Shadows and Realities

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gadar perets

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Joseph for one...was a shadow and type of Christ...raised to the Throne...fed the nations when starving ...provided for his brethren etc etc....

Boaz too , a type of the Redeemer....
They were both types, not shadows. A type is a person or thing symbolizing or exemplifying the ideal or defining characteristics of something. It looks forward to someone or something in the future. For example, many aspects of Joseph's life characterized or were parallels to Yeshua's life.

A shadow is a vague image of some realty in the future. The shadow is cast backwards in time by the reality. For example, the Israelites were sacrificing Passover lambs which were shadows that were being cast back in time by the reality, Yeshua, the true Passover Lamb. The shadow emanates from the reality, not vice versa.
 

Nancy

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That is only because God allowed the temple and the Levitical priesthood to remain operational until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Hebrews was written in the early 60s. So accurately what Paul said was prophetic.

But the veil of the temple was supernaturally torn in two on the day of crucifixion, which meant that the priests and the Levites should have rent their garments and sat down in sackcloth and ashes and turned to Christ immediately.

Awesome post Enoch.
 
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BreadOfLife

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In your other post you said Passover lambs needed to continue to be sacrificed until the reality came. Are you now believing differently? Of course it needs to be practiced. Otherwise, what was the purpose of the shadow? The shadow points to the reality to come in a person's future. The Feast of Trumpets, for example, has a future reality. When we keep/practice the shadow we are proclaiming the reality to come. If you believe it points to Yeshua's second coming, then by keeping that feast you are proclaiming Yeshua's second coming.
Why would you make this claim?? When did I EVER say that lambs should STILL be sacrificed??
If you want to have a charitable conversation - then TRY to be honest for a change . . .
Then why keep nine of the ten commandments? Aren't they part of the "OLD Law"? Why keep the two greatest commandments which are part of that "OLD Law"? The fact is, that "OLD Law" called "Torah" is to be written on hearts and minds under the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33). Torah includes the Feasts, dietary laws, and Sabbaths.
WHY love God and WHY love your neighbor as yourself??
WHY ask this question when Jesus commannds it of us??

The Commandments are much more than simply "part" of the Old Law.
They are the MORAL Law - and that never ends.
Luke 24:27 And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
There are many things about Yeshua in the OT, but it is NOT all about him. For example, the two wave loaves in Leviticus 23:17 do not represent Yeshua since they are baked with leaven. They are fulfilled by the 144,000 who are the "firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev 14:4).
Jesus IS the Word of God (John 1:1) - He's not just PART of it.
If He was just "part" of it - then He would be less than God.
 

gadar perets

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Why would you make this claim?? When did I EVER say that lambs should STILL be sacrificed??
I never said that you said lambs should still be sacrificed. I asked in an earlier post, "Could sacrificing a Passover lamb each year cease even though the true Passover Lamb, Yeshua, had not come yet?" You answered, "No". In other words, you said sacrificing lambs could not cease until the true Passover Lamb came. Since You believe Yeshua was the true Passover Lamb, then sacrificing lambs ceased.

If you want to have a charitable conversation - then TRY to be honest for a change . . .
For a change?? When I have I been anything but honest? I can't help it if you twist my words. If anyone was dishonest it was you. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just misread my posts and were not being dishonest. And I will forgive you for accusing me of being dishonest.

love God and WHY love your neighbor as yourself??
WHY ask this question when Jesus commannds it of us??
I asked it because you said we are not under the "OLD Law". If not, why do you keep some "OLD" laws?? Yes, Yeshua commands us to obey those "OLD" laws.

The Commandments are much more than simply "part" of the Old Law.
They are the MORAL Law - and that never ends.

You are absolutely correct. And the holy Sabbath Day is among those moral laws. It is totally immoral to rob someone or an animal of their Sabbath rest by causing them to work on the 7th day.

Jesus IS the Word of God (John 1:1) - He's not just PART of it.
If He was just "part" of it - then He would be less than God.
"The word of God" in John 1:1 is not a reference to Scripture, but to YHWH's spoken words and thoughts before the word was made flesh. The same words and thoughts that created all things.

