.

If you witness to someone you can tell them many things...
You can tell them that God came here to die on a Cross for their sin.
You can tell them that Jesus is alive and makes intercession for the born again, once they become so....He is their advocate, but until they are born again, his advocacy is not available to them..

If you read Romans 4:8, you'll learn something about how God deals with sin, that is a question you have.

If you are going to explain why there is no sin "in Christ", then you have to understand what being "in Christ" actually means, Renniks.
You are trying to play "gotcha" with a NT verse that you dont understand, so, dont do that. Use some wisdom and learn from someone that can teach you.
Listen, are you born again?
Im not taking about taking a sacrament or being dunked in a pool.
Im talking about being BORN AGAIN into the Spirit of God.
If you are...then your born again spirit man, is spiritually circumcised from your "dead man", the dead one that died as sin on the Cross when Jesus became your sin.
Paul said "reckon yourself DEAD".
That means you, renniks.
So, read that again, and until you understand this, you'll not be able to understand anything about "sin" or where it is, or how all this is removed when you are "no longer under the law, but under Grace".

 

[marks]

Most heretics live in Matthew, Hebrews, and James.

These books teach us the same things though. But we need to read everything in context.

Much love!

 

[Agios]

You are not really studying my posts or Threads, carefully, if you are speaking about me.

I teach Pauline Theology. So, if you can't relate to my Threads, then you are not reading Ephesians, Colossians, Galatians, Titus, Tim 1-2, Philippians, or Romans.
Most heretics live in Matthew, Hebrews, and James.
Do you?

So, your issue seems to be, that you are trying to make yourself acceptable to God by self effort, and that is how you perceive "growth".
But that is exactly NOT Growth.. That is actually keeping yourself in the baby christian "confessing and repenting" diapers experience, that never comes into the mind of Christ, by walking in the Spirit.

This is as bad as a dispensationalist. lol

Cut and piece together theology, until you are willing to look at the entire New Testament as one entity, there is nothing to discuss with you. You've made a mess out of God's Word.

 

[Agios]

These books teach us the same things though. But we need to read everything in context.

Much love!

All scripture together, God has shown us His Truth. Part them, dissect them and you get a made up theology straight from a man's mouth. lol

 

[Behold]

.

Hi Renniks,

I don't think that's the point @Behold is focusing on here.

Sin is in the old man, born from Adam. If we are born again we are the new man, born from God. If we act and think as if we are guilty for that sin, then this will tend to lead us into more sin, because it puts on the old man. We are responsible, and we will be judged as those who are not under law, but are under the law of liberty. We can do whatever we want, is THAT what you want to do?? And so we'll receive the good AND the bad that we do, but we will not be under any condemnation.

Putting on the new man is to put on the man who was created in God's pattern, in righteousness and true holiness. I am righteous in Christ. Being in Christ, I am a new creature, born of God, sharing His nature. The old man is born from Adam and shares his nature.

Perhaps an example would be the son who drives his car way to fast and goes to jail, but then he's adopted into a family who lives on an island with no traffic laws. But the son still drives his car way too fast so Daddy takes it away and gives him a slower car.

What sense would it then make for the son to report to the jail on the mainland to do his 30 days?

Much love!

 

[Behold]

.

Hi Renniks,

I don't think that's the point @Behold is focusing on here.

Sin is in the old man, born from Adam. If we are born again we are the new man, born from God. If we act and think as if we are guilty for that sin, then this will tend to lead us into more sin, because it puts on the old man. We are responsible, and we will be judged as those who are not under law, but are under the law of liberty. We can do whatever we want, is THAT what you want to do?? And so we'll receive the good AND the bad that we do, but we will not be under any condemnation.

Putting on the new man is to put on the man who was created in God's pattern, in righteousness and true holiness. I am righteous in Christ. Being in Christ, I am a new creature, born of God, sharing His nature. The old man is born from Adam and shares his nature.

Perhaps an example would be the son who drives his car way to fast and goes to jail, but then he's adopted into a family who lives on an island with no traffic laws. But the son still drives his car way too fast so Daddy takes it away and gives him a slower car.

What sense would it then make for the son to report to the jail on the mainland to do his 30 days?

Much love!

Here :

Give it up.

 

[Renniks]

If you witness to someone you can tell them many things...
You can tell them that God came here to die on a Cross for their sin.
You can tell them that Jesus is alive and makes intercession for the born again, once they become so....He is their advocate, but until they are born again, his advocacy is not available to them..

If you read Romans 4:8, you'll learn something about how God deals with sin, that is a question you have.

If you are going to explain why there is no sin "in Christ", then you have to understand what being "in Christ" actually means, Renniks.
You are trying to play "gotcha" with a NT verse that you dont understand, so, dont do that. Use some wisdom and learn from someone that can teach you.
Listen, are you born again?
Im not taking about taking a sacrament or being dunked in a pool.
Im talking about being BORN AGAIN into the Spirit of God.
If you are...then your born again spirit man, is spiritually circumcised from your "dead man", the dead one that died as sin on the Cross when Jesus became your sin.
Paul said "reckon yourself DEAD".
That means you, renniks.
So, read that again, and until you understand this, you'll not be able to understand anything about "sin" or where it is, or how all this is removed when you are "no longer under the law, but under Grace".

Oh I understand
But understanding and doing are two different things. That's why Paul said what I don't want to do, that I do...