Shadows and Realities

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Enoch111

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Also, if Yeshua is the reality of those things, then we should easily be able to state how he fulfilled them. Yet, no believer I know of can tell us how he fulfilled Yom Teruah or the Jubilee trumpet or Sukkot or the latter rain or the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is an ongoing shadow of the believers putting leaven out of our lives (an ongoing process), etc.
What needs to be emphasized here is that when Christ died on the Cross and declared "It is finished", it was as much a reference to the end of the Old Covenant as it was to his perfect redemptive work on the Cross.

All feasts, festivals, holy days, new moons, and sabbaths were a part of the Old Covenant given to Israel. Therefore none of of them are mentioned in Acts 15. And this is critical.

So you can interpret Colossians 2 any way you want, but none of those observance are for the Church. Since Christ our Passover was already sacrificed for us, the only feast for Christians is the Memorial Feast of the Lord's Supper on the Lord's Day (the first day of the week).

However, if you wish to observe the Old Covenant, then you must observe all of it, and since that is an impossibility, you know you should stick with the New Covenant and New Testament truth for the Church.
 
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gadar perets

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What needs to be emphasized here is that when Christ died on the Cross and declared "It is finished", it was as much a reference to the end of the Old Covenant as it was to his perfect redemptive work on the Cross.
The Old Covenant did not end at the cross which is why Hebrews 8:13 says it was "ready to vanish away". This was written long after the cross. "It is finished" refers to Messiah's work of redemption.

All feasts, festivals, holy days, new moons, and sabbaths were a part of the Old Covenant given to Israel. Therefore none of of them are mentioned in Acts 15. And this is critical.
I assume you are referring to the fact that only four specific laws were given to the Gentile converts? If so, then they are permitted to break all Ten Commandments (with the possible exception of the first). Oh, but you would say nine of those ten are commanded elsewhere in the NT. Correct, but that invalidates your argument here about them not being mentioned in Acts 15. So it is not as critical as you think. Actually, those for prohibitions were given to the Gentile converts as a starting point to foster fellowship with Jewish believers. However, Acts 15:21 tells us why they were given only those four; "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." The new converts would eventually learn the rest of Moses as they heard him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. There were no Sunday services at this point in history. Going to a synagogue was the only way to hear the Word of YHWH read.

So you can interpret Colossians 2 any way you want, but none of those observance are for the Church. Since Christ our Passover was already sacrificed for us, the only feast for Christians is the Memorial Feast of the Lord's Supper on the Lord's Day (the first day of the week).
It is interesting that you should mention "Christ our Passover" being sacrificed for us. What did Paul say after that?

1Co 5:7-8 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
What feast? He was referring to the Feast of Unleavened Bread which started a few hours after the Passover lambs were sacrificed. He certainly was NOT referring to the Lord's Supper which began being kept on the first day of the week long after Paul died.

However, if you wish to observe the Old Covenant, then you must observe all of it, and since that is an impossibility, you know you should stick with the New Covenant and New Testament truth for the Church.
I do not observe the OC. I am a NC believer who believes YHWH's words when He says through Jeremiah that "TORAH" would be written on hearts and minds of NC believers (Jeremiah 31:33);

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law (Hebrew - TORAH) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
All Jews knew exactly what He meant. Yes, I will stick to the NC and the New Testament truth as revealed in Scripture, but not as distorted from pulpits.
 
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Truth

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Although I understand what you are saying - I don't believe He was dealing with a "False" religion - and here's why . . .

As far as the LEADERS (Pharisees/Saducees) - they imposed their own traditions on the people that "nullified" God's Word because they placed their traditions OVER God's word. HOWEVER - Jesus told the crowds:
Matt. 23:3
So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.


In other words - He was telling them to obey their leaders - but not to be hypocrites like them.
Jesus never would have told the people to follow a "False" religion.

THANK YOU for your response!
 

BreadOfLife

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2,000 years? We are discussing the English translations which have risen in the last 400 years or so that were made by translators who were part of a church that had abolished the Feasts and Sabbaths. Their bias clearly entered their translations.

Nice try. If the reality had truly come and the Feasts/Sabbaths were fulfilled before Paul wrote Colossians, he would have used the past tense just as he did in Acts 13:33 or as the writer of Hebrews (possibly Paul) in Hebrews 9:9.
HOGWASH.
Those things are STILL being practiced today so they can STILL be spoken of in the present tense.

Besides the used of tense - past and present - in Acts 13:33 and Heb 9:9 is is not the same as Col. 2:16-17. It's apples and oranges . . .
Why haven't you answered my question in post #5?
I didn't know it was addressed to ME.
 

Enoch111

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The Old Covenant did not end at the cross which is why Hebrews 8:13 says it was "ready to vanish away".
That is only because God allowed the temple and the Levitical priesthood to remain operational until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Hebrews was written in the early 60s. So accurately what Paul said was prophetic.