Yes, Yeshua is less than God if, by "God", you mean the only true God (Yeshua's Father YHWH - John 17:3). The reason Yeshua has a God and that his God is YHWH is because YHWH is greater than Yeshua. If you disagree with this last paragraph, feel free to PM me so as not to derail this thread.
 

Enoch111

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Yes, Yeshua is less than God if, by "God", you mean the only true God (Yeshua's Father YHWH - John 17:3).
If you believe that Jesus is less than God, then all your Sabbath-keeping will be of no avail. You will die in your sins.

And don't take an isolated Scripture and make a doctrine out of it.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Jn 17:3)

What is this verse teaching? That you cannot segregate the only true God from Jesus Christ. Hence the "and". So now let's put this in perspective. If the only true God is the Father (which is true) then the Father cannot be segregated from the Son and the Holy Spirit, who constitute the one true God.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Mt 28:19).
 

BreadOfLife

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I never said that you said lambs should still be sacrificed. I asked in an earlier post, "Could sacrificing a Passover lamb each year cease even though the true Passover Lamb, Yeshua, had not come yet?" You answered, "No". In other words, you said sacrificing lambs could not cease until the true Passover Lamb came. Since You believe Yeshua was the true Passover Lamb, then sacrificing lambs ceased.

For a change?? When I have I been anything but honest? I can't help it if you twist my words. If anyone was dishonest it was you. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just misread my posts and were not being dishonest. And I will forgive you for accusing me of being dishonest.
My mistake then.
It appeared as thought you were stating something that I didn't say/
I asked it because you said we are not under the "OLD Law". If not, why do you keep some "OLD" laws?? Yes, Yeshua commands us to obey those "OLD" laws.
If you consider the Commandments as "Old Law" - then you are mistaken.
They transcend the Old and New Covenants because they are the MORAL Law.
You are absolutely correct. And the holy Sabbath Day is among those moral laws. It is totally immoral to rob someone or an animal of their Sabbath rest by causing them to work on the 7th day.
And again - the fulfillment of the Sabbath for a Christian is the Lord's Day - Sunday (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Rev. 1:10).
"The word of God" in John 1:1 is not a reference to Scripture, but to YHWH's spoken words and thoughts before the word was made flesh. The same words and thoughts that created all things.
Wrong.

Scripture is merely God's WRITTEN Word - but it is His Word nonetheless (2 Tim. 3:16). You can't separate His Written Word from His Spoken word. Protestants have been trying to do that for 500 years.

Jesus is the Incarnation of that Word (John 1:14).
Yes, Yeshua is less than God if, by "God", you mean the only true God (Yeshua's Father YHWH - John 17:3). The reason Yeshua has a God and that his God is YHWH is because YHWH is greater than Yeshua. If you disagree with this last paragraph, feel free to PM me so as not to derail this thread.
So, then you believe as the JW's believe - that Jesus is a "junior" god - but His dad is the TOP god.

That is anti-Biblical nonsense. Jesus is GOD - He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity (Psalm 110:1, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, 1 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 1:23, Mark 14:61-62, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, John 5:18, John 10:30, John 10:33, John 10:36, John 13:13, John 14:9-10).
 

gadar perets

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If you believe that Jesus is less than God, then all your Sabbath-keeping will be of no avail. You will die in your sins.
So I hear from men, but not from Scripture.

And don't take an isolated Scripture and make a doctrine out of it.
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Jn 17:3)

What is this verse teaching? That you cannot segregate the only true God from Jesus Christ. Hence the "and". So now let's put this in perspective. If the only true God is the Father (which is true) then the Father cannot be segregated from the Son and the Holy Spirit, who constitute the one true God.
The "and" refers to who we are to "know"; the only true God (YHWH) and Yeshua. It is not saying Yeshua is also the only true God.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
(Mt 28:19).
This says nothing about the Son being the only true God.
 

gadar perets

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If you consider the Commandments as "Old Law" - then you are mistaken.
They transcend the Old and New Covenants because they are the MORAL Law.
I don't consider any Commandments as "OLD Law". That was your unscriptural designation for the Feasts and dietary laws. Faith establishes the Law for believers (Romans 3:31).

