Should Christians Always Be Healed?

[marks]

You make it sound as if we are in charge here. We are not.

Gee . . . I was thinking the same thing about some things you had written . . .

My point is, instead of thinking of this sin as greater, and that sin as lesser, what if we were to consider that the flesh has it's works, and they are all evil, and the Spirit lives joined to our spirit, and walking in that is righteousness?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The metaphor is of someone who wants greater intimacy ("supping" with someone). If they did not belong to God, He would not have written to them in Revelation, but the Lord depicted Himself here as standing outside the door and knocking to get in, which means the intimacy was not there like He wanted it to be.


Mark, He addressed the seven churches.


Enoch, look at the context. He addressed the entire church as being in this condition. If they did not belong to Him, what in the world was He doing writing to them?

14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”

Throughout the NT, Believers and unbelievers are addressed according to their profession, without the the determination whether they are truly reborn or not.

Exceptions to that have very specific wording, such as, If ye be raised with Christ, things like that, to make it very certain.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but the Lord depicted Himself here as standing outside the door and knocking to get in, which means the intimacy was not there like He wanted it to be.

Yes, He said He was outside, not inside. The person.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The only reason the church is not coming under tremendous judgment and correction right now is because the Lord is still largely outside of the church trying to get back in (Revelation 3:20).

To my thinking . . .

Correction comes to the Christian who is not walking with Christ the way Jesus wants for us. IF I'm shutting Jesus out, that's when He is going to chasten me - train as one trains a child - to bring me into a spiritual walk.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

Enoch, look at the context. He addressed the entire church as being in this condition. If they did not belong to Him, what in the world was He doing writing to them?

The text says only that it was the church at Laodicea. There are many church buildings today which have a cross and claim to be Christians. But are the people within saved? Are they regenerated? Obviously the Laodiceans were not.

Saved Christians are clothed with the righteousness of Christ. They are not naked in the spiritual sense. But what does Christ tell these people? "...and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear..." Obviously the "white raiment" is the imputed righteousness of Christ, given to those who have repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[marks]

I had never noted the kjv of those Vss. Don’t think I ever saw that passage in that translation! Mine says it more like…when troubles of any kind come your way, consider it an opportunity for great joy because whenever your trust is tested, it grows your endurance and when your endurance is fully grown you will be perfect and in need of nothing. (My translation says faith rather than trust but as usual, my mind automatically understands the word as meaning trusting God - whatever He sends to you and everything He has said, trusting it is for your good and believing it as true.)

Patience makes sense I guess…patient endurance,

Maybe endurance communicates the idea better. Both are good I think. I like the way the KJV puts this, let patience have it's perfect work, that is, the act of enduring during trouble works in us like medicine.

We just have to wait it out, whatever it is, trusting Jesus.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Enoch, look at the context. He addressed the entire church as being in this condition. If they did not belong to Him, what in the world was He doing writing to them?

Revelation 3:14 YLT
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God;

Much love!

 

[Triumph1300]

The Apostle Paul as far as we know continued to have a thorn of the flesh until his death.

"The thorn of the flesh" might have been the persecution and opposition he experienced.
It bothers me when people get prayed over for healing and someone walks by and start telling people God does not heal all the time and use Paul as an example .....throwing doubt around about healing.

 

[Hidden In Him]

My point is, instead of thinking of this sin as greater, and that sin as lesser, what if we were to consider that the flesh has it's works, and they are all evil, and the Spirit lives joined to our spirit, and walking in that is righteousness?

Your question hasn't changed, Mark.

Gee . . . I was thinking the same thing about some things you had written . . .

What did I write?

Throughout the NT, Believers and unbelievers are addressed according to their profession, without the the determination whether they are truly reborn or not.

Scriptures for this. I have no idea what you are referring to.

The text says only that it was the church at Laodicea. There are many church buildings today which have a cross and claim to be Christians. But are the people within saved? Are they regenerated? Obviously the Laodiceans were not.

Are you saying all the churches he addressed were dead? If not, then why did He address one that was? Makes no sense to me.

Revelation 3:14 YLT
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness—the faithful and true—the chief of the creation of God;

Much love!

Yes, and this one still throws me a curve I haven't fully come to grips with yet. All the "you"s are singular, and almost nothing in this address is plural save the final comment, "Let him who has an ear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

I'd have to back up from it to try and read the passage differently than the way I have grown accustomed to even answer.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[marks]

Your question hasn't changed, Mark.

From a different direction . . .

You seem to see chastening as in relation to certain sins you might commit, and that it is to teach you to stop giving in.