But the veil of the temple was supernaturally torn in two on the day of crucifixion, which meant that the priests and the Levites should have rent their garments and sat down in sackcloth and ashes and turned to Christ immediately.
 

gadar perets

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HOGWASH.
Those things are STILL being practiced today so they can STILL be spoken of in the present tense.
I can understand you saying that about the word "are", but NOT about "things to come". Yes, people still keep the Feasts and Sabbaths today and they ARE shadows of things TO COME in our future. Messiah is not the reality of all those things. He was the reality of the Passover lambs and of all sacrifices, but there are other things to come that will be the reality of what still remains as shadows for ALL believers.

I didn't know it was addressed to ME.
Why not? You brought up Christ being the reality, so I asked you how he was the reality of Yom Teruah. Now that you know I was asking you, I await your answer.

BTW, anyone else is welcome to answer as well.
 

gadar perets

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That is only because God allowed the temple and the Levitical priesthood to remain operational until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. Hebrews was written in the early 60s. So accurately what Paul said was prophetic.
So you agree that the OC did not end at the cross. Good.

But the veil of the temple was supernaturally torn in two on the day of crucifixion, which meant that the priests and the Levites should have rent their garments and sat down in sackcloth and ashes and turned to Christ immediately.
I agree.
 

BreadOfLife

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I can understand you saying that about the word "are", but NOT about "things to come". Yes, people still keep the Feasts and Sabbaths today and they ARE shadows of things TO COME in our future. Messiah is not the reality of all those things. He was the reality of the Passover lambs and of all sacrifices, but there are other things to come that will be the reality of what still remains as shadows for ALL believers.

Why not? You brought up Christ being the reality, so I asked you how he was the reality of Yom Teruah. Now that you know I was asking you, I await your answer.

BTW, anyone else is welcome to answer as well.
Whereas Jesus fulfilled all of the types and prophesied about the Messiah's coming, sacrifice and resurrection, you're right - there are still some fulfillments yet to come. The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) seems to be one of them that will be heralded at His 2nd Coming.

This has nothing to do, however, with His fulfilling the Law which has already happened. MY point was that since there are still those who are practicing the Law - verses like Col. 2:16-17 can be used in the present tense in which it was written.
 

gadar perets

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Whereas Jesus fulfilled all of the types and prophesied about the Messiah's coming, sacrifice and resurrection, you're right - there are still some fulfillments yet to come. The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) seems to be one of them that will be heralded at His 2nd Coming.
I am glad you see this. So the point of my OP is that since the shadow of the Feast of Trumpets has not been fulfilled yet, it should still be kept by YHWH's people. Your reply of "No" in post #4 seems to agree.

This has nothing to do, however, with His fulfilling the Law which has already happened. MY point was that since there are still those who are practicing the Law - verses like Col. 2:16-17 can be used in the present tense in which it was written.
I agree the "fulfilling of the law has already happened", but not in the sense you think it has. Obviously, since the fulfilling of Trumpets has not happened yet, then the law has not been fulfilled in its totality. However, Yeshua did fulfill the law in that he walked in love and kept every commandment perfectly. Love fulfills the law, but it does not fulfill particular shadows that have their own fulfillment. So then, Paul's words in Colossians 2:17 were written with those future fulfillments in mind. Therefore, Yeshua is not the "reality" of them all. The concept of reality should not be the meaning of "soma". In context, "soma" should be translated "body" in reference to the "body of Christ" (the church). Believers should not allow outsiders to judge us regarding the things in verse 16.
 
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BreadOfLife

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I am glad you see this. So the point of my OP is that since the shadow of the Feast of Trumpets has not been fulfilled yet, it should still be kept by YHWH's people. Your reply of "No" in post #4 seems to agree.
I disagree.
Just because a type still haven't been fulfilled completely doesn't mean that it still needs to be practiced.

In Christ, what would be gained from this - or practicing ANY of the OT types??
We are under the Law of GRACE - not the OLD Law of festivals, dietary mandates, burnt offerings, etc.
I agree the "fulfilling of the law has already happened", but not in the sense you think it has. Obviously, since the fulfilling of Trumpets has not happened yet, then the law has not been fulfilled in its totality. However, Yeshua did fulfill the law in that he walked in love and kept every commandment perfectly. Love fulfills the law, but it does not fulfill particular shadows that have their own fulfillment. So then, Paul's words in Colossians 2:17 were written with those future fulfillments in mind. Therefore, Yeshua is not the "reality" of them all. The concept of reality should not be the meaning of "soma". In context, "soma" should be translated "body" in reference to the "body of Christ" (the church). Believers should not allow outsiders to judge us regarding the things in verse 16.
And I disagree.

He IS the reality of them all. Jesus told the men on the Road to Emmaus that the Scriptures (OT) were ABOUT HIM. Even the fulfillments to come are about Him.

It's ALL about Him.
 
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gadar perets

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I disagree.
Just because a type still haven't been fulfilled completely doesn't mean that it still needs to be practiced.
In your other post you said Passover lambs needed to continue to be sacrificed until the reality came. Are you now believing differently? Of course it needs to be practiced. Otherwise, what was the purpose of the shadow? The shadow points to the reality to come in a person's future. The Feast of Trumpets, for example, has a future reality. When we keep/practice the shadow we are proclaiming the reality to come. If you believe it points to Yeshua's second coming, then by keeping that feast you are proclaiming Yeshua's second coming.