And again - the fulfillment of the Sabbath for a Christian is the Lord's Day - Sunday (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Rev. 1:10).
None of those verses say that Sabbath is abolished or changed to Sunday. You would do well to not read into the text what is not there.

Scripture is merely God's WRITTEN Word - but it is His Word nonetheless (2 Tim. 3:16). You can't separate His Written Word from His Spoken word. Protestants have been trying to do that for 500 years.
Yes, Scripture is the written Word, but in the context of John 1 the "logos/word" is not the written Word which didn't exist in the "beginning" that is referred to.

Jesus is the Incarnation of that Word (John 1:14).
If, by "Incarnation", you mean God embodied in flesh or God taking on flesh, then I disagree. The spoken words and thoughts of the Father (the logos) was made into a flesh and blood man when the Father spoke His Son into existence.

So, then you believe as the JW's believe - that Jesus is a "junior" god - but His dad is the TOP god.
Yeshua is NOT a "junior god". There is only one God, Yeshua's Father. When Scripture refers to the Son as "elohim" or "theos", it does NOT mean he is the only true God. It is to be understood in the same sense as the mighty men of Israel being "elohim" in Psalm 82.

That is anti-Biblical nonsense. Jesus is GOD - He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity (Psalm 110:1, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, 1 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 1:23, Mark 14:61-62, Luke 7:16, John 1:1, John 5:18, John 10:30, John 10:33, John 10:36, John 13:13, John 14:9-10).
I will not reply to all those verses since you "threw the book at me". That accomplishes nothing. I could post my abundance of Scripture as well. I will gladly reply to your first two verses to start with.

Psalm 110:1-
Yes, the Son sat down at the right hand of the only true God, YHWH. Nothing here about the Son being YHWH or God. This actually proves he is neither.

Isaiah 7:14-
Yes, a virgin shall give birth to a son. Nothing here about that son being God. Actually, it is the only true God, YHWH, that caused the virgin to conceive.
 

BreadOfLife

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I don't consider any Commandments as "OLD Law". That was your unscriptural designation for the Feasts and dietary laws. Faith establishes the Law for believers (Romans 3:31).
We're not bound by the dietary or ceremonial Laws of the Old Covenant.
We ARE abound by the MORAL Law.
None of those verses say that Sabbath is abolished or changed to Sunday. You would do well to not read into the text what is not there.
Nobody ever said that the Sabbath was "abolished". Jesus didn't "abolish" the Law - He fulfilled it.
He ALSO said that the Sabbath was for MAN - not man for the SABBATH.
Yes, Scripture is the written Word, but in the context of John 1 the "logos/word" is not the written Word which didn't exist in the "beginning" that is referred to.
The Written word is NO LESS a part of God's word than the spoken Word.
By the way - can you quote some of the spoken Word of God that is NOT written?
If, by "Incarnation", you mean God embodied in flesh or God taking on flesh, then I disagree. The spoken words and thoughts of the Father (the logos) was made into a flesh and blood man when the Father spoke His Son into existence.
Then you are in heresy because you deny the Jesus is God.
Yeshua is NOT a "junior god". There is only one God, Yeshua's Father. When Scripture refers to the Son as "elohim" or "theos", it does NOT mean he is the only true God. It is to be understood in the same sense as the mighty men of Israel being "elohim" in Psalm 82.
And again, you are in heresy and will die in your sins unless you have a change of heart.

Matt. 10:32-33
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
I will not reply to all those verses since you "threw the book at me". That accomplishes nothing. I could post my abundance of Scripture as well. I will gladly reply to your first two verses to start with.
Psalm 110:1- Yes, the Son sat down at the right hand of the only true God, YHWH. Nothing here about the Son being YHWH or God. This actually proves he is neither.
WRONG.
WHO was David's "Lord"??
Isaiah 7:14-
Yes, a virgin shall give birth to a son. Nothing here about that son being God. Actually, it is the only true God, YHWH, that caused the virgin to conceive.
WRONG again.