While I don't disagree with that perspective, I see God's chastening as effecting the renewing of our minds. Patient endurance . . . let patience have her perfect work, that you may be complete, wanting nothing. As we endure suffering, it changes us, changes our neural pathways - brain plasticity - and God will us timing and Scriptures, and all sorts of things to tweak us. And maybe we think we are being chastized for looking at porn last week or whatever, but maybe what's really happening is that God is breaking down and building back up some really foundational part of our heart or mind.

I think there is chastening on all levels of our lives, and I think that we don't always know what's what, and I think we are better to humbly receive from God's hand such as He gives, and to know that He is managing everything in our lives for our good, so we can just throw ourselves on His Mercy.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, and this one still throws me a curve I haven't fully come to grips with yet. All the "you"s are singular, and almost nothing in this address is plural save the final comment, "Let him who has an ear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

Just like Philemon. A letter written to an individual, with it's first and primary application to that individual. And after that, to whomever it applies.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

Are you saying all the churches he addressed were dead?

No. The church are Laodicea was the only one where Christ was standing outside the door. Are there churches like that today? I'm sure you know the answer.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Just like Philemon. A letter written to an individual, with it's first and primary application to that individual. And after that, to whomever it applies.

Much love!

Thought it over some on the way to the store, and for starters, I stand corrected. The address doesn't even mention the congregation at all, only the leader of the church (and whereas I was saying the "messengers" of the churches might refer to the readers, it cannot, unless the readers and the leaders were one and the same). Nor can it refer to an angel unless a fallen one, LoL. So yes, it is clearly written specifically to the leader of that church, not the congregation itself.

The reason I had a tough time assimilating that from our last discussion on it is two-fold:
A. Revelations God gives you directly are always easier to remember than those he gives someone else. I learned that one from you second hand.
B. There was a revelation given to the church several decades ago that the seven churches spoke prophetically of spiritual conditions that will exist in the church throughout seven ages leading up until the time of Christ's return. I subscribe to this, yet always interpreted it be referring to the condition of the church as a whole in our time. But if it runs a parallel with the leadership of the church in particular, look at how well it parallels now! It's even more accurate a description. Much of the current leadership in the church is getting rich off of it, all while proclaiming themselves to be spiritually "rich" when they are in fact spiritually impoverished.

Anyway, yes, it was the leader of this church who was in sin in particular.

The text says only that it was the church at Laodicea. There are many church buildings today which have a cross and claim to be Christians. But are the people within saved? Are they regenerated? Obviously the Laodiceans were not.

Saved Christians are clothed with the righteousness of Christ. They are not naked in the spiritual sense. But what does Christ tell these people? "...and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear..." Obviously the "white raiment" is the imputed righteousness of Christ, given to those who have repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.

We would have to find the thread, but Marks was sharing several months ago how the "angels" of the churches would have to be men, i.e. human "messengers." That's what my response above is in reference to. As a result, I believe this address wasn't written to the church as a whole but to the leader of it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

While I don't disagree with that perspective, I see God's chastening as effecting the renewing of our minds. Patient endurance . . . let patience have her perfect work, that you may be complete, wanting nothing. As we endure suffering, it changes us, changes our neural pathways - brain plasticity - and God will us timing and Scriptures, and all sorts of things to tweak us. And maybe we think we are being chastized for looking at porn last week or whatever, but maybe what's really happening is that God is breaking down and building back up some really foundational part of our heart or mind.

So you mean chastening purely for spiritual growth's sake, not because we have done anything wrong? I do believe sufferings can do a greater work in us, yes, but I just don't know what passages of scripture could be used to support it... other than the Book of Job, and the cripple waiting his whole life at the pool to be healed.

 

[marks]

So you mean chastening purely for spiritual growth's sake, not because we have done anything wrong? I do believe sufferings can do a greater work in us, yes, but I just don't know what passages of scripture could be used to support it... other than the Book of Job, and the cripple waiting his whole life at the pool to be healed.

Growth is moving from non-spiritual to spiritual thinking, which moves us from unrighteous to righteous living,

I see chastening as jump-starting us when we've stalled.

Much love!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Are you referring to the Law of the Covenant made between God and Israel at Mount Horeb?

Much love!

Paul didn't make any reference to that Covenant. He referred to Moses and the Prophets, so it was the Mosaic and ceremonial Law that he was talking about.

Christian believers do follow the Law, but not to make any demands on God for it. All Christian believers should be doing good works, no doubt about that. But these good works are not to receive any sort of merit from God. A debt cancelled by grace is not because the debtor has paid the debt in full. It is because the creditor through generosity has cancelled the unpaid debt and set the debtor free from it. This is what justification is all about. God, through His mercy and grace cancelled our debt of sin, because Jesus paid the full debt when He suffered on the Cross. Therefore, the Christian believer keeps the Law, not through obligation to gain or keep his redemption, but because he or she has already been redeemed by God's mercy and grace.

