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Featured So what's so new about the new Covenant, and is it better, really?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Backlit, Feb 12, 2021.

  1. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    See, I told you. You only know that the law can't save you. That's all you know about the law.
     
  2. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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    Actually he posted what the NT said about the law. So how can you say he does not know it? Everything he posted was true
     
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  3. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    He posted what I said was the only thing he knew about the law. He is like most in the church. They have been taught that the law is utterly done away with in it's entirety and in all shapes and forms and for all reasons. And, that it's the sin of works to think otherwise about it. He does not know anything about the law beyond what he posted.
     
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  4. amigo de christo

    amigo de christo Well-Known Member

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    We ought to very well rebuke those who err and warn the church not to err . Look at all those warnings
    God was giving to even the seven churches . The problem with this generation is that it no longer corrects hardly anything .
    And this is why the churches leavened so full of leaven . TIME to bring back the original pattern set by JESUS
    and later taught by the apostles . For sin has risen very full due to the failure of many leaders within christendom .
    And its true many of them are flat out false . But the false ones , even when they sneak in amongst churches
    COULD not overcome that church , IF that church KEPT the original pattern that Christ and the aposltes did .
    Every word recorded is for our own good . So let us learn our bibles well , heeding the SPIRIT and not the flesh .
    LET us heed THAT pattern .
     
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  5. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    Do you not accept that believers are under grace and not under law?
    .
     
  6. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Well-Known Member

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  7. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I accept that believers are under grace and not under the law. That means the believer is not under the power of the law to make them sin. That means the believer is not under the condemnation of the law when they sin. That means the believer does not have to keep the ceremonial worship requirements of the law in order to be in, and remain in covenant with God. It's because the believer is not under the law in all these ways that he is set free to keep and fulfill the law! Just as God said would happen in this New Covenant. Faith upholds the law.
     
  8. Blood Bought 1953

    Blood Bought 1953 Well-Known Member

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    Duh... You seem to be blatantly and obviously ignoring the few dozen OTHER things that were there.....what’s wrong with you?
     
  9. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't it Christ who fulfilled the law and the prophets, by which I mean he fulfilled the prophecies about him contained in the books of the law?

    I do not think it is the believer who fulfilled the law.
    .
    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  10. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    Prophecies About Jesus Old Testament Scripture New Testament Fulfilment
    1 Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20 Galatians 4:4
    2 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 Luke 2:4-6
    3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23 Luke 1:26-31
    4 Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3 Genesis 22:18 Matthew 1:1 Romans 9:5
    5 Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19 Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
    6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
    7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33 Hebrews 7:14
    8 Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13 Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33 Romans 1:3
    9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7 Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33 Hebrews 1:8-12
    10 Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
    11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
    12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
    13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
    14 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8 Isaiah 53:3 John 1:11 John 7:5
    15 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
    16 Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
    17 Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
    18 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
    19 Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
    20 Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4 Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
    21 Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-19
    22 Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6
    23 Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6 Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 27:37 Mark 11:7-11
    24 Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:16
    25 Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9 Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48 Matthew 26:14-16
    26 Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
    27 Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:57-58
    28 Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mark 15:4-5
    29 Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
    30 Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19 Psalm 69:4 John 15:24-25
    31 Messiah would be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38 Mark 15:27-28
    32 Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34 John 19:28-30
    33 Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16 Zechariah 12:10 John 20:25-27
    34 Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
    35 Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34 Matthew 27:35-36
    36 Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46 Psalm 34:20 John 19:33-36
    37 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
    38 Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
    39 Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
    40 Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
    41 Messiah would resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10 Psalm 49:15 Matthew 28:2-7 Acts 2:22-32
    42 Messiah would ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19 Luke 24:51
    43 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18 Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19 Matthew 22:44
    44 Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8

    (Sources: 100 Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus: Messianic Prophecies Made Before the Birth of Christ by Rose Publishing; Book of Bible Lists by H.L. Willmington; NKJV Study Bible; Life Application Study Bible.)

    HOW ANY PERSON OF THE JEWISH FAITH CAN SAY "JESUS IS NOT THE PROMISED MESSIAH" I SHALL NEVER KNOW.​
    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  11. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    CHRIST CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW

    AND HE DID
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  12. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    Christ's fulfillment of the law of sacrifice, law of Sabbath Rest, etc. are applied to the believer through their faith. What remains of the law beyond that is kept by us through our literal obedience, but still by the power of faith, nonetheless. It is in this way that faith upholds the law, not destroys and casts it down as the church thinks it does.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  13. Ferris Bueller

    Ferris Bueller Well-Known Member

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    All you know about is the condemnation of the law.
    I thought you were going somewhere useful when you listed this.....

    1 Timothy
    The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

    But then I saw you were not citing something good about the law after all....

    It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

    So let's back up. Do you have any clue whatsoever what Paul was talking about when he said....

    8 ...the law is good if one uses it properly. 1 Timothy 1:8

    Can you think of even just one example in the NT where the law is good, being used properly, where it is not a source of condemnation and the attempt to save yourself by your works (which seems to be the only way you can understand it)?
     
  14. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    I feel the need to post this, it is a little complicated, but it may help the discussion, and then I shall go to bed. Night-night all.

    C. Christ Fulfills the Law (Matthew 5:17-20)
    5:17, 18 Most revolutionary leaders sever all ties with the past and repudiate the traditional, existing order. Not so the Lord Jesus. He upheld the Law of Moses and insisted that it must be fulfilled. Jesus had not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill them. He clearly insisted that not one jot or one tittle would pass from the law until it was completely fulfilled. The jot, or yod, is the smallest letter in the Hebrew alphabet; the tittle is a small mark or projection that serves to distinguish one letter from another, much as the bottom stroke of a capital E distinguishes it from a capital F. Jesus believed in the literal inspiration of the Bible, even in what might seem small unimportant details. Nothing in Scripture, even the smallest stroke, is without significance.