Matt. 1:23
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "GOD with us).
 
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gadar perets

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We're not bound by the dietary or ceremonial Laws of the Old Covenant.
We ARE abound by the MORAL Law.
I do not abide by the man made categories of moral and ceremonial. Who is to say what laws fall into each category? Scripture certainly does not tell us that. I believe all of YHWH's law are founded upon moral principles. According to modern dictionaries, "moral" means "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character." YHWH told us it is wrong, bad behavior to eat swine's flesh and other abominations. They disgust Him. Therefore, anyone who feeds themselves or others such abominations is committing an immoral act.

Nobody ever said that the Sabbath was "abolished". Jesus didn't "abolish" the Law - He fulfilled it.
He ALSO said that the Sabbath was for MAN - not man for the SABBATH.
Yeshua fulfilled the Sabbath by keeping the Sabbath. He did not free us from keeping it. Yes, the Sabbath was made for man. Therefore, the 7th day of rest was made for man. Man has no right to change that to the first day of the week and claim it is the New Covenant Sabbath.

The Written word is NO LESS a part of God's word than the spoken Word.
I never said it was. Please address what I actually write, not what you assume I mean.

By the way - can you quote some of the spoken Word of God that is NOT written?
No. However, YHWH spoke the earth into existence. We do not know what words He spoke to accomplish that.

Then you are in heresy because you deny the Jesus is God.
If, by "heresy" you mean "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine" or "opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted", then yes, I am in heresy. I am in good company since Yeshua was a heretic as well since his views were contrary to the orthodox religion of his day.

And again, you are in heresy and will die in your sins unless you have a change of heart.

Matt. 10:32-33
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

I have never denied Yeshua and by YHWH's grace I never will. You want that verse to read;

So everyone who acknowledges I am God before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies I am God before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Thankfully, it doesn't read that way. There is no verse in Scripture that says I will die in my sins if I do not believe Yeshua is "God".

.
WHO was David's "Lord"??

Again you did not read my words? I said he was "the Son". The words of Psalm 110:1 are prophetic and did not come to pass until AFTER Yeshua resurrected. That is when YHWH told him to sit at His right hand. He ascended to heaven and then sat on YHWH's right hand. Therefore, David was speaking of a time in his future when Yeshua would be his Lord. Yeshua was not David's Lord when David wrote that Psalm. He didn't become anyone's Lord until YHWH made him to be both "Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).

again.

Matt. 1:23
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "GOD with us).
This name is to be understood in the light of Acts 10:38; "How [YHWH] anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God (El) was with him." Not that Yeshua was El, but that El was with and in Yeshua. Since Yeshua was with "us" and El was with and in him, then El was with us as well. If you choose to use the logic of those in error, then consider the name Jehu. In Hebrew, this name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is He." Does that mean the man Jehu is, in reality, YHWH?
 

BreadOfLife

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I do not abide by the man made categories of moral and ceremonial. Who is to say what laws fall into each category? Scripture certainly does not tell us that. I believe all of YHWH's law are founded upon moral principles. According to modern dictionaries, "moral" means "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character." YHWH told us it is wrong, bad behavior to eat swine's flesh and other abominations. They disgust Him. Therefore, anyone who feeds themselves or others such abominations is committing an immoral act.
WRONG.
Scripture differentiates these things for us.

For example, Peter had a vision in Acts 10 and was told that the dietary Laws no longer applied.
Similarly, Paul tells us in Col. 2:16 that we are not bound by dietary laws, festivals, New Moons or Sabbaths.