There are some who believe that we are saved by God's grace, but thereafter have to maintain good works to keep our salvation. But this is false teaching. As soon as a person resorts back to good works to maintain their standing with Christ, the grace of God no longer applies, and the person replaces the unearned righteousness of Christ with self-righteousness which are as filthy rags in God's sight.

We are under the New Covenant which is between the Father and Christ. All previous covenants were just a shadow of what was to come, and therefore have now been fulfilled in Christ. To come under the New Covenant the believer puts his or her faith in Christ alone without the inclusion of good works (observance of the Law). To seek redemption through observance of the Law is to put one's trust in an obsolete convenant that God no longer recognises.

 

[marks]

So you mean chastening purely for spiritual growth's sake, not because we have done anything wrong? I do believe sufferings can do a greater work in us, yes, but I just don't know what passages of scripture could be used to support it... other than the Book of Job, and the cripple waiting his whole life at the pool to be healed.

Maybe a way to understand how I see this . . . I think of life as a spectrum, minor afflictions for minor adjustments, major afflictions for major adjustments.

I went though it a few years back, in a big way. There were lots of things I could point to in my life that were wrong, but underneath it all was a very stubborn self-reliance, and it was that God was after, as I understand it.

Much love!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Yes, because I don't believe I am walking in anything so severe that it would incur judgment. I suppose that could change if I started getting really stupid, but my main problem is a fierce temper. If I continued to walk in it and not forgive certain situations, this would be a form of disobedience before Him that He might not tolerate. But my saving grace is that I am generally very forgiving, even if it can be hard for me sometimes with those I am especially close to, or if they are especially insulting in some way.

Why are you asking?

Just to clarify: Do you actually believe that after being regenerated by God's grace through faith in Christ, are you seeking to maintain your redemption through keeping some form of moral law?

 

[marks]

Yes, because I don't believe I am walking in anything so severe that it would incur judgment. I suppose that could change if I started getting really stupid, but my main problem is a fierce temper. If I continued to walk in it and not forgive certain situations, this would be a form of disobedience before Him that He might not tolerate. But my saving grace is that I am generally very forgiving, even if it can be hard for me sometimes with those I am especially close to, or if they are especially insulting in some way.

Why are you asking?

An uncontrolled temper is something that God intends to control, I think. The fruit of the Spirit makes that plain to me. I've become more patient and understanding with others as I've found need for people to be more patient and understanding with me, which has come much through physical issues.

Becoming infirm can require me to become more reliant on others. This can afford a greater appreciation for their mercy and patience, and has taught me much better how important that is.

Much love!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Sin that God cannot tolerate, I would think that means any sin, no? Isn't all sin condemned?

And don't we commit sins that seem to carry no negative consequence? No punishment or correction? Life goes on?

I suggest that the question of sin and punishment is over, and what we are dealing with is better described in the works of the flesh, contrasted to the fruit of the Spirit. Either we are walking in the Spirit, bearing the fruit grown in us by the Holy Spirit, or we allow the flesh to continue its works.

I suggest that God has a program for each one of us, of how He will renew us during the course of our lives, and by how much. He already knows how it's all going to work out.

I think God's disciplining of us (training to instill discipline) comes at all levels, from teaching us to not click on that porn, to valuing all people as our brothers and sisters, intent on protecting and sparing them from shame. Sometimes I think its about just editting that word out of our vocabulary, and sometimes it's about breaking that angry heart.

Jesus is unto us sanctification. I can trust Him for ALL the ups and downs in my life, to me it's all the same thing. I'm short on money, I trust Him for my sustinence. I'm short on strenth, I trust Him to be able to do what I need to do. I'm short on health, I trust Him for tomorrow.

Having enough money, I'll still need to trust Him, because it takes wings, and flies away. Having strength, having health, I still have to trust Him, these too can disappear in a moment.

I think that God is managing all of these things in His program to train me away from fleshy ways, to the spiritual way. So then God's intent to heal me isn't so much about whether I have the feeling of confidence, though it may be, but more to the point, whatever in God's wisdom is needed in my life, that's what He'll be doing.

Maybe I'll feel horrible over something I've done, and maybe some catastrophe happens, and maybe one has nothing to do with the other. Maybe God isn't doing anything about what I'm focused on, maybe He's working at a deeper level.

Much love!

What you are saying here is to do with developing sanctification, not redemption which has already been accomplished through God's grace through faith in Christ. There is no such thing as part-grace and part-works in maintaining our redemption. We seek to improve our sanctification because we are redeemed in Christ. The worst thing we can do is to turn away from faith in Christ alone and resort to works to further seek God's approval and acceptance.