    It is important to notice that Jesus did not say that the law would never pass away. He said it would not pass away till all was fulfilled. This distinction has ramifications for the believer today, and since the believer's relation to the law is rather complicated, we are going to take time to summarize the Bible's teaching on this subject.

    EXCURSUS ON THE BELIEVER'S RELATION TO THE LAW
    The law is that system of legislation given by God through Moses to the nation of Israel. The entire body of the law is found in Exodus 20-31, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, though its essence is embodied in the Ten Commandments.

    The law was not given as a means of salvation (Act_13:39; Rom_3:20 a; Gal_2:16, Gal_2:21; Gal_3:11; it was designed to show people their sinfulness (Rom_3:20 b; Rom_5:20; Rom_7:7; 1Co_15:56; Gal_3:19) and then drive them to God for His gracious salvation. It was given to the nation of Israel, even though it contains moral principles which are valid for people in every age (Rom_2:14-15). God tested Israel under the law as a sample of the human race, and Israel's guilt proved the world's guilt (Rom_3:19).

    The law had attached to it the penalty of death (Gal_3:10); and to break one command was to be guilty of all (Jas_2:10). Since people had broken the law, they were under the curse of death. God's righteousness and holiness demanded that the penalty be paid. It was for this reason that Jesus came into the world: to pay the penalty by His death. He died as a Substitute for guilty lawbreakers, even though He Himself was sinless. He did not wave the law aside; rather He met the full demands of the law by fulfilling its strict requirements in His life and in His death. Thus, the gospel does not overthrow the law; it upholds the law and shows how the law's demands have been fully satisfied by Christ's redemptive work.

    Therefore, the person who trusts in Jesus is no longer under the law; he is under grace (Rom_6:14). He is dead to the law through the work of Christ. The penalty of the law must be paid only once; since Christ paid the penalty, the believer does not have to. It is in this sense that the law has faded away for the Christian (2Co_3:7-11). The law was a tutor until Christ came, but after salvation, this tutor is no longer needed (Gal_3:24-25).

    Yet, while the Christian is not under the law, that doesn't mean he is lawless. He is bound by a stronger chain than law because he is under the law of Christ (1Co_9:21). His behavior is molded, not by fear of punishment, but by a loving desire to please his Savior. Christ has become his rule of life (Joh_13:15; Joh_15:12; Eph_5:1-2; 1Jn_2:6; 1Jn_3:16).

    A common question in a discussion of the believer's relation to the law is, “Should I obey the Ten Commandments?” The answer is that certain principles contained in the law are of lasting relevance. It is always wrong to steal, to covet, or to murder. Nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the NT, with an important distinction—they are not given as law (with penalty attached), but as training in righteousness for the people of God (2Ti_3:16 b). The one commandment not repeated is the Sabbath law: Christians are never taught to keep the Sabbath (i.e., the seventh day of the week, Saturday).

    The ministry of the law to unsaved people has not ended: “But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully” (1Ti_1:8). Its lawful use is to produce the knowledge of sin and thus lead to repentance. But the law is not for those who are already saved: “The law is not made for a righteous person” (1Ti_1:9).

    The righteousness demanded by the law is fulfilled in those “who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” (Rom_8:4). In fact, the teachings of our Lord in the Sermon on the Mount set a higher standard than that set by the law. For instance, the law said, “Do not murder”; Jesus said, “Do not even hate.” So the Sermon on the Mount not only upholds the Law and the Prophets but it amplifies them and develops their deeper implications.

    (Believers Bible)
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    See 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17; Romans 6:6 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (kjv), (NLT).

    You are saying that in the face of the evidence (So what's so new about the new Covenant, and is it better, really?).

    The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer when he walks not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Just give up and consent to the fact that I am a sinner and am going to sin no matter what?

    To me, that would be the same as saying to God and would amount to saying, "God, You know, I am a sinner and I am going to sin no matter what..."

    It amounts to rebelling against God's desire for you that you not sin (1 Corinthians 15:34, for example).

    Have you never read that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft?
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    If one has the Holy Spirit, will he not live in such a way as to exemplify such verses as James 1:25?

    Jas 1:22, But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    Jas 1:23, For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    Jas 1:24, For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    Jas 1:25, But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
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  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    However, you say elsewhere, that "You and I both sin every hour of every day."

    So then, if you do what you want to every hour of the day, what you want to do is sin.
     
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I certainly don't think that I am justified through keeping the letter of the law.

    However, because I have been justified by faith in Christ, I now have the Holy Spirit; and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me when I walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. I am not saying that I am justified by that (although, Romans 6:22 might have something to say on the matter).

    I have been delivered from the condemnation of the law and am free to walk no longer after the letter but according to the spirit of what was written (Romans 7:6).

    Walking as a law-abiding citizen of the kingdom of heaven is the result for me of being justified by faith in Christ (Romans 8:4, Galatians 5:22-23).

    It is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is righteousness indeed.

    That is absolutely correct and biblical (Romans 3:20, Galatians 2:16).
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    We have been foreordained by God to walk in specific works (Ephesians 2:10) and it is a sin of omission to have the Holy Spirit lead you to do something and then you fail to do it.

    But if God has not foreordained that work, for me to fail to do it does not qualify as a sin of omission.

    If I have no opportunity to work in a soup kitchen, or if I do have the opportunity but there is a more righteous thing that I can do instead of that, and I do it, and do not work in the soup kitchen, then I have not committed a sin of omission in not working in the soup kitchen.
     
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