The Moral Law, however, is STILL binding.
Yeshua fulfilled the Sabbath by keeping the Sabbath. He did not free us from keeping it. Yes, the Sabbath was made for man. Therefore, the 7th day of rest was made for man. Man has no right to change that to the first day of the week and claim it is the New Covenant Sabbath.
In the Old Covenant - God NEVER gave His people Supreme Authority - that WHATEVER they ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven.
He DID do that with His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
I never said it was. Please address what I actually write, not what you assume I mean.
THIS is what YOU said:
"Yes, Scripture is the written Word, but in the context of John 1 the "logos/word" is not the written Word which didn't exist in the "beginning" that is referred to."

This is complete hogwash because God's Word is ETERNAL.
No. However, YHWH spoke the earth into existence. We do not know what words He spoke to accomplish that.
Yup - and that is in the WRITTEN Word.
If, by "heresy" you mean "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine" or "opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted", then yes, I am in heresy. I am in good company since Yeshua was a heretic as well since his views were contrary to the orthodox religion of his day.
YOU are in heresy because you are in direct rebellion against HIS Word.
Virtually EVERY heresy begins with a misconception of the very nature of God - and YOU have that in spades . . .
I have never denied Yeshua and by YHWH's grace I never will. You want that verse to read;
So everyone who acknowledges I am God before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies I am God before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Thankfully, it doesn't read that way. There is no verse in Scripture that says I will die in my sins if I do not believe Yeshua is "God".
Nope - THAT verse doesn't read that way, But, by denying anything He taught - you are denying HIM.
He taught that He is God - and that He and the Father are ONE. He went so far as to say that if you have seen HIM - you have seen the Father (John 14:9).

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM (ego eimi).”

This is the SAME phrase that Yaweh told Moses from the Burning Bush.
Again you did not read my words? I said he was "the Son". The words of Psalm 110:1 are prophetic and did not come to pass until AFTER Yeshua resurrected. That is when YHWH told him to sit at His right hand. He ascended to heaven and then sat on YHWH's right hand. Therefore, David was speaking of a time in his future when Yeshua would be his Lord. Yeshua was not David's Lord when David wrote that Psalm. He didn't become anyone's Lord until YHWH made him to be both "Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).
WRONG.

The Son ALWAYS was in Heaven.
He was named "Jesus" or "Yeshua" on earth - but He ALWAYS existed.
This name is to be understood in the light of Acts 10:38; "How [YHWH] anointed Yeshua of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God (El) was with him." Not that Yeshua was El, but that El was with and in Yeshua. Since Yeshua was with "us" and El was with and in him, then El was with us as well. If you choose to use the logic of those in error, then consider the name Jehu. In Hebrew, this name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is He." Does that mean the man Jehu is, in reality, YHWH?
That's a pretty desperate reach.
In that sense - God was ALWAYS "with" us because He is omnipresent.

No - the Incarnation shows that God Himself took on human form and dwelt among us (John 1:14).
EVERYTHING was created through Him - and without Him NOTHING was made (John 1:3).

Jesus the Son - the 2nd Person of the Trinity is GOD Himself.[/QUOTE]
 

gadar perets

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WRONG.
Scripture differentiates these things for us.

For example, Peter had a vision in Acts 10 and was told that the dietary Laws no longer applied.
The interpretation that YHWH gave Peter is in Acts 10:28;

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
You have given the vision a FALSE interpretation.

Similarly, Paul tells us in Col. 2:16 that we are not bound by dietary laws, festivals, New Moons or Sabbaths.
You say "not bound by", but Paul said, "Let no man judge you". Another FALSE interpretation.

In the Old Covenant - God NEVER gave His people Supreme Authority - that WHATEVER they ordained on earth would also be ordained in Heaven.
He DID do that with His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Don't you ever read the verses you post? Not one of the passages/verses says believers have supreme authority to ordain.

is what YOU said:
"Yes, Scripture is the written Word, but in the context of John 1 the "logos/word" is not the written Word which didn't exist in the "beginning" that is referred to."

This is complete hogwash because God's Word is ETERNAL.
Again you FAILED to read my words. I said the "WRITTEN WORD" did not exist.

are in heresy because you are in direct rebellion against HIS Word.
Virtually EVERY heresy begins with a misconception of the very nature of God - and YOU have that in spades . . .