In Christ, what would be gained from this - or practicing ANY of the OT types??
See above.

We are under the Law of GRACE - not the OLD Law of festivals, dietary mandates, burnt offerings, etc.
Then why keep nine of the ten commandments? Aren't they part of the "OLD Law"? Why keep the two greatest commandments which are part of that "OLD Law"? The fact is, that "OLD Law" called "Torah" is to be written on hearts and minds under the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33). Torah includes the Feasts, dietary laws, and Sabbaths.

And I disagree.

He IS the reality of them all. Jesus told the men on the Road to Emmaus that the Scriptures (OT) were ABOUT HIM. Even the fulfillments to come are about Him.

It's ALL about Him.
Luke 24:27 And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
There are many things about Yeshua in the OT, but it is NOT all about him. For example, the two wave loaves in Leviticus 23:17 do not represent Yeshua since they are baked with leaven. They are fulfilled by the 144,000 who are the "firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev 14:4).
 

Helen

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I disagree.
Just because a type still haven't been fulfilled completely doesn't mean that it still needs to be practiced.

In Christ, what would be gained from this - or practicing ANY of the OT types??
We are under the Law of GRACE - not the OLD Law of festivals, dietary mandates, burnt offerings, etc.

And I disagree.

He IS the reality of them all. Jesus told the men on the Road to Emmaus that the Scriptures (OT) were ABOUT HIM. Even the fulfillments to come are about Him.

It's ALL about Him.

Yes I also agree...Good post.

Quick question:

Can a shadow be fulfilled to the point that it is abolished before the reality comes?

I don't really understand ..a "shadow" and a "Type" are just that...Shadows of that which is to come.

Types and shadows do not need to be "practiced" until the the true is manifested. I see no where that says a shadow or type must be continued with. Some are...but many are not.

So my answer is Yes.

th2cents.gif
 

Helen

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But the veil of the temple was supernaturally torn in two on the day of crucifixion, which meant that the priests and the Levites should have rent their garments and sat down in sackcloth and ashes and turned to Christ immediately.


Excellent.
 

Helen

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So you agree that the OC did not end at the cross. Good.

Interesting, How so?...
My understanding from Colossians 2:14 is the answer is yes it did.
14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.."

Thanks
 

Helen

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Could sacrificing a Passover lamb each year cease even though the true Passover Lamb, Yeshua, had not come yet?

Sorry, I am only just catching up with this thread...so I am going backward to page 1 also :)

My answer is, yes it 'could have' I guess, ...but kind of a non question ..because God had not destined for it to stop before the Last Spotless Lamb was sacrificed. The high priest even confirmed that He was the Last Lamb.
 

gadar perets

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Types and shadows do not need to be "practiced" until the the true is manifested. I see no where that says a shadow or type must be continued with. Some are...but many are not.
Please provide some examples where a shadow ceased to be observed before the reality came.
 

gadar perets

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Interesting, How so?...
My understanding from Colossians 2:14 is the answer is yes it did.
14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.."

Thanks
The Old Covenant is not the "handwriting of ordinances". The Greek word for ordinances here is a form of the root word "dogma" which means man-made rules, laws, commandments, precepts, etc. Paul is not talking about YHWH's ordinances (Dikaioma - used in Luke 1:6 pertaining to the ordinances of YHWH and in Hebrews 9:1,10 pertaining once again to YHWH's ordinances) in this verse. He is talking about man's ordinances or traditions. This same root word (dogma) is used in Colossians 2:20 pertaining to the doctrines and commandments of men. The word "handwriting" is the Greek word "cheirographon" which was a certificate of debt. Whenever a man sins against YHWH his sin is imputed against him (Romans 4:7-8). When men exalt the traditions of men over the commandments of YHWH, as the Pharisees did for example, it causes people to sin against YHWH. The Messiah became sin for us and when He was nailed to the tree so were the sins that were imputed against us. YHWH's holy ordinances were not nailed to the tree, the certificate of our sin debt resulting in our death sentence was nailed to the tree. That is why Paul said the Colossians were "dead in your sins" in verse 13. The principalities and powers of verse 15 caused the people to sin by their man-made laws but Messiah was victorious over them.
 

Helen

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Please provide some examples where a shadow ceased to be observed before the reality came.

Joseph for one...was a shadow and type of Christ...raised to the Throne...fed the nations when starving ...provided for his brethren etc etc....

Boaz too , a type of the Redeemer....
 

gadar perets

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Sorry, I am only just catching up with this thread...so I am going backward to page 1 also :)

My answer is, yes it 'could have' I guess, ...but kind of a non question ..because God had not destined for it to stop before the Last Spotless Lamb was sacrificed. The high priest even confirmed that He was the Last Lamb.
Just as the shadow of the Passover lambs were not to cease until the true Lamb, the true reality, came, all other shadows are not to cease until their realities come.
 

Helen

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Just as the shadow of the Passover lambs were not to cease until the true Lamb, the true reality, came, all other shadows are not to cease until their realities come.

So you say...