I fully admit that I am directly rebelling against your interpretation of His Word.


Nope - THAT verse doesn't read that way, But, by denying anything He taught - you are denying HIM.
He taught that He is God - and that He and the Father are ONE. He went so far as to say that if you have seen HIM - you have seen the Father (John 14:9).
He NEVER taught that he was God. He ALWAYS taught that he was the Son of God. When he said, "the Father and I are one," he taught us exactly what he meant in John 17:11, 22. That believers are to be one IN THE EXACT SAME SENSE that he and his Father are one. That is NOT a oneness of being, but of purpose, beliefs, etc.

As for John 14:9, are you declaring the Son IS the Father???? Are you anti-trinitarian? Trinitarians do not believe the Father is the Son or vice versa. Yeshua meant that because he is the exact image of the Father, when you see him, you see the Father. They have the exact character, goals, beliefs, etc. If Yeshua is the Father, then John 6:46 is nonsense. The fact is, your interpretation is nonsense.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM (ego eimi).”

This is the SAME phrase that Yaweh told Moses from the Burning Bush.
It is also the SAME phrase the blind man used in John 9:9;

ἄλλοι ἔλεγον ὅτι οὗτός ἐστιν· ἄλλοι δὲ ὅτι ὅμοιος αὐτῷ ἐστιν. ἐκεῖνος ἔλεγεν ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι.
YHWH did not write or speak Greek to Moses. However, in the Greek Septuagint, the full phrase is ego eimi o on (I am the being). If Yeshua wanted to tell the Jews he was the great "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, he would have said, "I am the being".

Exo 3:14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς. LXX
Exo 3:14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you. Brenton's translation of LXX
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.​

As you can see, it is the latter part of the phrase that matters in Greek.

The Son ALWAYS was in Heaven.
He was named "Jesus" or "Yeshua" on earth - but He ALWAYS existed.
Prior to his earthly birth, he existed in the mind/plan of YHWH, not as a literal living being.

That's a pretty desperate reach.
In that sense - God was ALWAYS "with" us because He is omnipresent.
We read in the NT that God was "with" and "in" Yeshua. We never read that He "was" or "is" Yeshua. That concept does not exist in Scripture. Only in the creeds of men.

No - the Incarnation shows that God Himself took on human form and dwelt among us (John 1:14).
EVERYTHING was created through Him - and without Him NOTHING was made (John 1:3).
Yes, if you choose to read Yeshua into the text. The "logos" was not a living being prior to Yeshua's conception. It was a thing; the Father's spoken words and thoughts including His plan of salvation. Major translations prior to the KJV make that clear. For example, Tyndale's translation, from which we get most of our KJV, reads as follows;

John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. (Notice "worde" is not capitalized)
John 1:2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
John 1:3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. ("it", not "him")
John 1:4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men​

Tyndale, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible, The Bishop's Bible, and several others all translate the passage similarly.
 

Pilgrimer

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Quick question:

Can a shadow be fulfilled to the point that it is abolished before the reality comes?

Just as the shadow of the Passover lambs were not to cease until the true Lamb, the true reality, came, all other shadows are not to cease until their realities come.

Please explain how he is the reality of the Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah). In what way did he fulfill that feast … If you believe it points to Yeshua's second coming, then by keeping that feast you are proclaiming Yeshua's second coming.

A shadow being fulfilled means whatever it foreshadowed comes to pass. If a shadow is abolished and is not fulfilled, it was not actually a foreshadowing of anything.

But I think the crux of the issue is whether or not Jesus fulfilled all the Law (including the fall feasts). I contend that he did, in contrast to modern dispensationalism that teaches he did not fulfill all the Law but only fulfilled part of the law and the rest is still to be fulfilled.

But before I address what Trumpets signified, let me point out a rather glaring problem with the partial fulfillment doctrine: if Jesus has not fulfilled the fall feasts, that would mean he has not fulfilled what the Day of Atonement foreshadowed … which means there is no atonement for sin.

But as for Trumpets, the first thing, and perhaps the most important thing, harkens back to the wilderness. If you recall, the people were told to prepare themselves and be ready and “when they heard the voice of the trumpet” they were to go up to the Mount to receive the Word of God. (Exodus 19)

And throughout the generations, morning and evening, sabbaths and feast days, the voice of the trumpet sounded, to call the people up to the mount, to approach to the door of the Lord’s House to worship God.

And when John the Baptist began his ministry in the fall of the year, he referred to himself as “the voice in the wilderness,” harkening back to that long-ago event. And certainly, the message of the Baptist was a call to the people to come up to the mount of God, and to receive the Word made flesh. The perfect fulfillment of everything that the receiving of the Law at Mt. Sinai thousands of years earlier foreshadowed.

Of all those things which trumpets foreshadowed, I think that typology is the most beautiful, but that’s not all.

Trumpets were also used during the wilderness journeying, to direct the people when to break camp and assemble, when to move out, when to rest, and when to make camp. It was also the way the Israelite army (as with all ancient armies) controlled the movement of troops. The symbolism is that we as believers, as we journey through the wilderness of this world, we follow the voice of the trump which directs us when to rise and when to lie down, when to break camp and when to make camp, when to march and when to rest, directing our steps every hour of every day.

And yet another use of trumpets was to announce the beginning of the new year, which symbolism is difficult to miss in terms of the New Covenant being the beginning of the New Creation, and the coming of Jesus the beginning of “the acceptable year of the Lord.”

But there is also a more dire typology of trumpets in Scripture in that they signified an alarm. The song “Blow the trumpet in Zion” is often sung by Christian congregations as a song of joy and worship, but in fact that passage of Scripture is speaking of something dark and tragic. In the days of the Old Covenant, watchmen were stationed on the tops of the walls of cities to keep watch for any approaching armies. If they saw a threat approaching, there was a signal they would sound on a trumpet to alert the people that destruction was coming. An interesting point about that is the Scripture said that if a watchman saw a threat coming and didn’t sound the alarm and the people were destroyed, their blood would be upon his head. If however, he did sound the alarm but the people refused to heed it and they were destroyed, then their blood was upon their own heads, the watchman who warned them was clean. This is what Paul meant when the Jews at Corinth opposed the Gospel and insulted Paul and he turned from them to go to the Gentiles. (Act 18) He had warned them, and they had refused to heed his warning, so when the war broke out and the nation was destroyed and Jews were hunted down and killed throughout the Diaspora, their blood was upon their own heads.

The Gospel was many things but primarily it was a call to the people to come up to the mount and to meet with God and receive His Word, but it was also a warning, an alarm, that that generation would not pass away until all things had been fulfilled, and that included the judgment and destruction of everything that pertained to the Old Covenant.

Perhaps this will give you some food for thought beyond what dispensational eschatology teaches.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

ScottA

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Quick question:

Can a shadow be fulfilled to the point that it is abolished before the reality comes?
It all depends on your perspective.

You see...all things "were" before the foundation of the world.

So the real questions is...what do you consider "reality?" If you consider reality to be what the world sees...it's all shadows (in the image of), and you would be wrong every time.
 
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gadar perets

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A shadow being fulfilled means whatever it foreshadowed comes to pass. If a shadow is abolished and is not fulfilled, it was not actually a foreshadowing of anything.
Paul declared the Holy Days to be shadows. Some of them have NOT been fulfilled. Therefore, they are still shadows awaiting their realities/fulfillment. They CANNOT be abolished at this time.

But I think the crux of the issue is whether or not Jesus fulfilled all the Law (including the fall feasts). I contend that he did, in contrast to modern dispensationalism that teaches he did not fulfill all the Law but only fulfilled part of the law and the rest is still to be fulfilled.

But before I address what Trumpets signified, let me point out a rather glaring problem with the partial fulfillment doctrine: if Jesus has not fulfilled the fall feasts, that would mean he has not fulfilled what the Day of Atonement foreshadowed … which means there is no atonement for sin.
He fulfilled the atonement sacrifices (and all other Holy Day sacrifices). He did not fulfill the day itself. As our High Priest, he has yet to come out of the Heavenly sanctuary. He did not fulfill the anti-typical Jubilee Trumpet being blown to set the captives of death free.

But as for Trumpets, the first thing, and perhaps the most important thing, harkens back to the wilderness. If you recall, the people were told to prepare themselves and be ready and “when they heard the voice of the trumpet” they were to go up to the Mount to receive the Word of God. (Exodus 19)

And throughout the generations, morning and evening, sabbaths and feast days, the voice of the trumpet sounded, to call the people up to the mount, to approach to the door of the Lord’s House to worship God.

And when John the Baptist began his ministry in the fall of the year, he referred to himself as “the voice in the wilderness,” harkening back to that long-ago event. And certainly, the message of the Baptist was a call to the people to come up to the mount of God, and to receive the Word made flesh. The perfect fulfillment of everything that the receiving of the Law at Mt. Sinai thousands of years earlier foreshadowed.

Of all those things which trumpets foreshadowed, I think that typology is the most beautiful, but that’s not all.

Trumpets were also used during the wilderness journeying, to direct the people when to break camp and assemble, when to move out, when to rest, and when to make camp. It was also the way the Israelite army (as with all ancient armies) controlled the movement of troops. The symbolism is that we as believers, as we journey through the wilderness of this world, we follow the voice of the trump which directs us when to rise and when to lie down, when to break camp and when to make camp, when to march and when to rest, directing our steps every hour of every day.

And yet another use of trumpets was to announce the beginning of the new year, which symbolism is difficult to miss in terms of the New Covenant being the beginning of the New Creation, and the coming of Jesus the beginning of “the acceptable year of the Lord.”

But there is also a more dire typology of trumpets in Scripture in that they signified an alarm. The song “Blow the trumpet in Zion” is often sung by Christian congregations as a song of joy and worship, but in fact that passage of Scripture is speaking of something dark and tragic. In the days of the Old Covenant, watchmen were stationed on the tops of the walls of cities to keep watch for any approaching armies. If they saw a threat approaching, there was a signal they would sound on a trumpet to alert the people that destruction was coming. An interesting point about that is the Scripture said that if a watchman saw a threat coming and didn’t sound the alarm and the people were destroyed, their blood would be upon his head. If however, he did sound the alarm but the people refused to heed it and they were destroyed, then their blood was upon their own heads, the watchman who warned them was clean. This is what Paul meant when the Jews at Corinth opposed the Gospel and insulted Paul and he turned from them to go to the Gentiles. (Act 18) He had warned them, and they had refused to heed his warning, so when the war broke out and the nation was destroyed and Jews were hunted down and killed throughout the Diaspora, their blood was upon their own heads.

The Gospel was many things but primarily it was a call to the people to come up to the mount and to meet with God and receive His Word, but it was also a warning, an alarm, that that generation would not pass away until all things had been fulfilled, and that included the judgment and destruction of everything that pertained to the Old Covenant.
None of what you mentioned fulfills the shadow of Yom Teruah. Just because a verse uses the word trumpet, does not mean it relates to the shadow of Yom Teruah. That is like saying the bread Jacob gave Esau in Genesis 25:34 is related to the bread that was waved on the shadow of Shavuot in Leviticus 23:17-20. The latter bread represents the firstfruits of the wheat harvest of souls at their resurrection and the former has absolutely nothing to do with that. BTW, the shadow of Shavuot is also unfulfilled since the firstfruits of men have not been resurrected.

You are also mixing up shadows and types. Shadows do not "harken back". They are a shadow cast back in time by something in the future. Therefore, Yom Teruah cannot "harken back" to the trumpet of Exodus 19. It can only look forward from when it was commanded. The trumpets used for a call to war will indeed fulfill Yom Teruah. I believe the reality of Yom Teruah is the beginning of the Day of YHWH in which the first trumpet judgment of Revelation 8 marks its beginning. That is when YHWH will go to war against the wicked.